DART RETURNS!

[fyrwrxz]

The Diego Area Rocketry Team returns to Fiesta Island today with a great turnout of sport flyers, TARC teams, spectators and newbies. All ages are having a blast ( pun intended) returning to the skies after the pandemic lockdown (yes, Virginia, Covid is still out there, be safe!) and the school limitations. A bright note is Discount Rocketry is back! Supporting low and mid- power needs ( we are limited to a 1k ceiling due to the adjacent airport) they have brought a fully stocked trailer 'o' goodies. Thanks to Jim and his wonderul wife, Ruby, they were busy after dropping the ramp and it showed no signs of letting up. Jim helps new fliers with everything from motor selection to field repairs. Ruby fields a million questions a minute and walks future fliers thru the extravaganza of kits and parts everybody wants or needs. She also bills out to the buyers, as no actual cash may exchange hands due to some arcane rule by the Parks and Recreation folks. Bah, humbug! At least you can get your rocket jam on! Just a few random pics from this morning.:

 

[DabCat]

Looks like a great time! Maybe I should check it out. My wallet would appreciate bringing out just the low power fleet for once.

 

[fyrwrxz]

Haha! Lord knows I tried! Couldn't find a bird/motor combo for under 1k to save my soul. Even tried to mickey up something with a 13mm and about 65 grams all up. 60'. Not safe enuff. Gave up and just went to meet some friends.

 

[ThirstyBarbarian]

One of these days, one of my visits to see my family in San Diego is going to match up with a DART launch, and I will be there. Fiesta Island is where I learned to fly rockets in the early ‘70s.

 

[fyrwrxz]

One of these days, one of my visits to see my family in San Diego is going to match up with a DART launch, and I will be there. Fiesta Island is where I learned to fly rockets in the early ‘70s.

Oh, buddy! Come on down! Lemme know when you are coming! We also have a bunch of TARC teams that could use some experience on their side.

 

[Exactimator]

I saw you at the launch Dave, but didn't get a chance to say hi. It was crazy busy yesterday! I barely had time to talk to Jim And Ruby.

A highlight of the launch (with a hopefully brief backstory):
Fiesta Island is close enough to Lindbergh Field we coordinate with the FAA. We send them notification emails a couple days prior to our launch, file a NOTAM, and call the tower when we start launching and again when we finish.

For years we never got much response.

Then, over the last couple years they started responding to our emails thanking us for the notice. Sometimes they wished us a good launching day.

Then we started getting a couple quick questions during the call-ins. What were we doing? Could anyone come?

We sent them an email with an open invitation to come to any of our launches.

One finally showed up yesterday. He brought his wife, young daughter and baby son. In true DART fashion, someone saw they didn't have a rocket and handed them a loaner and a couple engines. The daughter got really excited. By the end of the launch they were in the trailer picking her out a new Estes Viking and some motors.

We hope to see them again soon.

 

[fyrwrxz]

Oh, buddy! I wish I'd known! I brought two newbies with me, one looking for an outlet for a Scout troop and one who was supposed to bring his granddaughter, but she was sick, so he came alone. It was a bit frantic, with TARC and all the the pent up pressure to fly finally released. There was an event on Saturday for the Girl Scouts and yeah, I'm actually looking into getting back to a 1k ceiling. I literally couldn't find anything in the inventory that wouldn't bust the waiver. Lemme know when you go next time and let's catch up. Holtville Havioc? I promised Paul I'd show. The next weekend after that is ROCstock and I promised Gary I'd be out there to fly. LDRS was such a cluster for me, but got my 4 y.o. granddaughter out the with her first rocket! The Viking Princess actually came out because of the little tweeker! I had one of the very last flites off the rails on Sunday, and she got hers off the lpr pad with great success. Jim got some great pics. I missed everybody! Missed Gary twice bc of the heat and wind, and the whole SdTRA crew, but hooked up with Cris at the end. Saw Kenrico, but couldn't hang out. Bryce was there, so I got an og hug from him. It was just brutal, but you know it's what we do. Sorry I dint see ya, I'd a tackled a friendly face! Thx for posting about the FAA guy and family, We need that bonding! Straight smoke and good chutes! Be well. Best, -dave-

 

[smstachwick]

Looks like a great time! Maybe I should check it out. My wallet would appreciate bringing out just the low power fleet for once.

DART is my home club and venue of choice for flying. Be advised that coming from your area (I think you said Torrance when we met at LDRS?) for a 4-hour morning launch window is not exactly economical. But if that’s of little concern and you just want to meet cool people and get in the air with no fuss, it’s perfect.

 

[DabCat]

DART is my home club and venue of choice for flying. Be advised that coming from your area (I think you said Torrance when we met at LDRS?) for a 4-hour morning launch window is not exactly economical. But if that’s of little concern and you just want to meet cool people and get in the air with no fuss, it’s perfect.

