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Nytrunner

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first mRNA vaccine/biological ever approved for general public distribution,
Very true, but the experimental vaccine type has been used in previous studies (cancer, other viruses) that can offer long term effect data. This isnt something cooked up overnight last year, but there seems to be a public impression that way
 

Ez2cDave

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Very true, but the experimental vaccine type has been used in previous studies (cancer, other viruses) that can offer long term effect data. This isnt something cooked up overnight last year, but there seems to be a public impression that way
Most of it stems from people not trusting the sources of information they are being given.

This is compounded by the alleged "facts" constantly being "in flux" and, at times, contradictory from "official sources", like the CDC. A prime example is Dr. Fauci, who is like a "sailboat without a centerboard" ( i.e. - Masks work . . . Masks don't work . . . Masks may work . . . You should wear multiple masks . . . Even after you have been vaccinated, you still have to wear a mask, etc. ) . . . That constant "wobbling" creates the impression that things are being stated, only to fit a given situation, rather than being hard, scientific facts.

People do not trust the speed with which the vaccine(s) were developed, compared to all previous vaccines, coupled with the lack of long-range testing and "challenge testing", where vaccinated test subjects are directly infected with the full-strength virus to judge the effectiveness of the vaccine(s). They fear long-term, as yet unknown, side-effects ( birth defects, cancers, auto-immune disorders, genetic mutations, etc. ).

In some cases, they suspect that vaccine manufacturers are more concerned with profits, than safety. They cite the inability of people harmed by a vaccine from being able to sue the manufacturer(s), since they all demanded "immunity from litigation", before becoming involved. That certainly raises suspicions, as to vaccine safety.

Dave F.
 
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SharkWhisperer

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Very true, but the experimental vaccine type has been used in previous studies (cancer, other viruses) that can offer long term effect data. This isnt something cooked up overnight last year, but there seems to be a public impression that way
It's likely that at least two of the reasons for Pfizer/Moderna's rapid mRNA vaccine development are because 1) the original 2003 SARS virus outbreak (I won't even gift it with "epidemic" status) holds great similarity in its genetic sequence (particularly the infamous "spike" proteins) as Covid-19, and that 2) mRNA vaccine development against beta-coronaviruses likely began back then with the original SARS but got waylaid when the epidemic never turned pandemic (and a vaccine would not have been profitable). An easy-reading but non-comprehensive comparison of the two bug is discussed at: https://www.news-medical.net/health/How-Does-the-SARS-Virus-Genome-Compare-to-Other-Viruses.aspx . The detailed scientific evidence that supports this article and others, if anybody is interested, is also freely available.
 

modeltrains

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Unfortunately there are bad apples in every job category, including healthcare workers.
There could be rather more to the thing, even something else entirely, than being a healthcare worker who is a bad apple,
The facility hadn’t yet received its shipment of vaccines, but Danielle, who called herself a “usually pro-vaccine person,” told me that she and most of her co-workers weren’t planning to get the shot. Scientists agree that the vaccines are safe and well worth the risk, but it’s easy to understand Danielle’s mistrust. After all the death she’s witnessed, she doesn’t believe that pharmaceutical companies or the government or her bosses have suddenly come to value caregivers’ lives.
 

cwbullet

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It's not just the USA. In Tanzania last week or the one before, their president said that vaccines were useless and the cure was hard labor and to inhale steam while praying. In Iran, the clerics (vaccinated no doubt) publicly stated last week that vaccines caused homosexuality. And waaaay back in 2006, shortly after I worked a bit at the Cape Heart Center at Groote Schuur Hospital in Capetown (first heart transplant there--Barnard in late '60s), then Health Minister advised treating HIV with "lemon, beetroot, and garlic".

