crazy launch experience

[g3d]

Having recently returned to rocketry after a ~20 year absence, I'm very excited to play around with Open Rocket to create my own designs, where I can rapidly build and launch - for the time being - low-power scratch-built models.

Since I'm doing launches using Estes B & C motors, I scoped out several local parks for a good launch site, and settled on one that is used for equestrian riding. It is a large park with riding trails, open fields, and riding areas, with a very large dirt & gravel parking log which is almost always empty. Because the parking lot is the size of several football fields, and is surrounded by more open space, I thought this would be an ideal place to fly as it is only 5 minutes from my house.

To date, I have flown there 5 times, and the first 4 times I had a very good experience, and several times had bystanders walk up and show a high level of interest in my rockets, and wanted to watch the launches. Note that I only do any launching when I have good weather, the parking lot is empty, and there are no persons, etc. with several hundred yards.

This past weekend however, a local woman who lives close to the park, and has horses, saw me setting up for flying. She literally snuck-up behind me, and angrily confronted me and accused me of illegal activities. (She literally was screaming at me, which surprised the heck out of me) I told her that it wasn't illegal, from which she said she would call the police. She then walked away and proceeded to call 911, and informed them that I was deploying explosive devices and using fire, possibly intending to create bombs, and at the very least to create illegal fireworks, and that I was going to kill someone. (I know this because that is what the police reported to me upon arrival)

Within 5 minutes, 4 police officers in 3 squad cars converged on the scene, at which time I had to submit to a very heavy-handed grilling and a search of my person, rocketry equipment, and vehicle. Fortunately, I was able to easily diffuse the situation as they could plainly see I only had model rockets with "toy" engines. This was aided by the fact that my off-the-cuff lecture on rocket design and the affect of airfoil fins on stability, including calculating CP versus CG made their eyes glaze over, as well as the fact that I had written records of my flights and an altimeter for recording flight data.

However, I did receive an ultimatum to never fly there again, because the person who called them owned horses, and the park is intended for riding. After discussing the situation, they did say they would talk to the person who started the incident with things blown way out of proportion. During this incident, a guy showed up to fly his RC aircraft. I asked if he was allowed to fly at the park, and they responded that since there was no complaint about RC aircraft, there is nothing stopping him from flying.

Obviously, I would never like to experience this kind of situation again, and upon reflection, I wonder if I actually, in fact, did do something wrong here by inadvertently violating some safety rule(s)? How do you go about picking a local launch site for low-powered model rocketry in such a way as to avoid this kind of situation?

I can easily avoid this situation by attending club launches in the future, however I would like to continue to pursue the hobby by flying locally. Though this experience has made me very hesitant about future involvement, as this entire incident scared the crap out of me.

In any case, I want to be safe while having fun. So if any criticism or advice (hey, I'm willing to take some lumps here) would be appreciated.

 

[Zetoyoc]

Wow that is quite the experience. But it sounds like you handled it well and being a well informed and courteous flier served you well and kept things from getting too out of hand on your end. Personally I would not return to the park with the complaint (I really want to say crazy lady) there, but would still find safe local fields to enjoy private launches in. I do not know if any law or ordinance was broken. It may depend on the owner of the field more than official laws. but still the courteous thing to do once asked politely to leave would be to do just that.

you will forever have a great story to tell

-Z

 

[Rex R]

getting permission from the land owner 1st (preferably in writing if you want to launch more than once). can do wonders to avoid problems. in any group of people one can usually find someone that has a problem with anything that involves fun other than their own version.

 

[chadrog]

getting permission from the land owner 1st (preferably in writing if you want to launch more than once). can do wonders to avoid problems. in any group of people one can usually find someone that has a problem with anything that involves fun other than their own version.

Especially horse people and dog people, as all WOOSH members know too well...

 

[JStarStar]

Having recently returned to rocketry after a ~20 year absence, I'm very excited to play around with Open Rocket to create my own designs, where I can rapidly build and launch - for the time being - low-power scratch-built models.

Since I'm doing launches using Estes B & C motors, I scoped out several local parks for a good launch site, and settled on one that is used for equestrian riding. It is a large park with riding trails, open fields, and riding areas, with a very large dirt & gravel parking log which is almost always empty. Because the parking lot is the size of several football fields, and is surrounded by more open space, I thought this would be an ideal place to fly as it is only 5 minutes from my house.

