Covid Vaccines

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ksaves2

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I am not seeing enough evidence to suggest a booster yet, but it is coming.
I agree. Time will tell. If one wants to read about the last epidemic, I highly recommend John Barry's "The Great Influenza". Covers the influenza epidemic that killed millions. Still ranks more killed than the "puny" Covid-19. Plus gives the history of medical education in the U.S. and an account of medical research of the time. Laypeople will be able to understand it and one doesn't have to have a medical degree to read.

Also the research of Oswald Avery is talked about as he worked furiously (as did others) trying to figure out the influenza. In his later research, Oswald Avery first outlined DNA as the transforming principle, which essentially means that it’s DNA, not proteins, that transform cell properties. DNA had been discovered much earlier but at the time they didn't know the ramifications of it. The timeline is at this link:

https://www.lunadna.com/history-of-dna/

James Watson, Francis Crick, Maurice Wilkins, and Rosalind Franklin discovered the structure of DNA using X-ray diffraction as a means to determine the geometry of the molecule.

I remember in the mid-70's of a physics teacher in my small college trying to ressurect a donated x-ray diffraction machine
from the late 40's or 1950's. I was with him alone in the lab and he had lead bricks stacked all around the device. He'd pull a brick away and hold a radiation detector close to the gap. As he pulled it away, I was surprised the level dropped dramatically perpendicularly to the beam. It was just inches it dropped to near background radiation. He said that as long as one is not in the way of the direct beam source, the levels are pretty low. That was the best education I got in radiation safety I ever could of had.

Fast forward to when I was in medical residency in a trauma unit in the early 80's. When we needed x-rays, we took them ourselves. I know how to reload film cassettes as my father had a photo-mechanical reproduction business so I knew my way around a darkroom. It was all film back then. Now, (thank God) it's all digital. I still remember the smell from the film processing machines.

The gist of this is, is when we'd have to hold a wacked out trauma patient for x-rays, I knew most of the energy was going into the patient and not me. So yes I'd wear the heavy lead lined smock and if I had to have my hands near the field, the lead lined gloves.
I felt perfectly safe and yes, the lead lined smock had a flap that extended down to protect the "family jewels". Sorry for rambling.

Kurt Savegnago
 
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ThirstyBarbarian

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Get your vaccines, people. I just found out yesterday a beloved family member who is anti-vax is currently in the hospital with covid on oxygen and anti-viral meds.

Get the vaccine or get covid. It’s one or the other.
 

ksaves2

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Get your vaccines, people. I just found out yesterday a beloved family member who is anti-vax is currently in the hospital with covid on oxygen and anti-viral meds.

Get the vaccine or get covid. It’s one or the other.
More articles in the mainstream newspapers are really hammering this home. It's one of the cases where I think they are doing us a public service. Now to get the stupidhead anti-vaxers to change their minds. O.K., there are a very few out there who have had severe reactions to vaccine injections and they have my absolution to depend on herd immunity. I ran into very few of them in my 30 something year practice of primary care medicine but they were legit with very scary reactions to a vaccine injection.

On the other hand, one could consider the Darwin phenomena stepping in and wiping "STUPID" people off the face of the earth who refuse vaccination. Not that I want that to happen and would prefer that all get vaccinated.:clapping:

Kurt Savegnago
 

dr wogz

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Can I, as a non-American, ask a question:

How does this work in the US? For example: I'm a minimum wage person, in my early 20's and have no health insurance / benefits. And I happen to 'not believe'; so no vaccine either (which I assume is free of charge to any & all citizens) And I get Covid sick, requiring some ICU time..

Who pays? Does mom & dad get the bill? Is there a bill?
Do I get kicked out? As soon as I open my eyes?

I (we) always hear horror stories of those who don't have insurance, who are a tourist, etc.. and get stuck with thousands of dollars for some simple issues; break a legs, etc.. some freak accident or of no fault of our own..
 

NateB

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In the US, hospitals are obligated by law to treat, stabilize, and arrange for transport to an appropriate level of care for any emergency or OB visit regardless of insurance status, ability to pay, or citizenship status.

Most hospitals will provide care beyond what is mandated by the above law without proof of ability to pay. They will send you a bill and will take you to collections or court to get their money. Some work with people on payment arrangements better than others. When we bring someone in as a "Doe", the registration and social workers have to figure out who this person is. I'm sure they get billed eventually.
 

SecondRow

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Can I, as a non-American, ask a question:

How does this work in the US? For example: I'm a minimum wage person, in my early 20's and have no health insurance / benefits. And I happen to 'not believe'; so no vaccine either (which I assume is free of charge to any & all citizens) And I get Covid sick, requiring some ICU time..