Yes, it's new, and the first mRNA vaccine/biological ever approved for general public distribution, so caution is not unreasonable. But new safety and efficacy data roll in daily, for the Pfizer, Moderna, Astra-Zenica/Oxford, and many other candidate vaccines and treatments undergoing trials, with a longer follow-up periods naturally accumulating over time.
mRNA vaccines have been used on 10% of the US population with less than 100 serious adverse outcomes. Most of those are allergic in nature. The technology will soon be used to treat cancers. You will soon be able to defeat your own cancer cells with toxic chemo agents. The skepticism has grown into hysteria.
 

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A friend's sister died in the hospital due to gross incompetence (they received a multimillion dollar settlement), and a coworked had an uncle who had a hospital stay where a known Covid patient was wheeled into his room. He ended up contracting Covid and died. So let's not pretend that everyone in health care actually knows what they are doing.
 

FMarvinS

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I agree with Chuck. The advent of mRNA vaccines may herald effective therapy in multiple medical subspecialties including oncology, infectious diseases, autoimmunity, and genetic disorders. At this point in time, the use of molecular engineered therapies (e.g. introduction of corrected nucleic acid sequences) in genetic disorders goes back to the 1980s, particularly in specific immunodeficiency disorders. So this therapeutic route in general is not novel. As Chuck pointed out, a small percentage have allergic reactions. However, the same is true for the Flu shot, tetanus, and DPT vaccines, but this is just not well promulgated.
With regards to Ryan's post, it is unfortunate that significant medical errors occur that effect morbidity and mortality. This in part may occur due to the lack of training and power of non-medical professional individuals concerned only about cost efficiency. The latter point unfortunately is characteristic of Cuomo's sending COVID positive patients back to nursing homes in N.Y. in order to "open bed space" at hospitals. That is a byproduct of a system in which bean counters (with no medical knowledge or training) run the medical system. Look at the great job that politicians are doing with school closures in an environment where COVID transmission rates in public schools are extremely low!
Fred
 

Ez2cDave

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There is a lot of confusion and mixed messages out there.

Dave
 
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Bill S

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My wife is a retail pharmacist, and as expected, its been a goat-rodeo trying to get vaccine and people injected.

They are getting the Moderna vaccine and they are stuck with the usual pharmacy refrigeration, so it only has a 30-day storage span. Either the company can't get better freezers, or doesn't want to spend the $, not sure. But there are some catches:
1) They are only getting it in 10-dose vials, and once they start to use the vial it has to be used within 6 hours and then thrown away. There's probably going to be wastage, though its early to say.
2) They are using an online sign up in 15 minute appointments, and they are trying to only schedule it when they have 2 pharmacist coverage overlapped (more on that later), so it gets kind of hairy.
3) Managment is forcing them to use up all available vaccine on 1st injection appointments, rather than reserve half of it for the 2nd dose, but they don't know when they will get ANY more vaccine to admister for the 2nd doses, some of which are coming up pretty soon. Meanwhile some of the other stores in the same chain haven't received any vaccine at all.
4) The waiting list is over 300 people, and they had to cut it off, and if someone doesn't show up for their appt then they call the next person on the wait list and see if they can get in there very soon to get their shot.
5) Because they have had some technicians either get Covid or are under quarantine, they are down to less than half of the usual tech coverage, resulting in the the pharmacists coming in early/staying late and coming in on their days off to fill in as techs and provide overlapping pharmacist coverage so one can just concentrate on the Covid injections. No pay, mind you, because they are "salary" despite the fact that the company tracks hours and pays by the hour. Possibly, just maybe the store manager can get them compensated somehow, either time off, or tech pay (about 1/6th of their normal pay). The pharmacists, already greatly overworked, are rapidly approaching total burnout.
 

NateB

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1. It comes in 10 dose vials.

2. It seems reasonable to schedule appointments like that and allow 1 pharmacist to be available for all of the other fills that need to be done. Why not train the techs to give the IM shot or why not hire someone else to do it? ($$ most likely...) Indiana has allowed basic EMTs to be trained to give IM shots to help mass vaccines in the past and also for this pandemic. One ambulance service in Indianapolis is hiring EMTs and other people with basic medical training, training them for vaccine administration, and deploying them in pharmacies and other sites to help out. Does your state offer allowances like this or is the company only trying to avoid paying extra people.