To date, I have flown there 5 times, and the first 4 times I had a very good experience, and several times had bystanders walk up and show a high level of interest in my rockets, and wanted to watch the launches. Note that I only do any launching when I have good weather, the parking lot is empty, and there are no persons, etc. with several hundred yards.

This past weekend however, a local woman who lives close to the park, and has horses, saw me setting up for flying. She literally snuck-up behind me, and angrily confronted me and accused me of illegal activities. (She literally was screaming at me, which surprised the heck out of me) I told her that it wasn't illegal, from which she said she would call the police. She then walked away and proceeded to call 911, and informed them that I was deploying explosive devices and using fire, possibly intending to create bombs, and at the very least to create illegal fireworks, and that I was going to kill someone. (I know this because that is what the police reported to me upon arrival)

Within 5 minutes, 4 police officers in 3 squad cars converged on the scene, at which time I had to submit to a very heavy-handed grilling and a search of my person, rocketry equipment, and vehicle. Fortunately, I was able to easily diffuse the situation as they could plainly see I only had model rockets with "toy" engines. This was aided by the fact that my off-the-cuff lecture on rocket design and the affect of airfoil fins on stability, including calculating CP versus CG made their eyes glaze over, as well as the fact that I had written records of my flights and an altimeter for recording flight data.

However, I did receive an ultimatum to never fly there again, because the person who called them owned horses, and the park is intended for riding. After discussing the situation, they did say they would talk to the person who started the incident with things blown way out of proportion. During this incident, a guy showed up to fly his RC aircraft. I asked if he was allowed to fly at the park, and they responded that since there was no complaint about RC aircraft, there is nothing stopping him from flying.

Obviously, I would never like to experience this kind of situation again, and upon reflection, I wonder if I actually, in fact, did do something wrong here by inadvertently violating some safety rule(s)? How do you go about picking a local launch site for low-powered model rocketry in such a way as to avoid this kind of situation?

I can easily avoid this situation by attending club launches in the future, however I would like to continue to pursue the hobby by flying locally. Though this experience has made me very hesitant about future involvement, as this entire incident scared the crap out of me.

In any case, I want to be safe while having fun. So if any criticism or advice (hey, I'm willing to take some lumps here) would be appreciated.

If you are a taxpayer in the park district, talk to your city commissioner (or park commissioner -- whoever runs the park) and ask him to introduce a measure allowing the park to be used for hobby aircraft or rocketry use when not reserved for equestrian use.

You're a taxpayer as much as this B**** (fill in your own blanks). Your tax money goes to maintain this huge park from which nobody gets any benefits, unless they own horses.

The idea that all citizens must leave this park empty at all times on the odd chance that some horse people MIGHT show up and want to ride around is preposterous.

It would probably be a good idea to join the NAR before doing all this, so you have the insurance-coverage card to play ahead of time. Officious-bureaucrat types love to say "no" to anything with any possible chance of exposing them to liability. It would also help a LOT if you can find another taxpaying resident or two who can join in your fight.

Probably a workable compromise solution would be to propose;

1) The park must be left open for equestrian activities at times it is expressly reserved for that reason by organized equestrian groups. That gives the equestrians first shot at the "equestrian park."

(However such requests must be legitimate -- you cannot block off 12-hour blocks at a time because "we might feel like riding horses." Repeated reservations made simply for the function of keeping others out of the park should result in loss of reservation privileges.)

2) If not expressly reserved for organized equestrian activities, the park may be used by any other citizens participating in any otherwise legal activity on a first-come first-served basis.

 

[modeltrains]

In knowing people who raise horses https://www.rileypainthorses.com/ I can tell you that even the clank of car keys dropped on asphalt can spook a horse.

 

[modeltrains]

getting permission from the land owner 1st .

I scoped out several local parks for a good launch site,

If it's the public's park, he is part owner, just like with the public's airwaves.

 

[shreadvector]

ANYWHERE in the State of California you are required to obtain permission of the property owner AND a permit from the Fire Authority Having Jurisdiction.

Failure to do so can result in a fine of up to $1000 and/or one year in jail for EACH violation. Each illegal launch of a rocket is an individual violation. This is not a traffic ticket, it is a misdemeanor crime.

