Cub Scout Rocket Derby - Bad decisions by leaders

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Mushtang

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Last year the cub scouts asked for volunteers to help with the Rocket Derby and since I'd had some experience with this I volunteered to help. It was a disaster, mainly because they didn't listen to my suggestions. 1st, they selected a field that was WAY too small - the ball field at an elementary school. 2nd, they launched the rockets from one corner of the field and by tilting the rods sent them out over the field. Both of these decisions resulted in about half of the rockets being lost in the trees surrounding the field, or on top of the school.

This year I decided to stay out of it because they didn't take my advice anyway, and they did the exact same thing. The only difference was that this year they only used smaller rockets for everyone and weren't launching anything on C motors, so most of the rockets were recovered.

However, on a table in the corner of the field they had two launch pads set up, and someone would be setting up one rocket while the other one was being launched... 4 feet away. On top of that, some dad who obviously had never seen a true CATO was taking pictures of every launch from about 2 feet away.

Cub Scout Launch 01.JPG

My wife and I were sitting with my son well away from the launch rods and I told her that sooner or later one of these engines was going to blow up on the rod, and those guys would be lucky if they weren't hurt. They also had the crowd sitting much too close and a couple of rockets nearly darted into someone's head.

I struggled with going over there and begging them to changing some things for safety, but after being ignored the previous year I knew it wouldn't matter. I'm glad nobody ended up getting hurt, I would have really felt horrible.

The bright side to all this, is that my son won a trophy. When we opened the package to start building it I decided I'd let him to 100% of the work. I'd be happy to show him how to do what he wanted to do, but he'd have to actually do the work. I suggested painting it to look like a pencil (similar to the Sky Writer) but he decided he wanted to make a light saber.

He had a toy light saber and brought it in to look at during the build. He painted the rocket blue and the bottom 1/4 (approx) silver, and used the fins painted black to emulate the grips on the handle. We then glued a red lego piece to be the button. I suggested adding a lot of other details, but he thought it was good enough, so after adding a couple of coats of clear coat he was done.

The launch was on Saturday morning and they judged all the rockets before launching any. Then on the next Tuesday, last night, there was a Pack meeting where they handed out the awards. His rocket came in 2nd place for the entire Pack, not just his Den!!!

Cub Scout Launch 02.jpg
 
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I think I would have tried to give advice. As you said, someone could get hurt and then you would have felt bad and they would likely never do the event again. If they ignored you at least you tried.

As far as the guy taking photos from just a few feet away I'm fairly sure he wouldn't have listened to you. Once the first rocket goes up and nothing bad happens all the advice in the world is useless; he is going to take those photos. Stupid is as stupid does I guess.
 
I agree I strongly feel that safety rules are in place for a reason and to completely ignore them is just asking for trouble and then when someone does get hurt "rocketry" gets blamed for it. It always seems to work out that way. If people would just make the effort to abide by the rules less people would get hurt. It's suppose to be a fun activity and no one should get hurt. Dodging rockets is not my idea of fun.
 
"Dad loses eye during Boy Scout Rocket Derby" is NOT the headline we need to see anywhere.
 
Before those kids were allowed to step onto the field they should have had a lecture on the model rocket safety code and the adult in charge should have been ready to enforce said code.

As a scout I remember going to the gun range and we had to sit through a safety lecture before we were even allowed to touch an unloaded rifle, same with archery and sailing, safety first.

Any scout leader that would undertake any potentialy dangerous activty without going over the safety codes is in over his head and probably shouldn't be in position of responsibility.
 
I think I would have handed the person in charge one of the little folded instruction sheets that is in every pack of Estes motors...it clearly talks about safety and has printed NAR Code of Safety on it!


Jerome
 
I agree with JPV:

Before those kids were allowed to step onto the field they should have had a lecture on the model rocket safety code and the adult in charge should have been ready to enforce said code.

As a scout I remember going to the gun range and we had to sit through a safety lecture before we were even allowed to touch an unloaded rifle, same with archery and sailing, safety first.

Any scout leader that would undertake any potentialy dangerous activty without going over the safety codes is in over his head and probably shouldn't be in position of responsibility.