3. Given their inability to store the vaccine more than 30 days, they should definitely use what they have first. Is the supply line stable enough to ensure people get the 2nd dose after 4 weeks?

4. 300 people doesn't sound like much to me. Is that for each store? Is that all the vaccine doses they can get?

5. That is unfortunate and will only lead people to refusing. I'm fortunate that when I get called into fill in for an EMT, I get my normal wages. On overtime, it is about 3x what they make. Sometimes we even get overtime + $10 to make sure shifts are filled.
 

SharkWhisperer

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A friend's sister died in the hospital due to gross incompetence (they received a multimillion dollar settlement), and a coworked had an uncle who had a hospital stay where a known Covid patient was wheeled into his room. He ended up contracting Covid and died. So let's not pretend that everyone in health care actually knows what they are doing.
Though this reference is already 5 years old, there are many others with updated figures available. In short, this team from Johns Hopkins calculated that hospital/medical/pharma mistakes/bad practices cause 250,000 deaths/year, which would make it the third biggest killer after heart disease and cancer. The hospital is a fine place to get sick or poor treatment with consequences, sometimes fatal. It's relatively straightforward reading--nothing too too technical, but ominous. And written by a respected team from one of our top teaching universities. While it predates Covid, it doesn't take much imagination to expect magnification of this effect by Covid, overworked and stressed heathcare workers, and growing public apathy: https://www.hopkinsmedicine.org/new...rs_now_third_leading_cause_of_death_in_the_us
 

SharkWhisperer

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I agree with Chuck. The advent of mRNA vaccines may herald effective therapy in multiple medical subspecialties including oncology, infectious diseases, autoimmunity, and genetic disorders. At this point in time, the use of molecular engineered therapies (e.g. introduction of corrected nucleic acid sequences) in genetic disorders goes back to the 1980s, particularly in specific immunodeficiency disorders. So this therapeutic route in general is not novel.
Fred
Agree about the utility for using RNA vaccines or interfering siRNAs, and DNA editing (e.g., Crispr technology) and their vast potential for new therapeutics, but there are essential distinctions within this category, and various nucleic acid treatment approaches have very little mechanistic overlap in how they act. This can easily be confusing to non-medical/non-molecular biologists/non-immunologists who just hear "RNA" and "DNA". Related molecules--vastly different applications and approaches. But the foundation nevertheless of some exciting new treatments being developed in our aims for advancing "personalized/individualized" medical treatment.
 

SharkWhisperer

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My wife is a retail pharmacist, and as expected, its been a goat-rodeo trying to get vaccine and people injected.

They are getting the Moderna vaccine and they are stuck with the usual pharmacy refrigeration, so it only has a 30-day storage span. Either the company can't get better freezers, or doesn't want to spend the $, not sure. But there are some catches:
1) They are only getting it in 10-dose vials, and once they start to use the vial it has to be used within 6 hours and then thrown away.
This really nicks me. While mRNA inherantly has only a fraction of the chemical stability as DNA under any given environmental conditions, the effectiveness of thawed vaccine does not magically disappear after 6 hours. This is simply the longest stability study that they performed, and wrongly though sufficient, to get approval. Here's the kicker: Longer stability studies have probably already been performed, and those results have not yet (and may not anytime soon) be released. The magic 6h expiration is a gift to the biotech companies--every discarded dose needs to be replaced and paid for (no such thing as "free" vaccines--your tax dollars are funding everything from development, testing (super expensive), to distribution. Some unbiased third party should analyze the efficacy of "older than 6h thawed vaccine" to ascertain true activity loss, because biotech manufacturers have no incentive--longer stability=less profit, the primary motivator of every company, whether biotech, health insurance, or hospitals. These companies do not have an altruistic bone in their body, though front-line doctors and nurses etc usually do. Personally, if I were offered a jab of Pfizer that sat in the refrigerator for 60, not 6, hours, I would happily accept it and would expect it to retain the bulk of its intended bioactivity. It's not like Cinderella's coach after 6 hrs, magically turning into a pumpkin (useless vaccine). Full effect at 5'59" and worthless at 6'01"? Thats simply not how mRNA degradation occurs.
 