IF you had started a fire while launching illegally, you would also have been charged the cost of putting out the fire. The last time there was a large fire clearly started by an illegal Model Rocket launch was many years ago in Yorba Linda and the parents were hit with over $125,000 cost and that was so low because no structures were destroyed - simply the cost of the fire fighters and equipment to put out the brushfire and keep it away from homes and buildings. IF anyone dies as a result of an illegal fire, in CA you will be charged with murder. Period. Review news reports of past brushfires started by arsonists.

There is a legal launch held twice a month in Los Angeles County:
https://home.earthlink.net/~mebowitz/

Next launch is Saturday, October 1, 2011. Launches run from 8 am until noon. Arrive before 8 and have your flight cards filled out in advance and enjoy the launch.

 

[gdjsky01]

This is the unfortunate part of living in the second most populous area of the country. You can not launch model rockets anywhere in the state without the landowners permission including public parks, and fire authority's permission. It sucks and there is no reason for it beyond any other state that has dry brush. But it is what it is.

I mean, I don't buy that launching in the South Bay area, which as humidities in the 50s to 70s almost all the time, is dangerous in a lush green park or school field. But is the reality. And then there is the matter of Zamperini Field being close by. And LAX etc. etc. etc. If we get the park's permission, or school's, permission, AND the fire authorities permission, AND were far enough away from airfields we'd be golden. But getting all these stars to line up is not easy. And a single resident complaining is likely to put all that hard effort down the cr@pper.

There are WONDERFUL reasons for living in this area. Having R/C and Rocketry nearby is not one of them.

As Fred says, we can pay 10 bucks (and 20 in gas) and launch at the SCRA launches twice or three times a month, or drive to Lucerne and launch there once a month. Or drive to Fiesta Island in San Diego and launch there (and Plaster City most months)... but they are all organized launches. SCRA is actually pretty strict as to what you can launch - they pretty much follow the letter of the law. But they are the one's who got the field!

To address your question to me, I have no place other than SCRA and ROC. I imagine it's child's play to get permission to launch Model Rockets (under 500g yada yada yada) at Lucerne. Indeed I know people who have. The fire people there are 'used' to it. But it's 40-80 bucks in gas for me.

So I suffer through only 2 or 3 launches a month. I guess I am a half full guy in this matter as there are people right now that can not launch at all.

AFAIK there is no other "I just want to go launch some low power stuff" place around.

 

[JStarStar]

Ooops, I take all my previous post back. I hadn't read the California location.

California of course has the most restrictive rocketry laws in the nation, so as several others have observed, you are probably just better off attending an organized launch where all permissions and legal clearances have been arranged ahead of time.

The rest of us of course are used to living in most of the other 49 states where if you just feel like launching rockets some afternoon, you can do it. However no matter where you are it is always better to make sure you have the land owner's permission before launching.

 

[gdjsky01]

The rest of us of course are used to living in most of the other 49 states where if you just feel like launching rockets some afternoon, you can do it. However no matter where you are it is always better to make sure you have the land owner's permission before launching.

sigh... why do I always feel the need to answer these post??? :bangpan::bangpan::bangpan::bangpan:

I think that MIGHT be a large generalization. I'd be surprised if in D.C. you could walk onto the national mall, or in NYC you could walk into the middle of central park, and launch a few model rockets for an hour. But pls, someone prove me wrong. :wink:

I am not gonna defend California. It does has a large and stupid government. It also has more people than any other state by a wide wide margin. Having a large and stupid government it certainly is not a unique affliction to California. Sure in Utah or parts of Nevada and Arizona and dozens and dozens of other wide open places, you go, you launch, you leave. Fine. I don't want to live there. Launching rockets had not (yet) been my #1 reason for where I live. Only ASTRONOMY could do that to me!!

There is still a reason why people live here and many are great reasons. Just our laws and such are not one of them.

YMMV

 

[o1d_dude]

Launching rockets had not (yet) been my #1 reason for where I live. Only ASTRONOMY could do that to me!!

Or at least live within a 90 minute drive of dark locations at a decent altitude! LOL!

I feel your pain. Observing sessions up at Blue Canyon airport (elev 6000 ft and the Milky Way is bright enough to cast shadows) have killed my desire to set up the scope in my backyard where the skies are rated RED on the Bortle night sky darkness scale.