Who pays? Does mom & dad get the bill? Is there a bill?
Do I get kicked out? As soon as I open my eyes?

I (we) always hear horror stories of those who don't have insurance, who are a tourist, etc.. and get stuck with thousands of dollars for some simple issues; break a legs, etc.. some freak accident or of no fault of our own..
Under the ACA, children can be on their parents' health care coverage until the age of 26. The bill doesn't go to mom and dad, it goes to the patient. In the US, parents aren't responsible for their adult childrens' financial obligations unless they agree to be. As NateB said, the hospital has to provide treatment. If the patient can't pay, well, the hospitals will do what they can to collect. In addition to that, hospitals have a number of other payment streams to make themselves whole: state, federal and local uninsured funds; contracts with insurers, etc.

But the answer to your specific question is this: As part of the CARES Act, COVID-19 diagnoses and treatment for the uninsured are fully covered under a special program. https://www.hrsa.gov/CovidUninsuredClaim
 

ThirstyBarbarian

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My relative who is currently in the hospital for covid is also, apparently, uninsured. Great. So I’m sure we will soon find out exactly what happens in that scenario. Most likely it will result in a bill he has absolutely no hope of being able to pay. Maybe it will be resolved through negotiations, or maybe it will result in a personal bankruptcy. We will see.
 

cwbullet

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Under the ACA, children can be on their parents' health care coverage until the age of 26. The bill doesn't go to mom and dad, it goes to the patient. In the US, parents aren't responsible for their adult childrens' financial obligations unless they agree to be. As NateB said, the hospital has to provide treatment. If the patient can't pay, well, the hospitals will do what they can to collect. In addition to that, hospitals have a number of other payment streams to make themselves whole: state, federal and local uninsured funds; contracts with insurers, etc.

But the answer to your specific question is this: As part of the CARES Act, COVID-19 diagnoses and treatment for the uninsured are fully covered under a special program. https://www.hrsa.gov/CovidUninsuredClaim
But some of us sure feel responsible.
 

cwbullet

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In the US, hospitals are obligated by law to treat, stabilize, and arrange for transport to an appropriate level of care for any emergency or OB visit regardless of insurance status, ability to pay, or citizenship status.

Most hospitals will provide care beyond what is mandated by the above law without proof of ability to pay. They will send you a bill and will take you to collections or court to get their money. Some work with people on payment arrangements better than others. When we bring someone in as a "Doe", the registration and social workers have to figure out who this person is. I'm sure they get billed eventually.
I think you need to add a category of assessment:

"In the US, hospitals are obligated by law to triage (when appropriate), treat, stabilize, and arrange for transport to an appropriate level of care for any emergency or OB visit regardless of insurance status, ability to pay, or citizenship status."

We get stuck on the "treat". Most covid cases do not require treatment so triage and referring to their PCM or another cheaper clinical care is appropriate. Far too many Americans are using the easy button for care and going to the ER for primary care issues. The ER should be for EMERGENCIES!
 

cwbullet

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My relative who is currently in the hospital for covid is also, apparently, uninsured. Great. So I’m sure we will soon find out exactly what happens in that scenario. Most likely it will result in a bill he has absolutely no hope of being able to pay. Maybe it will be resolved through negotiations, or maybe it will result in a personal bankruptcy. We will see.
Good or bad, the ACA has removed a lot of personal responsibility from our culture but yet still some have intentionally or unintentionally slipped through the cracks. I hope your relative is ok.
 

SecondRow

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My relative who is currently in the hospital for covid is also, apparently, uninsured. Great. So I’m sure we will soon find out exactly what happens in that scenario. Most likely it will result in a bill he has absolutely no hope of being able to pay. Maybe it will be resolved through negotiations, or maybe it will result in a personal bankruptcy. We will see.
Make sure your relative knows about the available funds (i.e. the state’s uninsured or indigent fund and the federal COVID uninsured fund). For multiple reasons, hospitals don’t always tell the patient about them. https://www.npr.org/sections/health...19-patients-are-covered-but-no-one-tells-them
 

ThirstyBarbarian

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Make sure your relative knows about the available funds (i.e. the state’s uninsured or indigent fund and the federal COVID uninsured fund). For multiple reasons, hospitals don’t always tell the patient about them. https://www.npr.org/sections/health...19-patients-are-covered-but-no-one-tells-them
That is great information to have. Thank you for posting it! I know that his immediate family has been extremely worried about the cost and are definitely not aware of this program.
 