aerostadt

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I just got my second vaccination shot (Pfizer). I had no qualms about getting it. So far, there has been no reactions. I am in the 70+ category. I would say that currently the number of positive cases plus first vaccinations in our state is about 1/3 of the population. The number of first vaccinations now exceeds the number of positive cases.
 

Bill S

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Nate,

#2, as far as I know, PA doesn't allow pharmacy technicians to adminster vaccinations. Company absolutely will not bring in outside nurses/people to give vaccinations.

#3, supply is very shaky, nobody knows if or when vaccine for 2nd doses will become available.

#4, 300 people on wait list for her store alone. Nobody knows when more vaccine will become available.

#5, refusers will be fired, tough cookies, unfortunately.
 

kuririn

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A certain nationwide pharmacy chain will start offering the Moderna vaccine tomorrow in my area.
Online scheduler went live today.
Tried to schedule an appointment for my father but the online scheduler crashed.
#@$%&^*
 

Flyfalcons

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My father in law got Moderna stab #1 at a local grocery store/pharmacy today. Super easy, though they could only handle one vaccination per 15 minutes so not exactly mass-vaccination numbers here.
 

Bill S

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My father in law got Moderna stab #1 at a local grocery store/pharmacy today. Super easy, though they could only handle one vaccination per 15 minutes so not exactly mass-vaccination numbers here.
The wife says that the paperwork the .gov requires for the vaccine injections is pretty massive, and very time consuming. She gave 10 shots today, spent an extra hour on her time just doing the paperwork that she didn't get done earlier in the day.

Its a mess.
 

cwbullet

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The wife says that the paperwork the .gov requires for the vaccine injections is pretty massive, and very time consuming. She gave 10 shots today, spent an extra hour on her time just doing the paperwork that she didn't get done earlier in the day.

Its a mess.
It is not that much. We only need 1 front page form of documentation.
 

Bowman

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My father in law got Moderna stab #1 at a local grocery store/pharmacy today. Super easy, though they could only handle one vaccination per 15 minutes so not exactly mass-vaccination numbers here.
Maybe with a little more time they can eliminate or reduce that observation period.
The stats on adverse reaction should be close to statistically significant by now.
From what I have heard the reactions that do occur do so several hours post, like the next day.
Has anyone heard of many AE in the 15 minute window?
 

NateB

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Has anyone heard of many AE in the 15 minute window?
I have heard of 1 serious allergic reaction shortly after vaccine administration. There could have been more at our site, but I heard about the 1.
 

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Vaccine based allergic reactions typically occur within 30 minutes of administration. For example those on allergy shots are requested to be under observation for 30 minutes post-injection and to carry Epipens in the event of anaphylaxis. The adverse events that occur the day after the administration of a COVID vaccine are mostly mild (non-allergic) reactions characterized by mild fever, fatigue, sore arm, and headaches.These usually resolve within 24 hours after initiation.

Fred
 

FMarvinS

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Fred,

All of those things combine to add to the general mistrust of the vaccine(s) and those who are endorsing / pushing them. People simply do not trust what they are being told and / or those who are telling them.

Dave
Dave,

Our best shot at minimizing spread of SARS-CoV-2 is via herd immunity which is estimated to occur after 70 plus% of the population have protective levels of anti-COVID IgG neutralizing antibodies. Hopefully, distrust will diminish otherwise without a robust participation in vaccine programs, this virus will persist with new, possibly difficult to treat, variants arising frequently.
 