 

[bill2654]

Advise....move away from California!

 

[jis2]

How the heck is a kid supposed to get involved in this hobby in your state!! Its very sad for the missed youth oppertunities your state seems to be smashing out of exsistance! ,Jim

 

[gdjsky01]

How the heck is a kid supposed to get involved in this hobby in your state!! Its very sad for the missed youth oppertunities your state seems to be smashing out of exsistance! ,Jim

On the whole, I understand and agree. Especially for a state that used to be THE center of aerospace research - IMHO.

Believe it or not, this is where clubs come to the rescue. SCRA hosts 100's of kids a year (much to my chagrin sometimes). And ROC hosts a two day event called ROC-tober which is specifically geared, though not exclusive to, kids.

There is even a science teacher, right here on TRF trying to work with the LAUSD and the fire department to hold a launch in the school yard for his class. I am not sure if he's pulled it off. But he was trying.

I suppose anything is possible. I just am not a crusader.:confused2:

 

[sylvie369]

sigh... why do I always feel the need to answer these post??? :bangpan::bangpan::bangpan::bangpan:

I think that MIGHT be a large generalization. I'd be surprised if in D.C. you could walk onto the national mall, or in NYC you could walk into the middle of central park, and launch a few model rockets for an hour. But pls, someone prove me wrong. :wink:

I very much doubt that it was legal, but about 12 years ago I was in DC for a convention, and as I came out of the National Gallery, heard the familiar wooshing of Estes motors. Over in front of the National Air and Space Museum, a NASM guard and his son had set up a pad and were flying three little Estes kits on B6-4s. Yup, right there on the Mall, in that little area in the middle with no trees, maybe 1200 feet from the Capitol.

I walked over and talked with them, figuring it was my once-in-a-lifetime chance to be at a rocket launch there. They were very nice, and utterly naive - I didn't press the point, but it was really clear that they hadn't asked anyone's permission, and it hadn't occurred to them that there might be any objections.

The world didn't end. They weren't on the news that night, no police came running over with guns drawn, nothing. I found it very refreshing. I hope they continue to get away with it.

 

[jis2]

I can see you all have great clubs out there , what Im speaking to is the kid that doesnt have the parental support to get to a launch , that earns his own money mowing yards or throwing papers that runs down to the hobby shop buys and builds his rocket only to be denied by the state of Cali the ability to fly ?? I probably would have givin up and found something less desirable to do! Those are the missed children Im refering to.

 

[MClark]

People that ride horses are just playing with their food.
The Other Red Meat.
Mark

 

[luke strawwalker]

People that ride horses are just playing with their food.
The Other Red Meat.
Mark

Antique farm equipment...

Heck I run cows and I've never even ridden a horse-- no desire to, either!

My great-granddad was the first one in this county to own a tractor-- never looked back! Kept the horses around until my grandmother was a teenager and once Jim and Molly (Percherons) were gone that was it. Hasn't been a horse on the place since.

I've seen a lot of "horse people" who more closely resemble their mount's backside, if you know what I mean... They're usually VERY uptight and VERY high strung-- not unlike horses... LOL

later! OL JR

 

[KennB]

How the heck is a kid supposed to get involved in this hobby in your state!! Its very sad for the missed youth oppertunities your state seems to be smashing out of exsistance! ,Jim

You said it, Jim.


BTW, how's the surfing in Iowa? :wink:

 

[jis2]

Hehehe.... good one Kenn:jaw:

 

[DAllen]

Should have asked the police why they aren't going to prosecute her for providing false information. What exactly did she see that was "possibly creating a bomb?" Seriously. If those cops had any common sense they would have stormed over to her house and gave a good grilling for calling 911 with a bunch of BS information.

 

[Eric1]

Should have asked the police why they aren't going to prosecute her for providing false information. What exactly did she see that was "possibly creating a bomb?" Seriously. If those cops had any common sense they would have stormed over to her house and gave a good grilling for calling 911 with a bunch of BS information.

True, But You can bet that didn't happen.
My favorite horse was in the "Burger form" I ate in Rota Spain.
Other than that they are just giant Poop machines.
Well, there is also JELL-O!

Eric Foster

 

[JStarStar]

Living in one of the "other 49" I can attest (like all BARs can) it is getting harder and harder and harder to find suitable launch sites.