BABAR

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Can I, as a non-American, ask a question:

How does this work in the US? For example: I'm a minimum wage person, in my early 20's and have no health insurance / benefits. And I happen to 'not believe'; so no vaccine either (which I assume is free of charge to any & all citizens) And I get Covid sick, requiring some ICU time..

Who pays? Does mom & dad get the bill? Is there a bill?
Do I get kicked out? As soon as I open my eyes?

I (we) always hear horror stories of those who don't have insurance, who are a tourist, etc.. and get stuck with thousands of dollars for some simple issues; break a legs, etc.. some freak accident or of no fault of our own..
Most employers in U.S. with greater than 50 employees offer health insurance
Source

“No law directly requires employers to provide health care coverage to their employees. However, the Affordable Care Act imposes penalties on larger employers that fail to provide health insurance.

Under the ACA, employers with 50 or more full-time employees (or the equivalent in part-time employees) must provide health insurance to 95% of their full-time employees or pay a penalty to the IRS. This penalty is quite hefty—$3,860 per employee per year (in 2020). As a result, large employers have a strong incentive to provide health coverage. However, employees have no right to demand health care under the ACA.”

those patients who work for smaller companies or the unemployed may have no insurance. They will get whatever emergency care, including admission and icu care if required. after discharge they will get a whopping bill, which they will be unable to pay and therefore will not pay. Maybe they have relatives or can get it paid through “go fund me.” Otherwise they will probably end up with bill collectors that will try to squeeze some money out of them, wages garnished, destroyed credit rating. Since their income is so low, it is unlikely that they will have a house to lose. I don’t think the bill collectors can go after the patients parents or kids, they can likely go after the spouse.

in most cases the healthcare facilities and transport companies like @NateB end up eating most of the costs. To stay above water, however, they end up passing on the cost at least partway by charging insured (aka “paying”) customers more. As Robert Heinlein said, TANSTAAFL, “There ain’t no such thing as a free lunch.”


from cdc as of 2019




“Percent of persons under age 65 uninsured at the time of interview: 12.1%”

not sure of this number how many CHOOSE to be uninsured (self employed or work for company under 50 employees and decided didn’t want to pay the premiums) versus unemployed or non-full time workers. Understand that under Affordable Care Act, there are government subsidies which for low income citizens cover a big chunk of the cost. Eliminating the “no pre-existing conditions” fees (which basically made trying to get insurance with a diagnosis of cancer, diabetes, sickle cell anemia, or other chronic condition previously a nonstarter) was huge in opening up insurance to the masses. Predictably it made costs of insurance to everyone else a bit higher. The fact that some of this cost is picked up by the government is sort of a bait and switch, since most Americans still don’t understand that when “the government” picks up the tab the citizens are still paying for it, since “the government” HAS no money except what it takes from citizens and redistributes as the politicians see fit.

pretty much all kids are covered somehow, for adults over 87% are covered. 12% of adults between 18 and Medicare age is still not at all a negligible number, over 32 million people again per CDC.

still, while I feel that people are entitled to free choice and even though IMO it is a poor choice NOT to get vaccinated, it is a REALLY poor choice (again IMO) if you have no insurance AND choose to forgo a free vaccination.

as sad as it is that people will get sick and die because they chose not to get vaccinated, not to worry. It will not significantly reduce the population of stupid people. We will always be blessed with them.
 
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tab28682

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… as sad as it is that people will get sick and die because they chose not to get vaccinated, not to worry. It will not significantly reduce the population of stupid people. We will always be blessed with them.
Very true. With every year that goes by, we are getting closer and closer the world predicted by the movie “Idiocracy”.

Currently, it feels like we are accelerating along that path.
 

ksaves2

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Can I, as a non-American, ask a question:

How does this work in the US? For example: I'm a minimum wage person, in my early 20's and have no health insurance / benefits. And I happen to 'not believe'; so no vaccine either (which I assume is free of charge to any & all citizens) And I get Covid sick, requiring some ICU time..

Who pays? Does mom & dad get the bill? Is there a bill?
Do I get kicked out? As soon as I open my eyes?