True, 4 hours is rough for a morning window. It would have to be part of a different trip, which I could probably make happen. It would be to meet new people and experience new launch sites. Maybe help out a few beginners and maybe liquidate some excess items in the process. Is it a 1k waiver and class 1 only?

 

[smstachwick]

True, 4 hours is rough for a morning window. It would have to be part of a different trip, which I could probably make happen. Is it a 1k waiver and class 1 only?

I know it’s some kind of agreement with the FAA but I don’t know if it’s an actual waiver. @Exactimator probably knows more.

It is 1000 ft but I’ve observed that club membership is pretty forgiving with smaller rockets. Alpha IIIs on C6 motors sim higher than that but it appears to be a common configuration there. I think the concern is reserved for cases where it’s undeniably obvious the ceiling has been (or will be) exceeded, or for experienced fliers who should know how to predict altitude for themselves.

Going higher than that isn’t a good idea anyway, the winds tend to blow rockets towards the neighboring Youth Aquatic Center or into the bay.

Also I believe it’s slightly more restrictive than Class 1. I haven’t gotten confirmation on this but I don’t believe the field is large enough to support complex configurations larger than a single G motor (which are allowed under LPR rules, you can fly two Gs or equivalent without certification, it just requires a larger field and compliance with the rest of the LPR limitations). Slightly pedantic, I know. I think it would be a bit of an engineering challenge to keep a double-G Class 1 rocket under the ceiling anyway.

 

[fyrwrxz]

True, 4 hours is rough for a morning window. It would have to be part of a different trip, which I could probably make happen. It would be to meet new people and experience new launch sites. Maybe help out a few beginners and maybe liquidate some excess items in the process. Is it a 1k waiver and class 1 only?

Chase, yup! We have the airport close by and in contact during launches. The Coasties and assorted branches of enforcement are regulars in our flight path. Still, better than nothing and it's been done for years that way. We have the only site where you can have your rocket:
run over on the freeway
be lost at sea
eaten by a dog
trampled by six year olds
or hit by a bicyclist.
On the other hand, the well churned sand is gentle on core samples and lawn darts.

 

[cerving]

It's not an FAA thing, I think it's agreement with the park. You don't want to go much higher anyway... unless you want a real "splashdown".

 

[DabCat]

I know it’s some kind of agreement with the FAA but I don’t know if it’s an actual waiver. @Exactimator probably knows more.

It is 1000 ft but I’ve observed that club membership is pretty forgiving with smaller rockets. Alpha IIIs on C6 motors sim higher than that but it appears to be a common configuration there. I think the concern is reserved for cases where it’s undeniably obvious the ceiling has been (or will be) exceeded, or for experienced fliers who should know how to predict altitude for themselves.

Going higher than that isn’t a good idea anyway, the winds tend to blow rockets towards the neighboring Youth Aquatic Center or into the bay.

Also I believe it’s slightly more restrictive than Class 1. I haven’t gotten confirmation on this but I don’t believe the field is large enough to support complex configurations larger than a single G motor (which are allowed under LPR rules, you can fly two Gs or equivalent without certification, it just requires a larger field and compliance with the rest of the LPR limitations). Slightly pedantic, I know. I think it would be a bit of an engineering challenge to keep a double-G Class 1 rocket under the ceiling anyway.

I think single G sounds about right. Santa Fe Dam had a site and a G80 was the largest they would allow. I think they had a simular altitude waiver as well. Are electronics allowed for deployment? I could keep a few things under 1k with a G76.

 

[smstachwick]

I think single G sounds about right. Santa Fe Dam had a site and a G80 was the largest they would allow. I think they had a simular altitude waiver as well. Are electronics allowed for deployment? I could keep a few things under 1k with a G76.

I’ve not heard of any rules for electronics but I’m not going to say that there are none. That’s probably a better one for the guys who have been there much longer than I.

 

[fyrwrxz]

All I can say is we got away with murder back in the day. It wasn't unusual to have 'test flights' for Coyote Wells or later, Plaster City. I have too many stories about our shenanigans, but it was fun! We seem to be running out of o.g.'s!

 

[Exactimator]

The 1000 ft limit is not a waiver but a request/direction in the form of a letter from the FAA due to our proximity to Lindberg.

We note the 1,000 ft limit on the NAR DART website. We note it in the launch notices via the email list and Facebook. It gets mentioned at the flyers safety meeting. If we see a flight that looks like it's pushing 1000 ft we'll tell them to use less motor next time. More often than not, the problem of a flyer not heeding the 1,000 ft limit takes care of itself when their rocket lands in the bay. Sometimes learning the hard way is the only way people learn.

