CTI Discussion Thread

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DarthMuffin

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A couple of questions for CTI:

1) Status of the 54mm forward closure improvements?
2) Can we get more imax 54mm options?
3) Any chance of more "dual thrust" type options? Perhaps using a white thunder grain instead of VMAX?
 
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Cesaroni Technology

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A couple of questions for CTI:

1) Status of the 54mm forward closure improvements?
2) Can we get more imax 54mm options?
3) Any chance of more "dual thrust" type options? Perhaps using a white thunder grain instead of VMAX?
Thanks for your inquiry.
1) We've had some delays and are currently upgrading our thrust stands and data capture programs, hopefully done by the new year and have new motors certified by spring, possibly also with a new forward closure for the P54's
2) Planning on new P54 IM's
3) Testing had begun on P54 6G dual thrust motors using White Thunder propellant in place of VMax. While the initial and total thrust won't be quite as high as with VMax, it will be fairly close
 

DarthMuffin

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Thanks for your inquiry.
1) We've had some delays and are currently upgrading our thrust stands and data capture programs, hopefully done by the new year and have new motors certified by spring, possibly also with a new forward closure for the P54's
2) Planning on new P54 IM's
3) Testing had begun on P54 6G dual thrust motors using White Thunder propellant in place of VMax. While the initial and total thrust won't be quite as high as with VMax, it will be fairly close
All great news, thank you!
 

Tim51

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Thanks for your inquiry.
1) We've had some delays and are currently upgrading our thrust stands and data capture programs, hopefully done by the new year and have new motors certified by spring, possibly also with a new forward closure for the P54's
2) Planning on new P54 IM's
3) Testing had begun on P54 6G dual thrust motors using White Thunder propellant in place of VMax. While the initial and total thrust won't be quite as high as with VMax, it will be fairly close
Exciting news - thanks!
 

rfjustin

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Thanks for your inquiry.
1) We've had some delays and are currently upgrading our thrust stands and data capture programs, hopefully done by the new year and have new motors certified by spring, possibly also with a new forward closure for the P54's
2) Planning on new P54 IM's
3) Testing had begun on P54 6G dual thrust motors using White Thunder propellant in place of VMax. While the initial and total thrust won't be quite as high as with VMax, it will be fairly close
I'm glad to hear the 54's are getting some much needed attention. I had a K-1440 issue over the weekend which burned through around the nozzle. Warranty form filled out and sent to my vendor, MESS report submitted as well.

Best,
Resized_20211120_094042_7329.jpegResized_20211120_152217_9759.jpegResized_20211123_053935_3595.jpegResized_20211123_053954_7705.jpegMESS.JPG
 

woferry

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On the 54mm forward closure front, I had a K300CL CATO back at LDRS 37 in 2018 (MESS filed at the time). AMW was on-site and replaced the case and submitted the warranty form for the motor, but every time I've checked with them since they still hadn't received the replacement motor. Any chance I'll ever get it? Thanks.

IMG_3930.JPG
 

Banzai88

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On the 54mm forward closure front, I had a K300CL CATO back at LDRS 37 in 2018 (MESS filed at the time). AMW was on-site and replaced the case and submitted the warranty form for the motor, but every time I've checked with them since they still hadn't received the replacement motor. Any chance I'll ever get it? Thanks.

View attachment 491560
I've heard and experienced 1+ish year waits for warranty claims....but 3 YEARS?

That's wholly unacceptable. You should have been offered money or equavelent product long long ago.
 

Dipstick

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I've heard and experienced 1+ish year waits for warranty claims....but 3 YEARS?

That's wholly unacceptable. You should have been offered money or equavelent product long long ago.
My dealer had a new case and motor in a couple weeks...🤔
 

Mike Haberer

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I've heard and experienced 1+ish year waits for warranty claims....but 3 YEARS?

