# ~Diary of a Crapien~

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#### Scott Evil

##### Well-Known Member
An 8.625"x 144" scratch build upscale of Crapien I. (No, not the FisKits HoJo parked on my new Aeropack retainer, the one to the left )

A 75/54mm central + 3x 38mm airstart cluster to be built strong but lightweight enough for <5120 NS.

More to follow...op:

EDIT: As of 03-01-10 or so, I have decided to go ahead plan this as my L3 Cert build due its size and complexity. (edit date: 03-15-10 )

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#### Scott Evil

##### Well-Known Member
...Oh yea, ...a photo

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#### sodmeister

##### Well-Known Member
WOW....your wife lets you build rockets in the living room ?

Last time i tried that ,I got one of these ---->>> :bangpan:

Ill be watching your build.

P

#### Scott Evil

##### Well-Known Member
WOW....your wife lets you build rockets in the living room ?

Last time i tried that ,I got one of these ---->>> :bangpan:

Ill be watching your build.

P
Living room, Dining room, Family room, Utility room, Garage and of course as pictured...My Secret Underground Rocket Building Room of Doom...All just a matter of gradual acclimation and training...:dark:

Anyways, not much rocket stuff done this morning unless you count shoveling the driveway and hitting the hardware store for some carnauba wax for the body tube mandrels and a fancy new adjustable workstation clamp thingy.

I did manage to get a quick coat of wax on a staged body tube though. Hopefully this will help keep the epoxy from permeating the cardboard tubing too much and aid in mandrel removal/Dihydrogen monoxide soak out process once the fiberglass layup is done.

Here's a couple shots of how I have it set up for tomorrow mornings after work glass o' rama.

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#### Scott Evil

##### Well-Known Member
Hmmmm...How can we learn anything from a build thread without a few good crash and burn episodes?

Here's how the "glass o' rama" went.

The first single wrap "inner veil" layer of (2oz?) glass went on beautifully. I mixed 5 pumps of Proline but I think next time I'll use 6 or 7 as I found myself really scrounging for more resin towards the end.

I let that layer tack up for an hour or so then set up the 2 layers of "meat and potatoes" glass to get rolled on.

With 18 pumps of resin, four hands on the job, my stash of latex gloves depleted and only one layer applied (starving for resin again), I'll chalk this one up as a learning curve for now. See results pictured below.

Plan B in the works.

#### dixontj93060

##### Well-Known Member
Hmmm... I may be wrong, but I thought with concrete forms you peeled off the outside cover layer to expose the cardboard and get a better epoxy bond? Is the yellow brand/packaging still there? (Can't really see too well on my Blackberry.)

#### Scott Evil

##### Well-Known Member
Hmmm... I may be wrong, but I thought with concrete forms you peeled off the outside cover layer to expose the cardboard and get a better epoxy bond? Is the yellow brand/packaging still there? (Can't really see too well on my Blackberry.)

Actually, my original intent was to get a good solid fiberglass lay up around the concrete forms then soak the cardboard forms out with water, theoretically resulting in strong body tubes that I "roughly calculated" to be 60~70% the gross weight of said tube just lightly glassed over.

Once again, a learning curve plus a bonus humbling in my heavy weight fiberglassing skills.

At this point, a freshly peeled QuikTube with a thin layer of glass on it might be just what the doctor ordered material/R&D cost vs weight benefits considered.

On with Plan B...

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#### Handeman

##### Well-Known Member
TRF Supporter
I understand what you wanted with the wraps and soaking the tube back out. What I don't understand is the single wrap of thin glass. I've always put a single piece that does at least a double wrap. Works much better.

What kind of glass cloth was that? I've never seen anything like that with the large and small threads. I would recommend a single piece of 6 - 8 oz that wraps 2 or 3 times around the tube for your first layer. If you soak the tube out later, the inside surface of the glass would have the shape/texture of the tube. You wouldn't have to finish it the way you would an outer surface. You don't need the thin layer on the inside like you would use on the outside as a sanding vail.

We all learn from failures, this time we all learned at your expense. Next time I'm sure it will be at one of ours.

Good luck and keep the lessons coming!

#### Scott Evil

##### Well-Known Member
I understand what you wanted with the wraps and soaking the tube back out. What I don't understand is the single wrap of thin glass. I've always put a single piece that does at least a double wrap. Works much better.

