CTI Discussion Thread

[3stoogesrocketry]

CTI , can we get a Smoky Sam load in the 75mm 2 grain range please

 

[Cesaroni Technology]

Were the motors in a larger diameter rocket? I've had the White fireball in the back of the rocket pretty thoroughly cook everything in the back of the rocket. One example was a K250 in my Magnum. 5.5" diameter with 6 outboard 29 mm mounts. Rocket came back with all 6 empty outboard tubes burned away and everything in back well scorched, including the SU motor's nozzle.

The issue was the diversion section of the nozzle degrading to the point of it being gone by the end of the burn. Size of the rocket wasn't a factor.

 

[Rocketjunkie]

The issue was the diversion section of the nozzle degrading to the point of it being gone by the end of the burn. Size of the rocket wasn't a factor.

It will if there is a large fireball under the rocket. The only time I had nozzle damage was the long burn White lightning motor in a large rocket. The same motor in a smaller (3") rocket had no problems.

 

[Cesaroni Technology]

So just keep flying both items as they are?

Tony

We can't make any recomendations until we know what the issues are. For the time being perhaps wait till we find a solution.

 

[Cesaroni Technology]

It will if there is a large fireball under the rocket. The only time I had nozzle damage was the long burn White lightning motor in a large rocket. The same motor in a smaller (3") rocket had no problems.
[/

Perhaps the slight extra time on the pad to lift the rocket due to the weight may heat the nozzle a little extra, and the slower excelleration, but I'd be surprised if it makes much of a difference.

 

[crossfire]

Thanks CTI for helping with Warranty claim. Plus thanks to Wildman for your help

 

[jondub]

Were the motors in a larger diameter rocket? I've had the White fireball in the back of the rocket pretty thoroughly cook everything in the back of the rocket. One example was a K250 in my Magnum. 5.5" diameter with 6 outboard 29 mm mounts. Rocket came back with all 6 empty outboard tubes burned away and everything in back well scorched, including the SU motor's nozzle.

Those nozzles were both flown in an M840. one is mine (Jonathan DuBose) and the other belongs to an Oregon rocketeer who actually flew it in the same hardware. Mine in Sept 2019, the other in June 2020 both at Black Rock. My motor definitely under-performed. I inquired with CTI but never got a response. Still very interested in the answer to this issue. Thanks "tfish" for bringing this up again (hope you are doing well, c u soon, J)

 

[Steve Shannon]

We can't make any recomendations until we know what the issues are. For the time being perhaps wait till we find a solution.

If Cesaroni suspects an issue they should immediately notify the certification authorities (CAR MCC, NAR S&T, and Tripoli TMT) and notify their dealers, even if no solution has been found yet.

 

[Tweeks]

Just to add some more stats to the 2020 38mm CATOs (CTI Nov 2019 batch).. Our club flew around a dozen or so H125s last summer for a bunch of university student certs that experienced an approximate 50% failure rate:


Since all motors were ordered at the same time, they all seemed to have the same Nov 2019 batch dates (below), some dated in black, and some in red (if it matters). I pulled the packaging out of the trash and documented them(below) and I think our Prefect filed a MESS report and called someone:


We did another round of certs this weekend (around 8-10 more students) using motors from the same bulk batch order, only this time did the forward closure epoxy hack, and had zero CATOS.

Getting Better At Reporting:
Getting timely CATO data back to the manufacturers (filing MESS reports to http://www.motorcato.org/ ) is a critical first step -- probably more important than threads like this one. As such, all NAR/TRA clubs should file such reports as soon as possible so that manufacturers can quickly diagnose and report back to the community, both though motorcato.org notifications/mitigations and through NAR/TRA back out to clubs. This is how we as a flyer/vendor community can get better at maximizing flyer safety and minimizing property damage.

Thoughts? Observations?

T.Weeks
President of nrvr.org

 

[Steve Shannon]

Absolutely correct Thomas! And please file one report for each motor that fails.

 

[cwbullet]

I know it will never happen, but some 18mm motors would be a great addition to the line. It would a way to lure some new users like a free sample of heroine does to drug users.

 

[Steve Shannon]

I know it will never happen, but some 18mm motors would be a great addition to the line. It would a way to lure some new users like a free sample of heroine does to drug users.

I still remember Mike Dennet from CTI saying that they would never make motors smaller than 38 mm because it just wasn’t profitable, so who knows?

 

[tbonerocketeer]

I know it will never happen, but some 18mm motors would be a great addition to the line. It would a way to lure some new users like a free sample of heroine does to drug users.

Based on the Aerotech 18mm sales, I wouldn't see this as a good move unless they are single use and priced to compete with estes motors.

 

[cwbullet]

Based on the Aerotech 18mm sales, I wouldn't see this as a good move unless they are single use and priced to compete with estes motors.

With 18mm motors, it is about hooking the user for the future. I understand it will not make you rich. They would likely need to be single use.

 

[airforcetp1991]

Any timeframe for a 98mm Gen2 boattail to be available? Thanks

-Tony

 

[BEC]

With 18mm motors, it is about hooking the user for the future. I understand it will not make you rich. They would likely need to be single use.

And they'd need to offer something that the current choices (including Black Max and White Lightning Q-Jets) don't. I'm not sure what would want, save for a long-burn motor that doesn't burn out its case like the Chinese-made BP Quest C6s sometimes did, that isn't covered by current Estes and Aerotech offerings in 18mm motors. Well that and maybe something closer to a full D than the Q-Jet Ds are (like the OOP D10s and D21s).

