Deleted

Status
Not open for further replies.

Arsenal78

Well-Known Member
Joined
May 7, 2018
Messages
746
Reaction score
219
I'm starting a thread for Launch Pad rocket plans to be uploaded and shared. These rockets are too unique and beautiful to not be shared with current or future builders who enjoy scratch building and challenges and there should be no reason to not have a "Plan Repository" for these kits . I have the Sidewinder plans that I'm uploading to start. These were shared with me and I'm doing my part to share them with everyone else.
 

dhbarr

Amateur Professional
TRF Supporter
Joined
Jan 30, 2016
Messages
8,477
Reaction score
2,869
I'm starting a thread for Launch Pad rocket plans to be uploaded and shared. These rockets are too unique and beautiful to not be shared with current or future builders who enjoy scratch building and challenges and there should be no reason to not have a "Plan Repository" for these kits . I have the Sidewinder plans that I'm uploading to start. These were shared with me and I'm doing my part to share them with everyone else.
Suggestion: standardize on tlp_kitname.pdf so they're easily visible on the forum interface.
 

heada

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jan 18, 2009
Messages
5,446
Reaction score
2,828
Location
Indianapolis, Indiana
Who is the current owner of TLP? I'd think the copyrights would still be with the current owner and they may or may not wish for copies of their IP to be made freely available to all.
 

Arsenal78

Well-Known Member
Joined
May 7, 2018
Messages
746
Reaction score
219
Launch Pad is long gone, no one owns it or the stuff.
 

heada

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jan 18, 2009
Messages
5,446
Reaction score
2,828
Location
Indianapolis, Indiana
Launch Pad is long gone, no one owns it or the stuff.
Unless the last owner released the plans to the public domain, then they still own the copyrights to those plans. They may choose not to enforce those copyrights, but they still exist unless they placed the plans in the public domain. Just becuase they're no longer being sold doesn't mean they have no value and you're allowed to make copies freely available to everyone. It is no different than an out of print book. You can't legally reproduce that book and give copies away just because the author and publisher aren't printing new copies for sale.
 

Scott_650

Well-Known Member
Joined
Sep 16, 2015
Messages
1,692
Reaction score
1,189
Location
Louisville OH
Unless the last owner released the plans to the public domain, then they still own the copyrights to those plans. They may choose not to enforce those copyrights, but they still exist unless they placed the plans in the public domain. Just becuase they're no longer being sold doesn't mean they have no value and you're allowed to make copies freely available to everyone. It is no different than an out of print book. You can't legally reproduce that book and give copies away just because the author and publisher aren't printing new copies for sale.
Thank you! I was hoping an “old hand” (I still consider myself a newbee) would make a comment about intellectual rights - copyright specifically - and why it may not be legal or ethical to reproduce and distribute someone else’s property without permission. The TLP website is still active with a “For Sale” sign on the main page - somebody is paying to have the site kept alive and thinks there’s value in the designs so I’m not sure it’s kosher to stretch the definition of “fair use” and distribute copies of TLP’s stuff. Here’s a way to think about this - if the person who created those designs had a stack of paper plans in plain sight in their garage with the door open under a big sign saying For Sale would it be ok to help yourself to a few, then make copies and hand them out to friends? Few people would agree. However, if (like what Estes, LOC and other vendors do with instructions posted on their websites) that stack of plans was on the sidewalk with a Take One sign beside them, then any reasonable person would conclude they’re ok helping themselves.
 

Scott_650

Well-Known Member
Joined
Sep 16, 2015
Messages
1,692
Reaction score
1,189
Location
Louisville OH
On one of the threads started by a forum member considering starting his own hobby rocketry business he mentioned (without naming names) a retired vendor he contacted about purchasing their designs - the member recounted that the asking price was way above what he considered reasonable. Maybe that’s what’s up with TLP - the owner has a price and he’s not budging. Whoever knows hasn’t made whatever they know public so we may never know the whole story…

And don’t misconstrue my earlier comment as anti-TLP - I wish I’d bought more kits/plans than I did before the plug was pulled!
 

heada

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jan 18, 2009
Messages
5,446
Reaction score
2,828
Location
Indianapolis, Indiana
Agreed. I think the selling price for TLP is probably too high which is why it hasn't sold yet but it is a sign of the value the current owner has placed on the rights for those kits and plans. With placing such a high value, I very seriously doubt they'd be happy knowing that there is an effort to make all that freely available to all.
 

heada

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jan 18, 2009
Messages
5,446
Reaction score
2,828
Location
Indianapolis, Indiana
Pull the PDF but leave the rest. It is a good discussion and serves a purpose. I tried to not attack anyone personally and keep it all civil. I have no vested intrest in TLP other than having 1 kit in the build stage for 5-ish years and half dozen plan packs.
 