Since the late 1960s when I was a grade schooler getting into rocketry, the population of the nation has doubled and urban sprawl has eaten up many of the open spaces in which we used to launch.

My younger sister now lives in our parents' house we all lived in growing up, so I get back to visit and see my old launch sites fairly often. When I was a kid we had 3 or 4 sites within a 10-minute bike ride where we could launch.

Mainly we used to launch in a huge open field (80 acres) behind our house. (We could actually launch small 1/2A and A stuff right from our back yard.) That was cut into subdivsions and apartment buildings 20 years ago.

We also used to launch in a schoolyard a half-mile away. That's been cut into by houses, plus overgrown by trees (they used to be 10 feet tall, now they're 50). Same with a nearby golf course.

Plus in those days we never really used to worry about legal liability, but now you BETTER worry about it or you could end up being very sorry.

The idea of a kid packing a few rockets into a bike basket and pedaling 5 minutes to a vacant field to launch is just about dead. Pretty much any time you want to launch rockets now, daddy has to pack up the SUV.

Of course, OTOH, kids don't just jump on their bikes and pedal off to play baseball or basketball any more, either.

 

[luke strawwalker]

You said it, Jim.


BTW, how's the surfing in Iowa? :wink:

"CHARLIE DON'T SURF!!!!!"

I wondered when I'd EVER get a chance to use that movie line conversationally... LOL :wink:

That's from Robert Duvall in "Apocalypse Now"...

Later! OL JR

 

[gdjsky01]

Living in one of the "other 49" I can attest (like all BARs can) it is getting harder and harder and harder to find suitable launch sites.

SNIP

The idea of a kid packing a few rockets into a bike basket and pedaling 5 minutes to a vacant field to launch is just about dead. Pretty much any time you want to launch rockets now, daddy has to pack up the SUV.

Of course, OTOH, kids don't just jump on their bikes and pedal off to play baseball or basketball any more, either.

Thanks. I was beginning to think everyone else on TRF lived on the great plains on a farm. IIRC 2/3rds of the population live within 50 miles of the coast lines, or something like that. It's just reality for most of us. Rockets are not the only long suffering hobbyists. So too R/C flyers.

I grew up in the late 60's early 70's. My friend and I would pedal to Longridge Jr High on Mt Read Blvd in Greece NY (a suburb of Rochester). Setup. Launch. And pedal home. It's still there, the sports field. Cept now it's completely fenced.

My wife grew up when Disneyland (in California) was surrounded by fields. If you've been there in the last 20 years, you know you couldn't find a field around there today if I superglued it to your 'ar%e'. :lol:

That's just not reality anymore for 66 to 75% of us anymore.

 

[MarkII]

The idea of a kid packing a few rockets into a bike basket and pedaling 5 minutes to a vacant field to launch is just about dead.[Snip...]

Move up here; it is still very much the case where I live. That is, if anyone in town besides me ever actually wished to launch rockets.

Of course, OTOH, kids don't just jump on their bikes and pedal off to play baseball or basketball any more, either.

True; around here they generally walk to the field or to the court.

But this ain't the city. Nor is it the suburbs. Or even the exurbs.* We are waaaayyyyyy beyond there...





* So sorry, no 4G service here. Barely even 3G. That is, when you can get a signal. No FourSquare. No 24 hour vegan Thai take-out. No Segways. No Whole Foods. No Apple Store. No Ikea. No Starbucks. Not even a mall. Or even a real shopping district. No Street-View; Google hasn't made it out here yet. And no thuggish, super-entitled soccer clubs. Instead, we have hockey clubs that fulfill that role. You weren't planning on going down to the rink to launch your rockets, were you? No gangs. No graffiti. Tagging here is what you do to your deer after you get it. No guard dogs. Lots of hunting dogs. No metal detectors at the entrance to the playground. No fence around the playground. No security guard at school. No guns stuck in the belt. Lots of gun racks in the cab. The last time that I locked my car was 6 years ago. I sometimes forget to lock my door at night. Or to even close it. I left my chainsaw out on the back step when I went away for a week. When I returned, it was still there. You do have to lock up your garbage, though. Because of the bears. No "pants on the floor." Lots of suspenders. When you see someone wearing a flannel shirt, the person isn't a punker or a head-banger. And Luke: no light pollution. I can clearly see the Milky Way overhead every night when there isn't cloud cover. Sometimes I can also pick out the Andromeda Galaxy with the naked eye.