That's wholly unacceptable. You should have been offered money or equavelent product long long ago.
I initially thought CTI was the way to go for reloads, since they seem easier to build than AT, but if I ever decide to do reloads (plenty of DMS motors at this point in 54mm and down), I'll go with AT given the plethora of QC and support issues. With the limited launch windows we all experience, customer service matters.

CTI, are you paying attention??????
 

Banzai88

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I initially thought CTI was the way to go for reloads, since they seem easier to build than AT, but if I ever decide to do reloads (plenty of DMS motors at this point in 54mm and down), I'll go with AT given the plethora of QC and support issues. With the limited launch windows we all experience, customer service matters.

CTI, are you paying attention??????
The lag in warranty response, the ever growing list of 38mm reload issues, and the 54mm fwd closure issues are why I only fly 38 and 54 in other providers, and will continue to do so until issues are addressed. Got tired of long Vegas odds on getting a launch or a cato with $500+ worth of rocket.
 

woferry

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To follow-up, CTI did reach out to me via DM this morning. I was only checking-in with AMW when I see them at a launch (always figured I'd pick it up rather than expecting it to be shipped), which is around once a year, so it's not like I was aggressively pursuing this. I haven't rebuilt the rocket that was destroyed by the CATO yet, even though I've had all the replacement parts for years, so I'm not moving fast on this one, either. =)
 

Handeman

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Any thought or consideration on changing how the packaging is done for reloads?
I got my Wildman Black Friday order and the reload had pushed the paper cap stapled into the end of the tube out of the tube and the staples tore holes in the pink plastic bag. That actually happened on both ends of the tube.

I haven't checked the reload yet. I'm assuming it's OK, but the staples tore the pink plastic bag, they might have nicked the o-rings.
 

T34zac

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Any thought or consideration on changing how the packaging is done for reloads?
I got my Wildman Black Friday order and the reload had pushed the paper cap stapled into the end of the tube out of the tube and the staples tore holes in the pink plastic bag. That actually happened on both ends of the tube.

I haven't checked the reload yet. I'm assuming it's OK, but the staples tore the pink plastic bag, they might have nicked the o-rings.
I use a pair of pliers to pull the staples out before I pull the reload out, just to avoid stuff like that.
 

Handeman

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I use a pair of pliers to pull the staples out before I pull the reload out, just to avoid stuff like that.
The problem I had was that it arrived that way in the UPS package. Both ends of the pink bag got tore in shipping. I had to tape the ends shut to close it back up.
 

crossfire

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Any thought or consideration on changing how the packaging is done for reloads?
I got my Wildman Black Friday order and the reload had pushed the paper cap stapled into the end of the tube out of the tube and the staples tore holes in the pink plastic bag. That actually happened on both ends of the tube.

I haven't checked the reload yet. I'm assuming it's OK, but the staples tore the pink plastic bag, they might have nicked the o-rings.
What is the date on reload? Sounds like it's been around for awhile. I have flew a lot of CTI reloads and have never seen that.
 

Handeman

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What is the date on reload? Sounds like it's been around for awhile. I have flew a lot of CTI reloads and have never seen that.
The date is 7 May 2021. I'm sure it was how it was handled during shipping that caused the issue. The reload was tossed around by the UPS handles. Apparently Hazmat and Explosives stickers don't make them handle the package any gentler. It looks like the reload just pushed and tore the paper cap off the staples and tore the plastic bag as it slid past the staples. And it did it on both ends.

None of the caps on the Aerotech reloads in the same package were tore or open.

It just seems the method CTI uses of stapling a paper cap in the end of the shipping tube to close it up is insufficient to protect the reload during shipping. I'm not saying to adapt the Aerotech method, but that does work. I just think a better and more secure method of closing up the reload shipping tubes need to be found.

I'm also not a fan of having the motor starter in bag stuck to the side of the tube. I have seen some where the starter just wasn't there.
 

Wayco

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Does anyone know how much black powder is in a CTI 29 mm reload?
 

