Do HP altitude waivers apply to MPR?

[JordanT]

If you have a class 1 rocket which is high performance, is there any concern about "breaking" your FAA Class 2 waiver, provided that all the normal launch conditions are met for low power flights? Or does getting a waiver (7711-2) with an altitude limit also apply to class 1 rockets?

I suspect the answer is that it wouldn't apply, but stranger interpretations have been made in the past. I ask because two close-ish fields have typical waivers of 4000' and 4500', and one of my current projects may be above that.

 

[gdiscenza]

Not an expert here, but I suspect that the waiver applies to airspace more than HPR/MPR, and as such, the restrictions apply in either case.

So, regardless of the motor, don't bust the waiver.

G.D.

 

[mikec]

You don't need a waiver at all for class 1 rockets, so why would a waiver apply to class 1 rockets?

 

[samb]

You don't need a waiver at all for class 1 rockets, so why would a waiver apply to class 1 rockets?

'Cause if you hit an altitude in a certain airspace you might be asking for trouble ? Depends on if anybody's watching I guess. I suspect if you tried to get an official answer it would be the same as gdiscenza's: "don't bust the waiver."

 

[JordanT]

In my mind, it comes down to the fact that we are agreeing that we won't fly rockets heavier than 3.3lbs higher than XXXX feet. I'm still curious how RSOs would view this - if you had a 4000 or 4500' ceiling, and I had a F engine simming to 4800' - do you even want to know?

 

[mikec]

I think the situation is different if you are at an organized launch with a waiver in place. There you should probably honor the waiver, not because the FAA requires you to but because if there was an incident, the club would likely be caught in the crossfire despite the rules.

 

[Peter Olivola]

It doesn't matter what's in anyone's mind or what anyone thinks. If you fly a less than 1500 gram rocket with a motor not exceeding the specified propellant weight limit, etc., you do not need a waiver and are not bound by a waiver at a waivered launch.

 

[samb]

It doesn't matter what's in anyone's mind or what anyone thinks. If you fly a less than 1500 gram rocket with a motor not exceeding the specified propellant weight limit, etc., you do not need a waiver and are not bound by a waiver at a waivered launch.

So no gray area here at all ? In JordanT's original scenario, if he busts a mile+ with his class 1 rocket and the flight is noticed by/reported to the sky police it's no harm/no foul ?
I think I'd rather not test it. Here's the rule as excerpted from the NAR website:

Class 1 rockets include what used to be known as model and large model rockets... (the class 1 specs follow)...

Under the old rules launching large model rockets required prior notification of the FAA. Under the new rules no such notification is required. So long as the general operating limitations at 14 CFR 101.23 listed below are followed, they can be freely launched.

a.You must operate an amateur rocket in such a manner that it:

1.Is launched on a suborbital trajectory;
2.When launched, must not cross into the territory of a foreign country unless an agreement is in place between the United States and the country
of concern;
3.Is unmanned; and
4.Does not create a hazard to persons, property, or other aircraft.

b.The FAA may specify additional operating limitations necessary to ensure that air traffic is not adversely affected, and public safety is not jeopardized.


Seems to me that those highlighted points could be the basis for some grief over a waiver busting class 1 flight.

 

[Peter Olivola]

No gray area. If you are following either the NAR or TRA codes for flight operations you won't be creating a hazard to persons, property or other aircraft. The FAA can only specify those additional limitations within the context of a waiver. As stated, rockets below the threshold requiring a waiver can not be further restricted.

So no gray area here at all ? In JordanT's original scenario, if he busts a mile+ with his class 1 rocket and the flight is noticed by/reported to the sky police it's no harm/no foul ?
I think I'd rather not test it. Here's the rule as excerpted from the NAR website:

Class 1 rockets include what used to be known as model and large model rockets... (the class 1 specs follow)...

Under the old rules launching large model rockets required prior notification of the FAA. Under the new rules no such notification is required. So long as the general operating limitations at 14 CFR 101.23 listed below are followed, they can be freely launched.

a.You must operate an amateur rocket in such a manner that it:

1.Is launched on a suborbital trajectory;
2.When launched, must not cross into the territory of a foreign country unless an agreement is in place between the United States and the country
of concern;
3.Is unmanned; and
4.Does not create a hazard to persons, property, or other aircraft.

b.The FAA may specify additional operating limitations necessary to ensure that air traffic is not adversely affected, and public safety is not jeopardized.


Seems to me that those highlighted points could be the basis for some grief over a waiver busting class 1 flight.

 

[bobkrech]

No gray area. If you are following either the NAR or TRA codes for flight operations you won't be creating a hazard to persons, property or other aircraft. The FAA can only specify those additional limitations within the context of a waiver. As stated, rockets below the threshold requiring a waiver can not be further restricted.

Peter is correct. There are no grey areas. Waivers do not apply to Class 1 rockets. Period.

The current FAR 101 regulations are here. Read them.

Bob

 

[samb]

No gray area. If you are following either the NAR or TRA codes for flight operations you won't be creating a hazard to persons, property or other aircraft. The FAA can only specify those additional limitations within the context of a waiver. As stated, rockets below the threshold requiring a waiver can not be further restricted.

Thanks for the definitive reply Peter. Sounds like a loophole to me but I'm glad to learn better. I haven't personally tested a waiver limit with anything I flown yet and probably won't do so in the near future.



Same for Bob, thanks for the education.

 

[RandyT0001]

Peter is correct. There are no grey areas. Waivers do not apply to Class 1 rockets. Period.

The current FAR 101 regulations are here. Read them.

Bob

Am I reading this right because it seems like waivers may not apply but restrictions on airspace do?

"§ 101.21 Applicability.
(a) This subpart applies to operating unmanned rockets. However, a person operating an unmanned rocket within a restricted area must comply with § 101.25(b)(7)(ii) and with any additional limitations imposed by the using or controlling agency."

If so one should check with skyvector.com to see if your launch site is within FAA controlled airspace. If it is located with a class E airspace then you are limited to 700 feet altitude regardless of rocket Class. Other areas might be limited to 1200 feet. Most of the restrictions are located with a few miles of bigger airports, including the one at Blacksburg, VA.

 

[FastCargo]

"Restricted area" is defined as a Restricted Area.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Restricted_airspace

This has nothing to do with Class B,C,D or E airspace.

Previous thread on the subject:

https://www.rocketryforum.com/showthread.php?28939-When-does-the-FAA-need-to-be-notified

FC