Demon seed.... Estes 13mm motors

[4regt4]

I've had numerous catos with 13mm motors recently, in particular the A10s. 3 out of 4 in one afternoon. Got warranty replacements, but, get this, with the same date code as the failed motors. So I just received this:

Dear Valued Customer, Estes has identified a potential manufacturing issue for the Mini (13mm) engines with a Lot Code that begins with ‘H21’. The use of these engines could result in malfunction during launch. The potential affected products are listed below.​

Product Name A10-0T A3-4T A3-4T ½A3-4T ¼A3-3T A10-3T Lot Code H21 1021 H21 0921 H21 0821 H21 1021 H21 1021 H21 1021

​

Our records indicate that you have purchased one or more of these products within last two years. We recommend that you contact Estes Customer Service via email for replacement of these engines​

Hans.

 

[BEC]

I just got the same note. Am going to check what I have. I haven’t had any CATOs with 13mm motors for awhile.

 

[4regt4]

I just got the same note. Am going to check what I have. I haven’t had any CATOs with 13mm motors for awhile.

I went into FPM (Full Panic Mode) when Estes announced their new pricing policy on Mar 31st. So I bought a bunch of motors from AC Supply that day, which included about 8 packs of 13mm. I still haven't opened the box, now I have to open it and check date codes.

Hans.

 

[mh9162013]

I got that same email and will be in touch with Estes soon. For what it's worth, I already used 2 of those recalled engines (A10-3T) for ground tests and they worked just fine.

 

[4regt4]

I got that same email and will be in touch with Estes soon. For what it's worth, I already used 2 of those recalled engines (A10-3T) for ground tests and they worked just fine.

The recent launch where 3/4 blew, were A10-0T in a 2 stage booster. They basically blew just off the launch rod, and the 2nd lit OK. So no real harm, just a crappy low altitude flight. Also had an A3-4T blow, but it's long in the garbage and I don't know the date code... Might have the remnants of the pack somewhere.

Hans.

 

[BEC]

I went into FPM (Full Panic Mode) when Estes announced their new pricing policy on Mar 31st. So I bought a bunch of motors from AC Supply that day, which included about 8 packs of 13mm. I still haven't opened the box, now I have to open it and check date codes.

Hans.

I'm not sure how Estes would know about motors you bought from AC Supply (in order to send that email). I have most of four packs of A10-0Ts on that list and five A3-4Ts. I also have notes of having flown a couple the A3-4Ts with no issue. I don't always note the date codes of motors used in my flight log. I haven't had a 13mm CATO in at least a year.

 

[mh9162013]

I'm not sure how Estes would know about motors you bought from AC Supply (in order to send that email).

I think the recalled motors I purchased came from Amazon. So I'm guessing Estes has a way of knowing who bought what.

EDIT: I know I purchased 1 pack of recalled engines from Amazon. But I also think I purchased 1 pack of recalled engines from Estes. However, I think I've used all of those engines, and no CATO...

EDIT 2: So I confirmed that the recalled engines I have came from Amazon. I may have 2 packs of recalled engines from Amazon, but I only have 2 engines from 1 pack left. I did order some engines from Estes that are of the type or class that are subject to recall, but don't have the engine code subject to the recall (I also haven't used any of them, either).

 

[Fishhead]

I got that same email and will be in touch with Estes soon. For what it's worth, I already used 2 of those recalled engines (A10-3T) for ground tests and they worked just fine.

How high did the ground go? What size chute is preferred?

 

[4regt4]

I'm not sure how Estes would know about motors you bought from AC Supply (in order to send that email). I have most of four packs of A10-0Ts on that list and five A3-4Ts. I also have notes of having flown a couple the A3-4Ts with no issue. I don't always note the date codes of motors used in my flight log. I haven't had a 13mm CATO in at least a year.

Yeah, I'm not sure about getting replacements for the AC Supply motors, assuming any are of the subject date codes. But Estes sent me a pack of A10-0T as warranty replacements, and they are of the bad date. The same date code as the ones that cato'd. So apparently they must keep track of the dates going out the door.

Hans.

 

[KennB]

The recent launch where 3/4 blew, were A10-0T in a 2 stage booster. They basically blew just off the launch rod, and the 2nd lit OK. So no real harm, just a crappy low altitude flight. Also had an A3-4T blow, but it's long in the garbage and I don't know the date code... Might have the remnants of the pack somewhere.

Hans.

This thread shows why it is so important to submit a MESS report with any type of motor failure (CATO. inaccurate delay, split case, etc.).

Please have a look at the report page and use it whenever the need arises. You can even include a photo that best shows the failure.

 

[Kallahan11]

Estes has a service bulletin about this lot.

 

[James Duffy]

Yeah, I'm not sure about getting replacements for the AC Supply motors, assuming any are of the subject date codes.

If you have motors that bear the date codes shown above, contact the Estes customer service department. They will take care of you regardless of where the motors were purchased.

 

[4regt4]

If you have motors that bear the date codes shown above, contact the Estes customer service department. They will take care of you regardless of where the motors were purchased.

True, but I wonder about the burden of proof. I could take a photo of one motor with the bad date code and claim to have 1000 of them. Or I could supply bunches of purchase invoices, but in reality many may not have been of the bad batch, and even if part of the bad batch, I could have successfully launched many of them. I wouldn't do any of this, but it's possible for an unscrupulous individual to do this.