Bill S

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It is not that much. We only need 1 front page form of documentation.
Talked to the pharmacist wife, here is the what she has to do for EVERY Covid vaccination she does:
1) Go to the Moderna website and register lot# and exp date for the vial (for some reason they aren't allowed to this once for each vial ahead of time)

2) Go to the scheduler website and do some stuff

3) have patient fill out 3 page consent form, then give shot.

4) Go to the PA state website and enter info so the vaccination can be subtracted from some database.

5) Go to PMAP website and log patient demographics (race, age, sex, which arm it was given, other stuff)

6) Go back to the scheduler website and schedule a second vaccination dose despite the fact that they have no vaccinations for second doses yet.

Clean up and get ready for the next patient.

All this while trying to fill 150-200rx a day with less than 50% of normal tech staff, doing flu shots AND non-flu shots (they have quotas they have to meet or be disciplined), deal with 4 phone lines ringing, patients queued up 4-6 deep, nitwits asking when X grocery item is going to be restocked, on hold with the insurance company for some issue, patients show up with GoodRx coupons having her test bill their scripts to see if they can save any money. Then there is the stupid HR crap like learning modules you've done every year since you've been with the company all so HR can check off some box on a list, half a dozen reports on some meaningless metrics you can be fired for not performing on, back-check previous days rxs, then look over scripts in the queue for another store (load balancing). And you don't get a meal break, maybe you get to pee once a day.

Its a miracle some pharmacist hasn't gone postal and shot up corporate yet.
 

boatgeek

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Is dizziness/vertigo a known side effect of the vaccine? My mother in law had some of that a day or two after the second shot, but we don't know if it's related or not.
 

hobie1dog

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After my last post on a vaccine/ Covid thread was removed , I made it my New Year's resolution to not post anything related to those two subjects for the rest of the year ......feels good
 

Ez2cDave

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Talked to the pharmacist wife, here is the what she has to do for EVERY Covid vaccination she does:

4) Go to the PA state website and enter info so the vaccination can be subtracted from some database.

5) Go to PMAP website and log patient demographics (race, age, sex, which arm it was given, other stuff)
Bill, I have two questions . . .

(1) Is that PA state database a list of people from which there name is removed or a notation made, following vaccination ?

(2) What difference does it make which arm was injected ?

Thanks,

Dave F.
 

SharkWhisperer

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Is dizziness/vertigo a known side effect of the vaccine? My mother in law had some of that a day or two after the second shot, but we don't know if it's related or not.
Yes, it is possible but rare. See the CDC basic advisory at https://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/videos/coronavirus/expect-after-getting-COVID-19-vaccine-transcript.pdf . With Moderna, they evaluated various systemic (non-localized) side effects (headache, fatigue, fever, muscle pain, nausea, etc.) but not dizziness/vertigo as a separate category (it would have fallen under "other neurological side effects". I'd have to pull and review the Pfizer original data, but probably a similar evaluation protocol.

Dizziness/fatigue is probably more common as a symptom of actual covid infection. That said, most of the vaccine side effects would be all of the flu-like symptoms associated with covid infection, but less severe--that lets you know the vaccine's performing as desired and your body is reacting to it and building immunity.

Anyways, if dizziness was transient, only lasted a day or two, and spells didn't worsen in severity or duration, I wouldn't be worried at all if it were me (or my girlfriend), and would continue life as usual.

Plus, there are many, many other causes of dizziness entirely unrelated to covid and maybe vaccine, so it may have just been coincidental.
 

Bowman

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Is dizziness/vertigo a known side effect of the vaccine? My mother in law had some of that a day or two after the second shot, but we don't know if it's related or not.
Likely related.
My wife and others at her hospital had the same reaction after 2nd dose.

I mis-reported; The Vertigo was ~18 hrs after the first dose, ~18hrs after second dose she and others experienced bad chills.

They received Pfizer.
 
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