DIY Ignitors

[jderimig]

In the timespan since making that post, mailordered a couple pounds of Antimony Trisulfide. On my own will test that formula,

You will find you will have made 'strike anywhere' igniters. Try it.

 

[Hospital_Rocket]

Contact me. I can provide finished igniters or kits.

What he said. Unless you like making igniters, David makes some of the best there is. I just wish he made one that I could get to work with some of my smaller C-slots. A twiggy is close, however it can be a PITA to feed it up the slot.

Two Superfatboys will light even the most stubborn Green Gorilla.

Dave - any word on the ATF front?

 

[reved]

Was rather suprised Potassium Chlorate turned-out being the oxidizer (in this formula anyways).
What did you think it was? - Moderator
------------------------------------------------

As far as oxidizers, it mighta been....

Ammonium Dichromate
Ammonium Perchlorate
Barium Chlorate
Barium Chromate
Barium Nitrate
Calcium Sulfate
Guanadine Nitrate
Potassium Chlorate
Potassium Dichromate
Potassium Nitrate
Potassium Perchlorate
Potassium Sulfate
Sodium Nitrate
Sodium Sulfate
Strontium Nitrate
Strontium Sulfate

Pick one! Any card in the deck! There are lots of Oxidizers available.

I didn't believe it would be the most unstable one available for open-purchase.

 

[cwbullet]

As far as the gold, I will use it for cash. I cold not believe they were going to throw it away. The silver wire is more plentiful, but if it is pure, I may have to do the same.

I also came across a box of 36 and 60 inch parachutes in the trash. I think they were off destroyed flares.

 

[reved]

SCORE!!!

Be happy and gloat.
You deserve it for that find.
:surprised:

 

[cwbullet]

That is what I thought.

What gauge of wire do you have? I have some 23,24,26, 28, 30. I have a lot of 24 gauge cat 5 and 6 cable that I can take apart.

 

[reved]

I'm unsure of the exact-gauge wire inside, but the zip-wire currently being used cuts insulation off cleanly with 24-gauge strippers. The solid copper wire inside appears to be (perhaps) 26-gauge.

For the "copper igniter-wire", use an 18 - 20 gauge cutter to strip insulation, but there are dozens of super-fine wires packed in those strands. Don't really wanna guess what THAT gauge might be. It's about on par with the thickness of human hair.. .:egg:

 

[quickburst]

What he said. Unless you like making igniters, David makes some of the best there is. I just wish he made one that I could get to work with some of my smaller C-slots. A twiggy is close, however it can be a PITA to feed it up the slot.

Two Superfatboys will light even the most stubborn Green Gorilla.

Dave - any word on the ATF front?

I'm good with the ATF. They will not let me sell to folks with out a LEUP, while they allow others to do so. That's all I have to cry about, I guess I'm OK.

Last I heard I'm not allowed to sell to non-permitees due to the weight of my igniters ..... go figure.

 

[quickburst]

Just so you guys will know ..... Potassium Chlorate is used in the manufacture of most e-matches.

It plays a big role in rocketry.

 

[Chrisn]

Was rather suprised Potassium Chlorate turned-out being the oxidizer (in this formula anyways).
What did you think it was? - Moderator
------------------------------------------------

As far as oxidizers, it mighta been....

I didn't believe it would be the most unstable one available for open-purchase.

Potassium Chlorate's instability is the key to making it an effective oxidizer

 

[reved]

But we just can't talk about it.

PM if you wish.

 

[cwbullet]

I doubt the ATF rules and regulations with ever lighten. The large lumbering beast is similar to the military. It makes changes slowly if every, unless something bad happens and then it overreacts.

In the military, that usually leads to the hiring of another Department of Defense civilian that does very little but spend time trying to justify the reason they have a job.

In my work, we have 3 civilians doing the job one military officer and SGT used to do and those guys only worked 9 am to 3 pm. Well, my pager just went off, so the beast must be hungry.

 

[m85476585]

I doubt the ATT rules and regulations with ever lighten. The large lumbering beast is similar to the military. It makes changes slowly if every, unless something bad happens and then it overreacts.