Scott_650

Well-Known Member
Joined
Sep 16, 2015
Messages
1,692
Reaction score
1,189
Location
Louisville OH
Agreed. I think the selling price for TLP is probably too high which is why it hasn't sold yet but it is a sign of the value the current owner has placed on the rights for those kits and plans. With placing such a high value, I very seriously doubt they'd be happy knowing that there is an effort to make all that freely available to all.
It’s a great topic for discussion - we’re a very small subset of a rather small niche hobby, if scans of OOP TLP instructions are posted what is the impact on the property owner? Does the availability to a very small audience of a rather esoteric design degrade the value of TLP overall or would it maintain enough interest to keep selling the designs viable? The legal answer is much easier to determine than the ethical answer - Harley Davidson is a good historical example: during AMF’s ownership of HD the production quality dropped, the engineering department was starved of funds, the Japanese move into larger displacement motorcycles eroding market share - if it hadn’t been for independent shops, manufacturers of “pattern” parts (as early as the 60s you could build an HD motor completely with aftermarket parts) and the enthusiasm of owners it’s highly unlikely the team that bought HD from AMF would’ve secured a dime from lenders to bankroll the purchase.
 

heada

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jan 18, 2009
Messages
5,446
Reaction score
2,828
Location
Indianapolis, Indiana
Copies of the instructions from a kit are less impactful than copies of the plan packs I think. A kit has value outside of the instructions as the parts themselves. Yes, there is value in the instructions but less so. A plan pack value is 100% in the pack and so making copies of those is much more damaging to the rights owner. Copies of instructions with copies of the parts list and scale copies/drawings of the fins are almost impactful as a copy of a plan pack.
 

Scott_650

Well-Known Member
Joined
Sep 16, 2015
Messages
1,692
Reaction score
1,189
Location
Louisville OH
Copies of the instructions from a kit are less impactful than copies of the plan packs I think. A kit has value outside of the instructions as the parts themselves. Yes, there is value in the instructions but less so. A plan pack value is 100% in the pack and so making copies of those is much more damaging to the rights owner. Copies of instructions with copies of the parts list and scale copies/drawings of the fins are almost impactful as a copy of a plan pack.
Absolutely. The TLP plan packs (along with Shrox and Sandman’s Goonie plans) give you everything needed to build the rocket - giving someone a copy would certainly negate a sale of the plans. Kit instructions not so much.

Interesting that Estes makes all the info needed to clone most of their builder kits available - yes it takes some digging through the catalogs to identify the exact parts but nearly all the data is there.
 

samb

Lifetime Member
Joined
Jan 22, 2009
Messages
4,429
Reaction score
876
Location
Plano, TX
....

Interesting that Estes makes all the info needed to clone most of their builder kits available - yes it takes some digging through the catalogs to identify the exact parts but nearly all the data is there.
I wonder... if they could... pull an "Arsenal78" and try to make all that stuff go away. :)
 

heada

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jan 18, 2009
Messages
5,446
Reaction score
2,828
Location
Indianapolis, Indiana
Estes kits are a way to sell motors. I image the kits are break-even or nearly so and the vast majority of value is in the sale of motors. Not so with companies that are purely kit/plans based.

Semroc made retro-repro of OOP Estes kits (at the time, some have been made available again by Estes). They used the parts list and sold their own parts but made huge efforts to respect Estes rights by making their own instructions when they could have simply included the Estes instructions.
 

Scott_650

Well-Known Member
Joined
Sep 16, 2015
Messages
1,692
Reaction score
1,189
Location
Louisville OH
Estes kits are a way to sell motors. I image the kits are break-even or nearly so and the vast majority of value is in the sale of motors. Not so with companies that are purely kit/plans based.

Semroc made retro-repro of OOP Estes kits (at the time, some have been made available again by Estes). They used the parts list and sold their own parts but made huge efforts to respect Estes rights by making their own instructions when they could have simply included the Estes instructions.
Unlike an online vendor who uses copies with very minor redactions of actual Estes and Centuri instructions - I have no idea if he has permission, it‘s always looked a bit askew to me.
 

heada

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jan 18, 2009
Messages
5,446
Reaction score
2,828
Location
Indianapolis, Indiana
I try to spend my rocketry dollars with vendors that respect the rights of others and treat customers well. There are a few vendors that I will refuse to purchase from based on history.

TLP has, to my knowledge, never infringed on any other vendor rights and when they were producing kits, they tried to keep their suppliers in stock. I would hate to devalue TLP now by infringing on their rights by making their plans available. I view Edmunds the same way. I have 2 of their kits and I could provide scans of the plans and parts but I think it isn't the right thing to do, even though they're abandoned similarly to TLP.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top