What kind of glass cloth was that? I've never seen anything like that with the large and small threads. I would recommend a single piece of 6 - 8 oz that wraps 2 or 3 times around the tube for your first layer. If you soak the tube out later, the inside surface of the glass would have the shape/texture of the tube. You wouldn't have to finish it the way you would an outer surface. You don't need the thin layer on the inside like you would use on the outside as a sanding vail.

We all learn from failures, this time we all learned at your expense. Next time I'm sure it will be at one of ours.

Good luck and keep the lessons coming!
The simple answer is I got exactly what I purchased for the project, a couple 50" wide rolls of glass, some "veil" weight interior/exterior glass and some "Heavy" weight for in between. Hind site being 20-20, I think you're absolutly right, a good roll up of mid-weight glass with sanding veil on top would have worked out much better.

Not a total loss, I still have plenty of glass and some resin left and some of us (well, me least) are a wee bit smater now.

I made the failed glassed tube go stand in the corner and I'm off to go get another 8 5/8" Quik Tube from the good ol' boys at the local lumber yard. Yeah, you know The Look...may I'll buy a chainsaw or two to throw 'em off.

#### Handeman

##### Well-Known Member
TRF Supporter
Make sure you post what you do and how you do it with the new tubes. I'm tossing around L3 ideas and how this works out could have a definate impact.

#### Scott Evil

##### Well-Known Member
A mondo layup of fiberglass over to be soaked away quicktube mandrels theory currently negated for this build.

Replacement 8 5/8" QuickTube acquired sans multiple chainsaws.

These tubes are stored horizonally at the local lumberyard so they are far from being perfectly round when I get them.

Some jigs to keep the tubes round need to be made before any glass goes on.

Five ID/OD measurements taken from each of the three tubes at random theta and then averaged out to establish reliable jigs/couplers/Nosecone shoulders/etc dimensions.

#### Scott Evil

##### Well-Known Member
Been playing with my new Featherweight Raven while hunt and pecking my last post, nice product Adrian, ...Raven Rocks!

#### Scott Evil

##### Well-Known Member
Once I have some real life dimensional values/weights as to how the second version of these tubes turn out, I'll be a little closer to presenting an acurate RockSim File here.

#### kullas

##### Well-Known Member
Looks good so far. I to am watching your glassing job. This is something im wanting to learn a little more about before i make the first step to doing my first fiberglass tube

#### patelldp

##### Well-Known Member
Since I assume that you will be fabricating the nosecone and couplers yourself, I recommend that you glass the insides of the mouths of the tubes. I have worked with Quicktube before and it has a tendency to peel on the inside, as they are really only designed to be peeled away. I recommend that you lay in some glass on the inside of the ends of the tubes, and blow up some huge balloons right after wetting out the glass. This will be sure to make the tubes round where it is important, as well as make the ends more robust and less prone to peeling. Then create your couplers and nosecone to the new dimensions of the glassed tube.

Just my $0.02 #### Handeman ##### Well-Known Member TRF Supporter Since I assume that you will be fabricating the nosecone and couplers yourself, I recommend that you glass the insides of the mouths of the tubes. I have worked with Quicktube before and it has a tendency to peel on the inside, as they are really only designed to be peeled away. I recommend that you lay in some glass on the inside of the ends of the tubes, and blow up some huge balloons right after wetting out the glass. This will be sure to make the tubes round where it is important, as well as make the ends more robust and less prone to peeling. Then create your couplers and nosecone to the new dimensions of the glassed tube. Just my$0.02

That is a really good suggestions. I've been eyeing the quick tube at the local HD. I'll have to file that for when I use the Quick tubes.

Do you think soaking the ends with a 60 minute laminating epoxy would work? I'm thinking it would work like using CA on the smaller tubes/rockets. I've had very good luck using CA on the ends of tubes.

#### kandsrockets

##### Well-Known Member
That is a really good suggestions. I've been eyeing the quick tube at the local HD. I'll have to file that for when I use the Quick tubes.

Do you think soaking the ends with a 60 minute laminating epoxy would work? I'm thinking it would work like using CA on the smaller tubes/rockets. I've had very good luck using CA on the ends of tubes.
All you need to do is soak it with epoxy and you do not need the glass. I thin down my laminating epoxy with some alcohol so it soaks in good. After it is cured you can sand the inside to a smooth finish. Never had one peel after doing this to it.