Mike Haberer

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Does anyone know how much black powder is in a CTI 29 mm reload?
It's all documented. You should always go to the manufacturer website and pull down all of the doc. I have it with me at a launch site in a launch day binder.
 

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Buckeye

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Any thought or consideration on changing how the packaging is done for reloads?
I got my Wildman Black Friday order and the reload had pushed the paper cap stapled into the end of the tube out of the tube and the staples tore holes in the pink plastic bag. That actually happened on both ends of the tube.

I haven't checked the reload yet. I'm assuming it's OK, but the staples tore the pink plastic bag, they might have nicked the o-rings.
More importantly, how do you already have your Wildman Black Friday order?!?!?!
 

Handeman

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More importantly, how do you already have your Wildman Black Friday order?!?!?!
Not sure! I joined the Wildman Club a few days before and it was all motors that were listed "In Stock" Guess my order might have been a "low hanging fruit" and they got it done and out of the way so they can deal with all the others that might have to wait for restock.
 

T34zac

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Back in late October I had a K300 that blew it's nozzle out right at ignition. Submitted a MESS report and a warranty claim. I was fortunate enough to not have any damage to my rocket or electronics.

Yesterday I received my replacement reload and casing, and flew it the same day. Again the nozzle blew out, although this time about a second into the burn. This time I wasn't so lucky with the rocket, the fin can is and nosecone shoulder have damage. Already submitted another MESS report, but this is an issue that needs to be fixed. I know three other K300s that have had similar failures this year alone.

I would highly advise anyone to not buy these reloads until CTI fixes these motors.
 

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cerving

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I use a pair of pliers to pull the staples out before I pull the reload out, just to avoid stuff like that.
I used to struggle opening CTI packages too, until I figured out the magic technique... just take a pair of pliers and twist open the tube at the seam, it comes right apart.
 

Neutron95

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Back in late October I had a K300 that blew it's nozzle out right at ignition. Submitted a MESS report and a warranty claim. I was fortunate enough to not have any damage to my rocket or electronics.

Yesterday I received my replacement reload and casing, and flew it the same day. Again the nozzle blew out, although this time about a second into the burn. This time I wasn't so lucky with the rocket, the fin can is and nosecone shoulder have damage. Already submitted another MESS report, but this is an issue that needs to be fixed. I know three other K300s that have had similar failures this year alone.

I would highly advise anyone to not buy these reloads until CTI fixes these motors.
CTI really needs to address this. From what I've heard, most of the K300 failures haven't been consistent with the forward closure problems that have been plaguing the other 54 6XL reloads.

Then there's the J145, which has had enough failures that I'm more surprised to see one work than to see one CATO. I don't know if they somehow made a batch with the wrong ignition pellet or what, but that reload should also be looked into.
 

davebr

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I had a rear closure fail on a J285 last spring (finally filed a MESS report today).

The rocket is a bit odd, the fin can area was heavily reinforced for some planned tests, which will have to wait on the next version of the rocket.

Interesting points:

After the rear closure releases (but was still held to the motor mount by the motor retainer) the case slid forward, and continued to burn for about 1/6 second until the motor retainer released. The blue tube motor mount held against combustion chamber pressure and temperature for about 1/6 second. This is based on frame by frame analysis of a video of the flight and looking at the bits and pieces.
.
The parachute did not deploy, after impact it was still in the nomex deployment bag. The bag did not show heat damage, or smell of black powder residue, however the nylon parachute and shrouds showed heat damage (holes and melted together in places).

I've attached a draft report, the pictures and some of the simpler calculations should be good.

My estimates of forces during the motor failure are based on wild guesses at combustion pressure and temperature. My attempts to estimate forces during the various impacts are my best attempt at analysis, but I'd really appreciate any suggestions for better approaches.

I still have all the (increasingly cut up) bits if any one has ideas for things to look for.

Analyzing the crash has been a lot of fun.

Dave B
 

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