Class 1 rockets only, up to G motors. You need a pretty draggy rocket to stay within class 1 and not go over 1000 ft with a G.

There are no rules against electronics.

 

[smstachwick]

The 1000 ft limit is not a waiver but a request/direction in the form of a letter from the FAA due to our proximity to Lindberg.

We note the 1,000 ft limit on the NAR DART website. We note it in the launch notices via the email list and Facebook. It gets mentioned at the flyers safety meeting. If we see a flight that looks like it's pushing 1000 ft we'll tell them to use less motor next time. More often than not, the problem of a flyer not heeding the 1,000 ft limit takes care of itself when their rocket lands in the bay. Sometimes learning the hard way is the only way people learn.

That was my understanding as well. Thanks for the info.

To clarify, I didn’t mean to imply that DART is reckless, unsafe, or unclear, only that our approach contrasts slightly with HPR settings where all of this stuff is expected to be figured out beforehand, high-altitude projects undergo a higher degree of scrutiny, and exceeding the waiver is uncommon. DART’s measures are appropriate for a LPR club frequented by kids and newcomers who do really well through experimentation and a gentle guiding touch, which is exactly what we are. But it is different enough from something like heading out to Holtville or Lucerne that I thought it worth commenting on and explaining. I’m sorry if that wasn’t clear.

 

[srfrich]

Cool! I recently moved to the area. Gotta get back in touch with DART.

 

[ThirstyBarbarian]

I’ve flown with several clubs that have similar limits to those at DART launches at Fiesta Island. When LUNAR flew monthly at Moffett Field, the limits were exactly the same — Class 1 rockets only (under 3.3 pounds), G motor limit, under 80N average thrust, cieling of 1,000 feet. What I liked was to fly something like my Aerotech G-Force on G motors. That’s a 4” diameter rocket around 5’ long, under 3 pounds fully loaded, and it flies great on single-use motors like G77-4, G78-4, G79-4, or G80-4. It keeps well under 1,000 feet, usually between 500’ and 700’. It’s kind of fun flying the biggest rockets allowed under the LPR rules — big fish, little pond. Often the kids are very impressed! There are plenty of 4” rockets that work great under those rules — G-Force, Mega Der Red Max, LOC IV, etc.

Another good economical option is 2.5” or 3” rockets on single-use motors like F20-4, F23-4, F27-4, F42, F67. Those are the ones sold in 2-packs and are not maximum Fs. Easy to use and a decent price. They also ship without hazmat fees. I had some older Estes PSII kits like Leviathan, Argent, Partizon, etc. that were good on these motors and always kept below 1,000 feet.

And then when you go to an HPR launch that has a higher cieling, you can fly those same rockets on higher impulse motors — fly the 4” on H or even I, and fly the 3” ones on G or H.

I like flying big HPR rockets on big motors, but smaller fields are enjoyable for their own reasons. For one thing, you get to stand a LOT closer to the pads. Standing 30 or 40’ from a G motor taking off is as thrilling, if not more so, as standing 100’ or maybe 300’ from an H on a field set up for HPR. Under NAR rules, you can do a G motor drag race and stand really close to it, which is definitely worth doing!

Another nice thing about low ceilings is you can watch the chute deployment, which I enjoy. And the recovery walk is usually pretty reasonable.

 

[Neutronium95]

I really need to get back to flying at Fiesta Island. I probably haven't flown anything there in about 10 years, but it's where I was introduced to the hobby by my dad when I was a kid. I remember hiding in the car because the G motors were too loud and scary.

Now I just need to figure out something that will stay under 1000 feet on a G motor....

 

[smstachwick]

I really need to get back to flying at Fiesta Island. I probably haven't flown anything there in about 10 years, but it's where I was introduced to the hobby by my dad when I was a kid. I remember hiding in the car because the G motors were too loud and scary.

Now I just need to figure out something that will stay under 1000 feet on a G motor....

Lots of kits that are recommended through DART’s Level 0.9 program are suitable, I think I’ve mentioned this in at least one other thread. A Mad Cow 4” Little John or a Wildman 2.1” Darkstar Jr will both do the trick. I’ve talked to a few other fliers considering an Apogee Zephyr. I’d also look at running the numbers on a LOC IV. Basically anything that’s suitable for an easy-peasy H motor flight to around 1500 ft should be about right for G power at Fiesta Island.

Obviously weigh the rocket first, you don’t want to bust the 1500g mass limit.

 

[Neutronium95]

I have a bunch of ideas. I'm going to see if my upcoming 2.6" fiberglass rocket will stay under the 1500 gram limit. That's intended to just be a general high power flier for everything from H to L, and it might end up light enough to fly on a punchy G.