 

[luke strawwalker]

Move up here; it is still very much the case where I live. That is, if anyone in town besides me ever actually wished to launch rockets.

True; around here they generally walk to the field or to the court.

But this ain't the city. Nor is it the suburbs. Or even the exurbs.* We are waaaayyyyyy beyond there...





* So sorry, no 4G service here. Barely even 3G. That is, when you can get a signal. No FourSquare. No 24 hour vegan Thai take-out. No Segways. No Whole Foods. No Apple Store. No Ikea. No Starbucks. Not even a mall. Or even a real shopping district. No Street-View; Google hasn't made it out here yet. And no thuggish, super-entitled soccer clubs. Instead, we have hockey clubs that fulfill that role. You weren't planning on going down to the rink to launch your rockets, were you? No gangs. No graffiti. Tagging here is what you do to your deer after you get it. No guard dogs. Lots of hunting dogs. No metal detectors at the entrance to the playground. No fence around the playground. No security guard at school. No guns stuck in the belt. Lots of gun racks in the cab. The last time that I locked my car was 6 years ago. I sometimes forget to lock my door at night. Or to even close it. I left my chainsaw out on the back step when I went away for a week. When I returned, it was still there. You do have to lock up your garbage, though. Because of the bears. No "pants on the floor." Lots of suspenders. When you see someone wearing a flannel shirt, the person isn't a punker or a head-banger. And Luke: no light pollution. I can clearly see the Milky Way overhead every night when there isn't cloud cover. Sometimes I can also pick out the Andromeda Galaxy with the naked eye.

Cool.... little slice of heaven. If the words "NEW YORK" weren't attached to it in any way whatsoever (and if I weren't firmly rooted here) I'd be there in a second!

We're slowly being engulfed by a spreading fungus-- HOUSTON! I'm keeping my eye toward the west 100 miles at Shiner-- want to move up there *someday* when jobs and stuff aren't an issue. Used to be that we were in a pretty good spot-- 15 minutes away from just about anything you need in Rosenberg/Richmond (40,000-ish population combined) and 35 minutes from the edge of Houston and all the malls, strip centers, big stores, etc. Now we're slowly being enveloped by "McMansions" and over-moneyed, overspending, over-privileged, and over-opinionated morons slinking their way out of the burb's and coming here... :eyeroll:

Must be nice being able to actually do astronomy from home... it's difficult at best at 44 feet above sea level! Never mind the fact that the light pollution from Houston glows the entire eastern sky here like a blast furnace-- couldn't imagine the sky being much brighter if the entire city was burning to the ground! Whoever invented sodium lights should be shot! I won't have one on the place! Stupid neighbors though-- first thing they do after moving in-- put up a d@mn sodium light! Stupid neighbor across the road's sodium light casts shadows in my bedroom window at night, despite being 3/8 mile away... What are they skeered of?? That's what GUNS are for!!! :kill:

I was BLOWN AWAY by the night sky when we were out at Yellowstone a couple three years ago... I pulled off the road to get some shots with my 35mm of an entire mountain burning from wildfires and looked up-- AMAZING how much was visible where you don't have light pollution and so much air in the way... Where's my Eludium Pu-36 Explosive Space Detonator-- Houston's blocking my view of Venus... :roll:

Later! OL JR

 

[MarkII]

Cool.... little slice of heaven. If the words "NEW YORK" weren't attached to it in any way whatsoever (and if I weren't firmly rooted here) I'd be there in a second!

Yeah, a heaven with no jobs. I think that for many people, the lack of the amenities that I mentioned would render this place a living Hell.

Upstate NY is very different from the downstate NYC metro area. Two different worlds. It's hard to convey the contrast unless you've been here. And Northern NY is even more different. REALLY different.

 

[shreadvector]

Yeah, a heaven with no jobs. I think that for many people, the lack of the amenities that I mentioned would render this place a living Hell.

Upstate NY is very different from the downstate NYC metro area. Two different worlds. It's hard to convey the contrast unless you've been here. And Northern NY is even more different. REALLY different.

At least you don't have Bigfoot living there.....


(Mark Shaw, Newport VT aka "Bigfoot")