#### patelldp

##### Well-Known Member
All you need to do is soak it with epoxy and you do not need the glass. I thin down my laminating epoxy with some alcohol so it soaks in good. After it is cured you can sand the inside to a smooth finish. Never had one peel after doing this to it.
The glass was meant to keep the tube round, as he is having an issue of out-of-round tubes...

#### Scott Evil

##### Well-Known Member
Dan and Scott, Thanks!

That didn't occur to me. It makes sense that the ends will get pretty frazzled just from test fitting parts back and forth.

Seems I'll have to peel or aggressively sand (at least the MMT) as the inside layer has a very waxy texture to it more applicable to peeling away from concrete than bonding to centering rings and bulkheads.

I'll let the sand vs. peel/ internal glass vs. just thinned epoxy rattle around in my head a bit.

Goal for the morning is to get new cheapy adjustable work stand assembled, and try out my new RotoZip and circle cutting attachment on some scrap 5/8" oak plywood. Hopefully I can get them respectfully round enough for the afore mentioned jigs.

#### Scott Evil

##### Well-Known Member
Some "discoveries"...

A) My sampling/averaging of ID tube diameters does not truly represent an average "fit-able" product.

B) a RotoZip with the circle attachment is questionable compared to a careful eye and a jigsaw finish wise (I think?)...I picked up some better bits for the RotoZip, hopefully these and a little more experience using the tool will not leave such a "chunky" finish. I'll try again before busting out the jigsaw.

C) Wow! I don't even have build able body tubes yet!

D) Fortunately, I'm just in "practice" mode attempting to create rounding jigs for glassing said tubes.

E) BTW, hawging plywood disks to cordless drill and attempting to power sand them to make them smaller isn't real effective either. (More on rudimentary lathes later.)

F) Lots of menus and buttons to push before my camera goes "Ansel Adams"...Still a mystery how that came to be...............................

#### dixontj93060

##### Well-Known Member
I'm loving this learning experience--saves me from going through it the first time I build with concrete forms.

BTW, SpartaChris and those beer-guzzling guys out in CA have tons of experience with sizing and building with forms, e.g., 12" Talon on a P--you might take a peek at their builds or give 'em a call.

#### Pantherjon

##### Well-Known Member
I'm loving this learning experience--saves me from going through it the first time I build with concrete forms.

BTW, SpartaChris and those beer-guzzling guys out in CA have tons of experience with sizing and building with forms, e.g., 12" Talon on a P--you might take a peek at their builds or give 'em a call.
Yeah, but they actually USE the concrete tubes as body tubes, not as mandrels to make body tubes..Which I believe Scott is doing...BTW, I am enjoying this 'learning experience' as well!

#### dixontj93060

##### Well-Known Member
I think Scott decided to deviate from the mandrel approach.

Yeah, but they actually USE the concrete tubes as body tubes, not as mandrels to make body tubes..Which I believe Scott is doing...BTW, I am enjoying this 'learning experience' as well!

#### sodmeister

##### Well-Known Member
Interesting trials & tribulations....keep at `er man ! Never thought of using my Rotozip the same way you have....good idea !

P

#### Scott Evil

##### Well-Known Member
Thanx for appreciating the "intent" of this thread guys.

It is in fact just a diary of how I'm going about scratch building an upscale version of my L1 Endeavour mod and how I got there.

Crapien III still being at the "liquid state/execution" of planning, some fundamental changes in technique and design WILL OCCUR from time to time and I apologize in advance for any resulting confusion as this diary progresses.

So...........

#### Scott Evil

##### Well-Known Member
......I still need to get my centering ring and bulkhead skills in order regardless of schitsofrenic body tube build plans.

I picked up a cheapie fly cutter yesterday but it's only long enough for 5.5" circles.

Some longer mild steel hex stock and substandard welding techniques applied.

...Hence..."The Franken-Fly Cutter of Doom"...

No blood no glory

#### Scott Evil

##### Well-Known Member
A quick blast from the past, some "ego" shots of of how Crapien II got put together...

#### cwbullet

##### Obsessed with Rocketry
Staff member
Global Mod
What are you using as ejection charge holders?

#### dixontj93060

##### Well-Known Member
Very nice wiring.

#### Scott Evil

##### Well-Known Member
What are you using as ejection charge holders?
It's actually just some 1/2" or so aluminum tubing with a bead blasted finish.

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