I just hate how the phone company is regulating rocketry. I tried to order some igniters and they just dropped my call. I might have to go through the hassle of getting an ATT permit to continue rocketry. My only problem is that I don't know where I can get a type IV magazine for my phone, and the yellow book is not clear whether or not I need to keep my cell phone in a magazine. Also, I don't understand why I need to get approval from the fire department to keep it in my house.

 

[reved]

The sarcasm is appreciated.

 

[cwbullet]

And that was after correcting the spelling. Darn bifocals.

 

[quickburst]

I just hate how the phone company is regulating rocketry. I tried to order some igniters and they just dropped my call. I might have to go through the hassle of getting an ATT permit to continue rocketry. My only problem is that I don't know where I can get a type IV magazine for my phone, and the yellow book is not clear whether or not I need to keep my cell phone in a magazine. Also, I don't understand why I need to get approval from the fire department to keep it in my house.

Ok now I have tea splattered all over my new laptop.

 

[uncle_vanya]

1. Sometimes, even after checking resistance, my Igniterman igniters didn't light(as high as 30% failure ratio). Quick Dip has been 100% reliable, even in airstarts.

Want to know why?

The reason is simple, the oxidizer or some other component contained in the conductive pyrogen attacts (corrodes) the bare copper conductors. This increases resistance as the igniter ages. In other words it would have a limited shelf life. Corrosion adds resistance, resistance increases until it overcomes the supply current.

This is common in conductive pyrogens (even in my own).

There is always a trade:
Want easy? OK but the price is dependability.

Want dependability? OK but the price is time.

Pick which one you want, you can't have both.

Terry McCreary was at Southern Thunder 2008 and gave an igniter class at the hotel pool. In his discussion he was very clear on this point. If you do not solder you should not expect the igniters to last very long. His estimate was about a 90 day lifespan for wrapped igniters using his formula that he shared based on Potassium Nitrate.

 

[m85476585]

Interesting. I have some igniters I made with Firefox conductive primer, and after probably two years, they still work fine. I have had no failures so far, having used probably 20 out of a batch of 50. I haven't used many of them this year, so the failure rate might be a little higher.

 

[uncle_vanya]

Interesting. I have some igniters I made with Firefox conductive primer, and after probably two years, they still work fine. I have had no failures so far, having used probably 20 out of a batch of 50. I haven't used many of them this year, so the failure rate might be a little higher.

Maybe that pyrogen is not as oxidizing as the formula that Terry shared? I have no idea - I'm just going with the expert on this one until I have other data. To date I have made exactly zero igniters.

 

[reved]

In my case, would like as many of the chemical components in launches to be as DIY as possible. So don't mind wrapping & dipping (and experimenting with) homebrew pyrogen formulas.

Though the failure-rate is (currently) somewhat higher than I'd feel comfortable with at a launch site, have "tweaked" the Skylighter Ematch dip-kit to ignite sugar propellants.

Will stick with making igniters only a few days before a static-test from now on. Hopefully that'll cut down on the "corrosion-failure-factor".

I Might get to L2 at the next launch, so can quit scaring the neighbors with backyard static-tests. :no:

 

[2muchstuff]

Maybe that pyrogen is not as oxidizing as the formula that Terry shared? I have no idea - I'm just going with the expert on this one until I have other data. To date I have made exactly zero igniters.

I have also used the Firefox conductive pyrogen - I ordered my first kit in 2003. Some of my ignitors are nearly 5 years old. I've not had a single one fail to light, and only a couple fail to light a motor. And these are super-thin ignitors used with up to 29mm motors. I've used several dozen that were at least three years old.

I've got Dr. McCreary's book, and he clearly knows propellant. But can he know for certainty that every conductive pyrogen has a short life span? You now have two people who have actually made ignitors that can provide experience that seems to contradict his observation. How much empirical data will you need before you change your mind?


tms

 

[quickburst]

I have also used the Firefox conductive pyrogen - I ordered my first kit in 2003. Some of my ignitors are nearly 5 years old. I've not had a single one fail to light, and only a couple fail to light a motor. And these are super-thin ignitors used with up to 29mm motors. I've used several dozen that were at least three years old.

I've got Dr. McCreary's book, and he clearly knows propellant. But can he know for certainty that every conductive pyrogen has a short life span? You now have two people who have actually made ignitors that can provide experience that seems to contradict his observation. How much empirical data will you need before you change your mind?
tms

No. There are exceptions to every rule.