I (we) always hear horror stories of those who don't have insurance, who are a tourist, etc.. and get stuck with thousands of dollars for some simple issues; break a legs, etc.. some freak accident or of no fault of our own..
Land of Poutine! That is a dish from Quebec, Canada. Sounds yummy (really no sarcasm intended) if you ask me, if you're in Canada, I thought they have socialized medicine so you'd be supposedly in an "o.k." position as far as medical care is concerned. The borders between Canada and the U.S. were closed until recently so I don't know how things would go if a Canadian came to the U.S. and then got Covid while in country.
Why the hell would you want to come here anyways outside of a rocket launch!:)

If you don't "believe" in a vaccine, then you're rolling the dice. There are articles out now from intensive care unit physicians that report the severely Covid ill patients say, "THEY WISHED THEY WOUD HAVE RECEIVED THE VACCINE!!!" (In cases that occurred after the vaccine was available and the patients declined to get it.)

It's a crapshoot and I have only one thing to say, "Do you feel lucky punk?" (from Dirty Harry)

Seriously, if you're in Canada and in an isolated area I'd say you're probably safe. If in one of the big cities (up there ;)) and work with the public in your job/vocation, you're respectfully an idiot not to get vaccinated. Sorry to be the bearer of bad news.
You get it and die, I told you so. Vaccine reactions are relatively rare but indeed sometimes occur. If your parents had you vaccinated against the usual childhood diseases, you'd probably tolerate the Covid-19 vaccine without dying.

Kurt Savegnago, M.D. (retired)
 

Marc_G

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New report --not yet peer reviewed-- suggests significantly lower protection against Delta from single dose J&J:

The New York Times: J.&J. Vaccine May Be Less Effective Against Delta, Study Suggests.

I don't subscribe to NYT but was able to get this article without a paywall problem
 

OverTheTop

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Phoned a friend of mine last night and unfortunately he is in the mostly anti-vax area. Seems convinced the treatments by HCQ and other meds are being downplayed. Even has a friend who works at the CDC that is discussing those treatments as effective with him :(. I told him to watch out for conspiracy theories and to question what he is reading thoroughly. Hope he stays safe. There is one vaccine he will line up and get, made the old traditional way, but won't have anything to do with the mRNA or AstraZeneca vaccines. He will be waiting quite a while here in Oz for his choice of vaccine.
 

OverTheTop

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Just managed to get an appointment for my vaccine on 12th August instead of the 21st. Worth moving forward I think. Delta is trying to get going over here. We have 14 cases today in our state, but NSW had 122 cases today. I think they have had about 6 deaths in this wave so far. They really need to get it under control or this whole country will be in trouble. Delta is proving to be a different animal compared to the earlier strains.
 

MidOH

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Get your vaccines, people. I just found out yesterday a beloved family member who is anti-vax is currently in the hospital with covid on oxygen and anti-viral meds.

Get the vaccine or get covid. It’s one or the other.
Tell that to my fully vaxx'd brother in law. He's in the hospital as well.

I'm waiting for FDA approval. And to see the results of the new lawsuit. I've been on the front line since 2019 and I'm doing fine.
 

CalebJ

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Tell that to my fully vaxx'd brother in law. He's in the hospital as well.

I'm waiting for FDA approval. And to see the results of the new lawsuit. I've been on the front line since 2019 and I'm doing fine.
What lawsuit are you referring to?

And congratulations on succeeding on the 'front line' despite your choices.
 

kuririn

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US Surgeon General spoke out a few days ago about the dangers of misinformation:
Reaction from some politicians was condemnation for his call for "censorship" of social media.
An analogy.
If a kid posts on You Tube on how to make your own rocket motor by packing black powder into a lead pipe, does YT have the right to remove that post?
Damn straight.
Might save some kids from blowing off their fingers, or worse.
Same with Covid mis (dis) information.
Removing demonstrably false information might save lives.
The irony here is that the SG rebukes social media for not doing enough to remove misinformation, while the politicians are condemning the SG for "collaborating" with social media to censor posts.
Sheesh.
 

MidOH

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If everyone else on the team is vac'd , what are they afraid of?

He's no more dangerous than the Japanese public and every form of transportation over there.
 

kuririn

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If everyone else on the team is vac'd , what are they afraid of?

He's no more dangerous than the Japanese public and every form of transportation over there.
If you get a positive Covid test, you go home. End of your Olympics dream.
You can be vaxxed and still get infected.
Vaxxing prevents serious complications from the disease, not infection.
The Japanese public will not be at the venues. All spectators are barred from the events.
I'm pretty sure athletes will not be taking public transportation.
The Olympics Village is supposed to be a Covid free bubble, athletes are periodically tested before and during their stay there. Already several athletes have tested positive and will not be competing, including an American volleyball player and an American womens gymnastics alternate.
 
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kuririn

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BTW my state is offering a vaccine incentive program to get more people vaxxed.
Register and you can win prizes including cash, gift cards, hotel and travel packages, various merchandise.
Any other states doing this?
 
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