You need to give your kid's leaders one more chance to listen. If they do not, you definitely need to go over their heads to the local council/leadership. All you have to do to impress them is to mention the word "liability" and you should have their complete attention from then on.
 
I completely agree with y'all. As a Cub Scout leader, safety is of paramount important to me. Safety HAS to be the first consideration for any activity at any age but Cub Scouts require special vigilance. Please present your concerns to the pack leader and provide a copy of the NAR safety code at the same time. Make it clear that you do not intend to let this issue rest until proper safety measures are observed. If the pack leader is not receptive, contact your district leadership.

You might consider doing a demonstration launch and pointing out safety measures as you go. You could begin the demonstration by outlining rocketry safety training for the Scouts and briefing NAR rules. Be certain to include any additional measures that you feel are required for the age group and the event.

Many dens and districts have rocketry programs in place as an important part of their program. Rocketry provides Scouts an excellent learning opportunity. The skills and responsibility required for this activity are lessons that will last a lifetime. They are mutuly beneficial activities with one drawing participants to the other. A well thought out and presented argument will be a service to the boys for a lifetime.

Maybe I got up on a box for a bit but that is my 2 cents.
 
I have been in scouting for most of my life. I have been participating in Cub scout 'rocket days' for at least 10 years. Both as a cub parent, and as a vulunteer once my boys moved on to 'Boy Scouts'. This story really upsets me on several levels.

First of all, the immediate risk is obvious. A scout, or parent could get seriously injured. Emotional damage could occur to a young scout that witnesses a serious eye injury.

You also have to recognize, that our youth (mostely boys) are going to emulate behavior they see in adults, and typically even push these boundaries. So if an adult is willing to watch a launch from 2', I can only imagine what these kids might try in their back yards, when parents are away. ARGHH!!

The BSA offers insurance coverage for all scout activities, so there is a financial risk to all of the scouting organization when this happens. It might only take 1 incident before the BSA bans rocket launches from scouting activities all together. (Really could happen!). They already prohibit paint ball, lazer tag and pistol shooting. (excluding venturing). This could take a huge toll on new rocketry participation.

So, if i was in your shoes......

After last years incident, I would voice my concerns to your Cubmaster and pack committee chair (at the same time). Its much harder for them to ignore you in a formal setting. Preferably at your pack comittee meeting, so your comments should be on record in the minutes. If you pack is not this organized, you could have the dicussion in a small group. You might also include your Charter Organization rep, if you can find them. They should care!! because they will also get egg on their face if an incident occurs.

As a last resort, I would contact your District Scout Executive. I guarantee this person will care. This guy (or gal) WILL get fired if they are aware of a safety (youth protection) issue and fail to take action.

Sometimes getting things done in the world of scouting requires that you understand how the sytem works. ..And how to leverage sad system. When have these discussions, use the term "Youth Protection". This is a BSA term that is sure to get the attention of anyone that has been trained as a scout leader. Any leader that ignores a parent with a potential "Youth Protection" issue will be in hot water before the sun sets!!

And... there is NO way I would stand by and allow scouts to be put at risk by irresponsible adults. It might make you unpopular for a while, but hey! There are always other scout groups you can join. How would you feel if you witnessed a kid loose an eye, that you could have prevented.

regards....
 
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Another trick is to try to inform the media. The Cub's are launching again... Funny how sheeple react when a camera is around documenting things for the 6 O'clock news. If nothing else, it gives a great way of preserving the "action" for future error analysis.
 
Caveeagle- you have been around Scouting much longer than me(starting our second year) and may help me remember something. I believe that somewhere in the Youth Protection program it states something to the effect that when engaging in activities which have an outside "governing body", rules and guidelines established guidelines from that body should be followed. I may be making this up just because I see it as common sense though.

Mushtang- Please let us know how this all works out. I am interested in starting a rocketry program in our pack and any insight that you gain from this may be helpful.
 
Caveeagle- you have been around Scouting much longer than me(starting our second year) and may help me remember something. I believe that somewhere in the Youth Protection program it states something to the effect that when engaging in activities which have an outside "governing body", rules and guidelines established guidelines from that body should be followed. I may be making this up just because I see it as common sense though.