 

[boatgeek]

And they'd need to offer something that the current choices (including Black Max and White Lightning Q-Jets) don't. I'm not sure what would want, save for a long-burn motor that doesn't burn out its case like the Chinese-made BP Quest C6s sometimes did, that isn't covered by current Estes and Aerotech offerings in 18mm motors. Well that and maybe something closer to a full D than the Q-Jet Ds are (like the OOP D10s and D21s).

Red and blue Ds would be nice. But I may be weird for liking pretty colors.

 

[cwbullet]

With the current cost of BP or Quest motors, it may soon be cost-effective to compete.

 

[tsmith1315]

Based on the Aerotech 18mm sales, I wouldn't see this as a good move unless they are single use and priced to compete with estes motors.

I wouldn't have a problem with them being priced higher than Estes, but little to no hardware cost is a must. Too risky in those little rockets.

 

[BEC]

Red and blue Ds would be nice. But I may be weird for liking pretty colors.

Ooooh, an 18mm Blue Streak....I could get into that. I figure the Q-Jet Black Max motors have the Smoky Sam aspect covered (another favorite CTI load for me).

Based on the Aerotech 18mm sales, I wouldn't see this as a good move unless they are single use and priced to compete with estes motors.

Agreed...certainly they would need to be comparable to Q-Jets of similar impulse classes.

 

[airforcetp1991]

Any timeframe for a 98mm Gen2 boattail to be available? Thanks

-Tony

Heard from CTI, they said any day now.

 

[Theory]

AT / CTI cross load question.

I understand that, per Tripoli, 75mm AT loads can be used in CTI hardware. Very good news!

Question, can 75mm CTI loads be used in matching AT hardware?

My guess would be yes, but I am not one to guess with 75mm motors.

thanks

 

[Evolvant]

AT / CTI cross load question.

I understand that, per Tripoli, 75mm AT loads can be used in CTI hardware. Very good news!

Question, can 75mm CTI loads be used in matching AT hardware?

My guess would be yes, but I am not one to guess with 75mm motors.

thanks

Yes
http://www.pro38.com/faqs.php#compatibility

 

[Theory]

good deal!

thank you

 

[Cesaroni Technology]

AT / CTI cross load question.

I understand that, per Tripoli, 75mm AT loads can be used in CTI hardware. Very good news!

Question, can 75mm CTI loads be used in matching AT hardware?

My guess would be yes, but I am not one to guess with 75mm motors.

thanks

I believe so, check here.
http://www.aerotech-rocketry.com/up...571-8d9c-636fbc4b6cbc_AT Crossload Matrix.pdf

 

[Cesaroni Technology]

It's been some time since CTI has had anything new to offer, that will hopefully change in the near future.
For now I am very pleased to announce the certification of a new P98 Boat tail (Gen 2) from Cesaroni Technology, Inc.
While the boat tail was certified in Canada, a reciprocal agreement between the Canadian Association of Rocketry, the Tripoli Rocketry Association and the National Association of Rocketry means they may be flown in many jurisdictions.

 

[Rocketjunkie]

I use 75 and 98 CTI motors in AT cases regularly. Most CTI loads are certified in AT hardware. The reverse is not true. There are a few AT loads certified in CTI hardware but not many.

 

[Theory]

I believe so, check here.
http://www.aerotech-rocketry.com/up...571-8d9c-636fbc4b6cbc_AT Crossload Matrix.pdf

yes, thank you. i had seen that, but not the other way around, CTI loads in AT hardware.

in looking at the link that was provided to the CTI site, it looks like the two grain CTI 'Classic' and 'White Thunder' loads work in the AT 75/2560 hardware.

 

[HyperSonic]

It's been some time since CTI has had anything new to offer, that will hopefully change in the near future.
For now I am very pleased to announce the certification of a new P98 Boat tail (Gen 2) from Cesaroni Technology, Inc.
While the boat tail was certified in Canada, a reciprocal agreement between the Canadian Association of Rocketry, the Tripoli Rocketry Association and the National Association of Rocketry means they may be flown in many jurisdictions.

Do you have the dimensions of the adapter ring and the boat tail? I bought the PR98-AR and the PR98-BT for the Gen 2. The adapter ring looks to be the same size as a retaining ring, one half inch thick. When I tighten both the forward retaining ring until It's flush with the casing and the aft adapter ring so it sandwiches the motor between them, there are no threads left to screw on the boat tail. It almost seems like the adapter ring should be more than 1/2 inch thick. I am talking about the 5800 here with the 6xl case. When both 1/2 inch retaining rings are flush with the end of the casing, the motor is nice and tight between the rings.

 

[Reinhard]

Do you have the dimensions of the adapter ring and the boat tail? I bought the PR98-AR and the PR98-BT for the Gen 2. The adapter ring looks to be the same size as a retaining ring, one half inch thick. When I tighten both the forward retaining ring until It's flush with the casing and the aft adapter ring so it sandwiches the motor between them, there are no threads left to screw on the boat tail. It almost seems like the adapter ring should be more than 1/2 inch thick. I am talking about the 5800 here with the 6xl case. When both 1/2 inch retaining rings are flush with the end of the casing, the motor is nice and tight between the rings.

It should be thicker than the retaining ring. Does the ring come with an engraving "Adapter Ring"?

See for example here:
https://www.sunward1.com/product/pro98-adapter-ring-for-boat-tail-p98-ar-v2/
Reinhard