There's also a whole world of saucers, spools, and other oddrocs that stay low and slow. I've also seen some really impressive builds with depron foam that are very big rockets while also being incredibly light. An 8" diameter rocket would be pretty cool to see fly out there.

 

[Exactimator]

We love pyramids and saucers.

Just to manage expectations, our recent launches have been super busy. We have several TARC teams practicing on the TARC range and the regular range has had lines and waits. Lots of families and kids. We move the line as fast as we can while maintaining safety. I thought the crowds might keep some people away but it just seems to be snowballing.

So expect some waits and limited support from the club officers.

 

[smstachwick]

We love pyramids and saucers.

Just to manage expectations, our recent launches have been super busy. We have several TARC teams practicing on the TARC range and the regular range has had lines and waits. Lots of families and kids. We move the line as fast as we can while maintaining safety. I thought the crowds might keep some people away but it just seems to be snowballing.

So expect some waits and limited support from the club officers.

I can’t help but wonder if part of the reason for the club’s popularity is because it’s the only place in San Diego where model rocket flights are both legal and convenient. I’ve been kicking around the idea of writing to the Poway city council and seeking standing approval for a public just-set-up-and-launch arrangement at a city park contingent on low fire danger, but the convenience of flying with DART results in a lack of clear impetus and so I’ve put zero effort into execution.

Maybe that will change if launches continue to be crowded through the season. This one was pretty nuts.

 

[Exactimator]

There's a poll on here asking what keeps people returning to launches. Friendliness of the members was the number one response by far. Maybe I'll start being blatantly mean to people. Or we can bring in some whiney NAR contest flyers. They seem to drive people away.

 

[kramer714]

The Diego Area Rocketry Team returns to Fiesta Island today with a great turnout of sport flyers, TARC teams, spectators and newbies. All ages are having a blast ( pun intended) returning to the skies after the pandemic lockdown (yes, Virginia, Covid is still out there, be safe!) and the school limitations. A bright note is Discount Rocketry is back! Supporting low and mid- power needs ( we are limited to a 1k ceiling due to the adjacent airport) they have brought a fully stocked trailer 'o' goodies. Thanks to Jim and his wonderul wife, Ruby, they were busy after dropping the ramp and it showed no signs of letting up. Jim helps new fliers with everything from motor selection to field repairs. Ruby fields a million questions a minute and walks future fliers thru the extravaganza of kits and parts everybody wants or needs. She also bills out to the buyers, as no actual cash may exchange hands due to some arcane rule by the Parks and Recreation folks. Bah, humbug! At least you can get your rocket jam on! Just a few random pics from this morning.:

Just want to add to your comments about Jim and Ruby from Discount rocketry, Great folks, knowledgeable, very patient with newbies (and old timers), and a great supplier.

 

[Exactimator]

I saw you at the launch Dave, but didn't get a chance to say hi. It was crazy busy yesterday! I barely had time to talk to Jim And Ruby.

A highlight of the launch (with a hopefully brief backstory):
Fiesta Island is close enough to Lindbergh Field we coordinate with the FAA. We send them notification emails a couple days prior to our launch, file a NOTAM, and call the tower when we start launching and again when we finish.

For years we never got much response.

Then, over the last couple years they started responding to our emails thanking us for the notice. Sometimes they wished us a good launching day.

Then we started getting a couple quick questions during the call-ins. What were we doing? Could anyone come?

We sent them an email with an open invitation to come to any of our launches.

One finally showed up yesterday. He brought his wife, young daughter and baby son. In true DART fashion, someone saw they didn't have a rocket and handed them a loaner and a couple engines. The daughter got really excited. By the end of the launch they were in the trailer picking her out a new Estes Viking and some motors.

We hope to see them again soon.

We had another launch today and the FAA guy returned with his daughter. She seemed to have a great time and really had fun flipping switches on the controller. Ironically, she was quite bad at checking the sky. I had to tell her to stop and really check the sky especially since her dad is an FAA guy.

We didn't smack any planes, so we've got that going for us.

 

[rharshberger]

Just want to add to your comments about Jim and Ruby from Discount rocketry, Great folks, knowledgeable, very patient with newbies (and old timers), and a great supplier.

And I can add to the good comments about Discount Rocketry as well! They were sponsors of this years Sod Blaster IV, I mostly conversed with Ruby, but many thanks to them and their support!

 

[kjhambrick]

I think single G sounds about right. Santa Fe Dam had a site and a G80 was the largest they would allow. I think they had a simular altitude waiver as well. Are electronics allowed for deployment? I could keep a few things under 1k with a G76.

I used to fly an AltAcc in my 1.9 inch Vulcanette in Main-Only Mode at F.I. back in the late-1990s until 2000 when I moved to L.A. for a new job.

Oops: sorry to necro-post