That verbage sounds familiar, but I don't think its part of the YP training. I think that comes from the 'Guide To Safe Scouting'. I stopped trying to quote chapter & Verse on the GTSS a long time ago. ;)

I have often thought of writing my own pamphlet: "The Guide To Practical Scouting". It would be much more useful. ..Don't want to highjack this thread :)


Mushtang- Please let us know how this all works out. I am interested in starting a rocketry program in our pack and any insight that you gain from this may be helpful.

Hope you can get this started. Its a great summer activity for a Pack or troop. Its also a great way to keep the Older scouts linked in with your pack. Its really cool to see scouts (Den Chiefs) working with cubs, helping them build/launch their rockets. Its also a great way to help cubs (and parents) visualize the pathway past cubscouts on into 'Boy Scouts'.
 
And... there is NO way I would stand by and allow scouts to be put at risk by irresponsible adults. It might make you unpopular for a while, but hey! There are always other scout groups you can join. How would you feel if you witnessed a kid loose an eye, that you could have prevented.

regards....

Yeah, if it's just a matter of 'doing things differently' that's one thing -- if rockets get lost in trees that's not really a huge tragedy -- but when basic safety regulations are being blatantly flouted and people are being put in danger, it's time to be "THAT GUY" and blow the whistle.

If something goes wrong and somebody really gets hurt the consequences could range from serious to catastrophic.

And yes, probably all you have to do is sound off to the high monkey-monks in the local organization that "I'm looking into the legal and insurance-liability ramifications of exposing kids to unneccesary risk by ignoring established safety standards" and most likely they will sit up and take notice REAL fast. :surprised:

I wouldn't mess with the media (and I've been in it), especially if safety codes aren't being followed. The vast vast majority of the time they'll be clueless about what's going on, and if they come out and find people doing goofy unsafe stuff, that's almost certainly what they'll focus upon.

End result most likely nothing will get fixed and if anything the Scouts (or whatever sponsoring organization is involved) will just throw up their hands and say, "the hell with it, rocketry is too much of a headache."
 
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It seems like all of the scout troops in our surrounding area ask our club for help. We do launches and build classes for 100s of scouts at a time, and we control the safety so things go down pretty good.


TA
 
End result most likely nothing will get fixed and if anything the Scouts (or whatever sponsoring organization is involved) will just throw up their hands and say, "the hell with it, rocketry is too much of a headache."

You are exactly right. Both scouting and rocketry will loose out to pressure of financial and social pressure. This is one reason scouting continues to be on the decline (numerically). We can't let kids do really fun activities that keep them interested. They would rather just play soccer, or stay home and play the latest version of GTA.

**A huge THANKS to the rocketry club hosting scout builds and launches!! I can tell you first hand, how nice it is to see a bunch of young scouts getting turned on by an exciting hobby like this. Its sad to see how many of these kids don't have a Dad, or Grandfather around to mentor them. Building a rocket may only take a couple hours out of your schedule, but it can have a lifelong impact on a young kid!
 
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Last year the cub scouts asked for volunteers to help with the Rocket Derby and since I'd had some experience with this I volunteered to help. It was a disaster, mainly because they didn't listen to my suggestions. 1st, they selected a field that was WAY too small - the ball field at an elementary school. 2nd, they launched the rockets from one corner of the field and by tilting the rods sent them out over the field. Both of these decisions resulted in about half of the rockets being lost in the trees surrounding the field, or on top of the school.

This year I decided to stay out of it because they didn't take my advice anyway, and they did the exact same thing. The only difference was that this year they only used smaller rockets for everyone and weren't launching anything on C motors, so most of the rockets were recovered.

However, on a table in the corner of the field they had two launch pads set up, and someone would be setting up one rocket while the other one was being launched... 4 feet away. On top of that, some dad who obviously had never seen a true CATO was taking pictures of every launch from about 2 feet away.

View attachment 149615

My wife and I were sitting with my son well away from the launch rods and I told her that sooner or later one of these engines was going to blow up on the rod, and those guys would be lucky if they weren't hurt. They also had the crowd sitting much too close and a couple of rockets nearly darted into someone's head.

I struggled with going over there and begging them to changing some things for safety, but after being ignored the previous year I knew it wouldn't matter. I'm glad nobody ended up getting hurt, I would have really felt horrible.