 

[uncle_vanya]

I've got Dr. McCreary's book, and he clearly knows propellant. But can he know for certainty that every conductive pyrogen has a short life span? You now have two people who have actually made ignitors that can provide experience that seems to contradict his observation. How much empirical data will you need before you change your mind?

But I have none. I have reports from others but no direct experience. Also I have two experts (Quickburst counts - right?) that say this is likley to occur. Sure it may not - and when I'm on the ground who cares. At a busy launch or for airstart I will not take the chance. My point wasn't that no one should try it - my point was that I'm going to hang back and watch the others do this and as I come up to speed I'll assume that I have a limited lifespan with what I am going to dip until proven otherwise.

 

[quickburst]

But I have none. I have reports from others but no direct experience. Also I have two experts (Quickburst counts - right?) that say this is likley to occur. Sure it may not - and when I'm on the ground who cares. At a busy launch or for airstart I will not take the chance. My point wasn't that no one should try it - my point was that I'm going to hang back and watch the others do this and as I come up to speed I'll assume that I have a limited lifespan with what I am going to dip until proven otherwise.

That would be the safe bet.

There are exceptions, one post mentioned a conductive primer which was graphite and a binder (glue?) don't remember. In this case oxidizer and other components were not in contact with the copper leads. The primers only function was to provide heat. The heat generated by the primer lit a secondary pyrogen which is applied over the primer. He stated that he had seen success with his igniters that were several years old. I'm sure he is correct and he has found a way around the chemical oxidization/corrosion of copper.

Good job. The down side (and there always is one) is current requirement. I'd be willing to wager his igniters are real current hogs. Only a guess, and I could be way off base here. But all is well, he is using them with success and that is all that matters.

 

[Necromancer]

I just hate how the phone company is regulating rocketry. I tried to order some igniters and they just dropped my call. I might have to go through the hassle of getting an ATT permit to continue rocketry. My only problem is that I don't know where I can get a type IV magazine for my phone, and the yellow book is not clear whether or not I need to keep my cell phone in a magazine. Also, I don't understand why I need to get approval from the fire department to keep it in my house.

You too!!! I was wondering why my calls were getting dropped everytime i tried ordering a skidmark!!!! :lol:

 

[Pem Tech]

That would be the safe bet.

There are exceptions, one post mentioned a conductive primer which was graphite and a binder (glue?) don't remember. In this case oxidizer and other components were not in contact with the copper leads. The primers only function was to provide heat. The heat generated by the primer lit a secondary pyrogen which is applied over the primer. He stated that he had seen success with his igniters that were several years old. I'm sure he is correct and he has found a way around the chemical oxidization/corrosion of copper.

Good job. The down side (and there always is one) is current requirement. I'd be willing to wager his igniters are real current hogs. Only a guess, and I could be way off base here. But all is well, he is using them with success and that is all that matters.

Powdered graphite and nitrate clear dope, works like a trunk monkey.
And yes, they are only used on a 12 volt launch system, for staging or air starts it is ematches all the way.

 

[reved]

Currently "testing" different ignitor/ematch experiments. Made a couple different "pyrogen/primer mixtures" of my own, dried & sealed them in NC Lacquer. See if they deteriorate in a couple weeks.

Primed a number with commercial Skylighter pyrogen & DIY DarkFlash, using both NiChrome ematch blanks and DIY copper-wrap filaments. Then in different batches, have multiple-dipped into "H3" pyrogen, thicker mixes of DarkFlash, along with the experimental pyrogen formulas.

And actually, EVERY SINGLE formula for a lower-voltage Igniter or Ematch pyrogen I've seen (to date anyways, I'm sure there're more) has included Potassium Chlorate as a major ingredient. Confused why other rocketeers would disagree that Chlorate doesn't have any use in rocketry when few engines would ignite reliably without it.

 

[bigone5500]

Seeing all of this makes me wonder if one still needs a LEUP for homemade ignitors...such as those for E-G motors...not I and up.

 

[kandsrockets]

Here is a video of my ignitors I make.

https://www.kandsrockets.com/ignitors/hjignitors.wmv

 

[bigone5500]

I would like more info on using ping pong balls in ignitors. Where is a good source of information on this?