They could ask people to return them, but now we have shipping issues.

Hans.

 

[mh9162013]

True, but I wonder about the burden of proof. I could take a photo of one motor with the bad date code and claim to have 1000 of them. Or I could supply bunches of purchase invoices, but in reality many may not have been of the bad batch, and even if part of the bad batch, I could have successfully launched many of them. I wouldn't do any of this, but it's possible for an unscrupulous individual to do this.

They could ask people to return them, but now we have shipping issues.

Hans.

After contacting Estes customer service, they asked me to provide:

"A picture of the engines that have the H21 production code;
A list of those engines, including engine type and quantity; and
Your complete US shipping address."

So I think there's a mix between verification and assuming the consumer is being honest. Also, don't forget, Estes knows roughly how many of these engines are out there and where they were sold. So maybe some fudging can take place with unscrupulous consumers, but there's a limit to their dishonesty.

 

[4regt4]

Ah, good.

Looks like I've got a bit of picture taking to do. It will be most convenient if one of the motors in a closed pack happens to be rotated to show the date.

Hans.

 

[Rob Campbell]

I received the same notice from Chris Short.

 

[4regt4]

I received the same notice from Chris Short.

Did Chris indicate if he is handling the replacements for his customers? Or are they to contact Estes?

Hans.

 

[Rob Campbell]

Did Chris indicate if he is handling the replacements for his customers? Or are they to contact Estes?

Hans.

Chris forwarded the Estes email, so customers will need to contact Estes customer service.

 

[BABAR]

I'm not sure how Estes would know about motors you bought from AC Supply (in order to send that email). I have most of four packs of A10-0Ts on that list and five A3-4Ts. I also have notes of having flown a couple the A3-4Ts with no issue. I don't always note the date codes of motors used in my flight log. I haven't had a 13mm CATO in at least a year.

I think @Ronz Rocketz has a video that ought to earn at least three A10-0s!

 

[4regt4]

I think @Ronz Rocketz has a video that ought to earn at least three A10-0s!

Actually, I think it was a cluster of 4.... All blew. Looked like a low altitude firework display.

Perhaps he can clarify.

Hans.

 

[lakeroadster]

Estes is such an awesome company... straight up. They make things right.

 

[BEC]

I just laid out the 14 A10-0Ts (including one unopened pack) and 5 A3-4Ts I have and sent that picture. I expect I’ll get back four packs of A10-0Ts and two packs of A3-4Ts.

I have flown some of the A3-4Ts without incident. As I mentioned above I haven’t had a 13mm CATO in awhile, but there is another date code about two years older, of A10-0Ts that also gave me problems - either CATO or really lousy performance. I may have gotten some of the now issue A10-0Ts from Estes as replacements for those others. They sent me quite a few.

I‘m really glad that no A3-6Ts are in this “recall”. I have recently bought a bunch of those, from Estes directly and from other vendors.

If I’m not mistaken (I could be) at least some of the A3-4Ts I have that are subject to this came from Hobby Lobby.

 

[BABAR]

Estes is such an awesome company... straight up. They make things right.

They still have a few heavily underpowered rockets. Re-releasing the C5-3 was big. A C5-0 would also be a hit and really would expand their two stage options.

 

[lakeroadster]

They still have a few heavily underpowered rockets. Re-releasing the C5-3 was big. A C5-0 would also be a hit and really would expand their two stage options.

Throw some AeroTech motors in them... it's big world out there... embrace it.

 

[4regt4]

I just laid out the 14 A10-0Ts (including one unopened pack) and 5 A3-4Ts I have and sent that picture. I expect I’ll get back four packs of A10-0Ts and two packs of A3-4Ts.

I have flown some of the A3-4Ts without incident. As I mentioned above I haven’t had a 13mm CATO in awhile, but there is another date code about two years older, of A10-0Ts that also gave me problems - either CATO or really lousy performance. I may have gotten some of the now issue A10-0Ts from Estes as replacements for those others. They sent me quite a few.

I‘m really glad that no A3-6Ts are in this “recall”. I have recently bought a bunch of those, from Estes directly and from other vendors.

If I’m not mistaken (I could be) at least some of the A3-4Ts I have that are subject to this came from Hobby Lobby.

I have 9 A10-0, but I'm OK if they only send 2 packs. Similar... 5 A3s. Just a pack is fine.

Now having said that, I have the previously mentioned AC Supply order that I haven't opened. So that could change things.

Hans.

 

[kuririn]

I think @Ronz Rocketz has a video that ought to earn at least three A10-0s!

Actually, I think it was a cluster of 4.... All blew. Looked like a low altitude firework display.

Perhaps he can clarify.

Hans.

It was a two stage Twin Factor with a third motor chad staged.
Babar pressed the launch button.
That's one way of getting rid of questionable motors.

 

[Ronz Rocketz]

I think @Ronz Rocketz has a video that ought to earn at least three A10-0s!

In my defense, Estes told me to dispose of the motors so I disposed of the motors.

 

[DigBaddy]

If I’m not mistaken (I could be) at least some of the A3-4Ts I have that are subject to this came from Hobby Lobby.

Yup. I have one unopened pack of A3-4Ts that are part of this notice and are from HL.

 

[mh9162013]

I just heard back from Estes. They are mailing me a new pack of A10-3T engines for free and they told me to destroy the two I had left.

 

[BEC]

Same. I'm not sure I'll use the means of destruction they suggest, though.