The bright side to all this, is that my son won a trophy. When we opened the package to start building it I decided I'd let him to 100% of the work. I'd be happy to show him how to do what he wanted to do, but he'd have to actually do the work. I suggested painting it to look like a pencil (similar to the Sky Writer) but he decided he wanted to make a light saber.

He had a toy light saber and brought it in to look at during the build. He painted the rocket blue and the bottom 1/4 (approx) silver, and used the fins painted black to emulate the grips on the handle. We then glued a red lego piece to be the button. I suggested adding a lot of other details, but he thought it was good enough, so after adding a couple of coats of clear coat he was done.

The launch was on Saturday morning and they judged all the rockets before launching any. Then on the next Tuesday, last night, there was a Pack meeting where they handed out the awards. His rocket came in 2nd place for the entire Pack, not just his Den!!!

View attachment 149617

1. Great job getting your son into scouting. Glad he is having fun.

2. Thank you for at least attempting to help educate them on rocket safety. I understand your frustration.

3. WOW that is one cool looking rocket!! Tell you son way to go on the 2nd place award!!!
 
I agree I strongly feel that safety rules are in place for a reason and to completely ignore them is just asking for trouble and then when someone does get hurt "rocketry" gets blamed for it. It always seems to work out that way. If people would just make the effort to abide by the rules less people would get hurt. It's suppose to be a fun activity and no one should get hurt. Dodging rockets is not my idea of fun.

Agreed. If someone had been hurt, there was some property damage or a fire they would first blame the hobby and then the scouts. And, unfortunately, the scouts would likely not be allowed to fly at the ball field, or anywhere else for that matter, again. There are rules for a reason.
 
Next year, a serruptious phone call to the school district in advance, advising them of the liabilities of not adhering to the safety code, might be in order.
 
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Sent the following off to the BSA (2013, Oct 18 12:16pm PST):

To Whom It May Concern,

There is a concerned parent and amateur rocketeer who has been discussing dangerous practices at scouting events. You can read his discussion at the following link.

https://www.rocketryforum.com/showt...by-Idiots-in-charge-again&p=612819#post612819

as well as others mentioned in the following thread

https://www.rocketryforum.com/showt...Rocket-Safety-For-Educators-A-cautionary-tale

See post #20 (https://www.rocketryforum.com/showt...ucators-A-cautionary-tale&p=533482#post533482)

The behaviors shown by the scout leaders discussed in these threads are ones that the youth are taking as OK. They are NOT OK! We want our children to be able to enjoy a hobby with a long history of safety, and the Boy Scout leaders are flaunting the rules put in place for their own protection.

You should think long and hard about how you conduct these events, and who you allow as your Range Safety Officer, 'cause it's clear to me that the people you are currently allowing are only putting you and the scouts at risk for injury, property damage, and liability. Perhaps as a requirement for launches a certified member of the National Association of Rocketry (https://www.nar.org) should be present and in a position of instructor and Range Safety Officer for the safety and enjoyment of all participants.

I'd appreciate a response as to how you plan on correcting these issues

Oh, and btw... Here's NAR's Safety Codes:

Effective August 2012

  1. Materials. I will use only lightweight, non-metal parts for the nose, body, and fins of my rocket.
  2. Motors. I will use only certified, commercially-made model rocket motors, and will not tamper with these motors or use them for any purposes except those recommended by the manufacturer.
  3. Ignition System. I will launch my rockets with an electrical launch system and electrical motor igniters. My launch system will have a safety interlock in series with the launch switch, and will use a launch switch that returns to the "off" position when released.
  4. Misfires. If my rocket does not launch when I press the button of my electrical launch system, I will remove the launcher's safety interlock or disconnect its battery, and will wait 60 seconds after the last launch attempt before allowing anyone to approach the rocket.
  5. Launch Safety. I will use a countdown before launch, and will ensure that everyone is paying attention and is a safe distance of at least 15 feet away when I launch rockets with D motors or smaller, and 30 feet when I launch larger rockets. If I am uncertain about the safety or stability of an untested rocket, I will check the stability before flight and will fly it only after warning spectators and clearing them away to a safe distance. When conducting a simultaneous launch of more than ten rockets I will observe a safe distance of 1.5 times the maximum expected altitude of any launched rocket.
  6. Launcher. I will launch my rocket from a launch rod, tower, or rail that is pointed to within 30 degrees of the vertical to ensure that the rocket flies nearly straight up, and I will use a blast deflector to prevent the motor's exhaust from hitting the ground. To prevent accidental eye injury, I will place launchers so that the end of the launch rod is above eye level or will cap the end of the rod when it is not in use.
  7. Size. My model rocket will not weigh more than 1,500 grams (53 ounces) at liftoff and will not contain more than 125 grams (4.4 ounces) of propellant or 320 N-sec (71.9 pound-seconds) of total impulse.
  8. Flight Safety. I will not launch my rocket at targets, into clouds, or near airplanes, and will not put any flammable or explosive payload in my rocket.
  9. Launch Site. I will launch my rocket outdoors, in an open area at least as large as shown in the accompanying table, and in safe weather conditions with wind speeds no greater than 20 miles per hour. I will ensure that there is no dry grass close to the launch pad, and that the launch site does not present risk of grass fires.
  10. Recovery System. I will use a recovery system such as a streamer or parachute in my rocket so that it returns safely and undamaged and can be flown again, and I will use only flame-resistant or fireproof recovery system wadding in my rocket.
  11. Recovery Safety. I will not attempt to recover my rocket from power lines, tall trees, or other dangerous places.
 
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I'm glad you mentioned it. I just changed the title to be a little less abrasive in case they actually come read the thread.

Changing the title isn't going to help... the original title is part of the URL that was emailed to them...
 
I understand and agree that it is a little better to "be nice" to people (such as scout leaders) when attempting to persuade them to consider new practices.

However

This group has already been exposed to the safety recommendations. The NAR safety guidelines are packaged with just about every single kit and every motor. The NAR safety guide is very likely part of their local state/city laws which govern the acceptable uses of hobby rocket motors. I suspect that the NAR safety code is also printed somewhere in their own scout literature related to conducting launches and working toward rocketry merit badges.

These clowns have apparently demonstrated a consistent history of ignoring/defying/dismissing these safety procedures (refer to events described in initial post). At this point in time, a "slap upside their heads" is probably called for to regain their attention to this serious matter.

They need to learn about safety procedures before another kid gets speared in the chest with a hard plastic pointed NC.
 
I’m not happy of the choice of fields of the local CAR club here , so I found my own fields.
I’m not happy the way the local RSO (president of the CAR ) deal with peoples , so I start my own Tripoli Prefecture.

Find a field, start a small club, the parents will then see the difference. But don’t forget , kids come to play.
 
I've probably done a dozen Cub launches in the past seven or eight years. I ALWAYS
  • establish a rope line behind which everyone stays who is not launching
  • have a parent, older Boy Scout, or other older person with rocketry experience at each launch pad
  • have one person in overall charge of checking that everything is clear and calling out the countdown
  • give a safety briefing during which we launch a ceremonial "first rocket" (with the Cubmaster usually being the one to press the button) to demonstrate how it's done
The closest thing I've had to a safety problem was one dad who suggested we launch a 3FNC which only had two fins. I had to be firm with him, but he eventually got the message that it would be a bad idea to fly that one.
 
Yeah, if it's just a matter of 'doing things differently' that's one thing -- if rockets get lost in trees that's not really a huge tragedy -- but when basic safety regulations are being blatantly flouted and people are being put in danger, it's time to be "THAT GUY" and blow the whistle.

If something goes wrong and somebody really gets hurt the consequences could range from serious to catastrophic.

And yes, probably all you have to do is sound off to the high monkey-monks in the local organization that "I'm looking into the legal and insurance-liability ramifications of exposing kids to unneccesary risk by ignoring established safety standards" and most likely they will sit up and take notice REAL fast. :surprised:

I wouldn't mess with the media (and I've been in it), especially if safety codes aren't being followed. The vast vast majority of the time they'll be clueless about what's going on, and if they come out and find people doing goofy unsafe stuff, that's almost certainly what they'll focus upon.

End result most likely nothing will get fixed and if anything the Scouts (or whatever sponsoring organization is involved) will just throw up their hands and say, "the hell with it, rocketry is too much of a headache."

High monkey-monks??? WTH is a high monkey-monk?
 
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