Coronavirus: What questions do you have?

[Marc_G]

While government mandates may not be practical for the COVID-19 vaccine, I fully expect public schools to mandate it by some point, and many work places may also do so prior to allowing workers to show up for work. I imagine all this would be phased in, as the vaccine works its way through high-priority folks down to the regular peons like me.

 

[cwbullet]

Our ER was studying Bamlanivimab which was recently given an EUA for people recently diagnosed with Covid in hopes of keeping them out of the hospital. Regeneron's antibody treatment was also granted an EUA. Is there any reason why patients who have received these treatments couldn't get the vaccine when it is available?

As is ours. That is one of the many drugs our hospital was granted the ability to utilIze in an experimental nature.

Our today, the CDC is putting out that most infections are passed by asymptomatic spreaders.

https://www.cnn.com/2020/11/20/heal...read-asymptomatic-website-wellness/index.html
The best advice I can give folks is wear a mask, travel less, and socially distance.

Although most infections are from asymptomatic spreaders, that does not mean that symptomatic folks should go out because they are less Infective. This is little to no indication that symptomatic folks are less infective. I would guess they are more or even equally infective. Stay home and don’t share this virus. The holidays are a sharing time, but don’t share this virus.

 

[Peartree]

While government mandates may not be practical for the COVID-19 vaccine, I fully expect public schools to mandate it by some point, and many work places may also do so prior to allowing workers to show up for work. I imagine all this would be phased in, as the vaccine works its way through high-priority folks down to the regular peons like me.

Shoot, I've wondered, once the vaccine is widely available, if strongly recommending it wouldn't be prudent before returning to in-person worship services for church.

 

[cwbullet]

Shoot, I've wondered, once the vaccine is widely available, if strongly recommending it wouldn't be prudent before returning to in-person worship services for church.

I agree. I think both schools and maybe churches may require it.

 

[cwbullet]

As is ours. That is one of the many drugs our hospital was granted the ability to utilIze in an experimental nature.

Our today, the CDC is putting out that most infections are passed by asymptomatic spreaders.

https://www.cnn.com/2020/11/20/heal...read-asymptomatic-website-wellness/index.html
The best advice I can give folks is wear a mask, travel less, and socially distance.

Although most infections are from asymptomatic spreaders, that does not mean that symptomatic folks should go out because they are less Infective. This is little to no indication that symptomatic folks are less infective. I would guess they are more or even equally infective. Stay home and don’t share this virus. The holidays are a sharing time, but don’t share this virus.

I just reread that article. It nto nearly as dramatic as CNN portrayed. 41% of people who infect others have symptoms when they infect others. 59% are either Pre-symptomatic (35%) or asymptomatic (24%). That means that 24% are true asymptomatic spreaders that never develop symptoms. That is not what has been put out before. I have seen numbers in the 90% Which was blatantly false if this new data is correct. We are learning every day.

 

[Marc_G]

Shoot, I've wondered, once the vaccine is widely available, if strongly recommending it wouldn't be prudent before returning to in-person worship services for church.

I'm more comfortable with asking people to do the right thing, rather than mandating it. I do worry that a fair number of people will choose not to comply.

 

[afadeev]

I think both schools and maybe churches may require it.

I recall that some religious denominations were the hotbed of antivaxing sentiment, though I can't remember which ones, and why.
Is anyone familiar with the religious argument that underpins that sentiment for some? Motivations behind it?
Not picking on anyone in particular, just trying to understand and educated myself for future conversations.

I'm more comfortable with asking people to do the right thing, rather than mandating it. I do worry that a fair number of people will choose not to comply.

I'm not too worried that initial demand for the Covid-19 vaccine will outstrip supply. For month to come.
But, at some point, the organic demand will get exhausted, then what?

I would like to day-dream that education and peer-pressure campaigns will close the gap to near-total compliance, but that's now how human societies work. Even self-serving and socially beneficial behaviors (not stealing, murdering, drunk driving, etc.) require some form of policing to ensure ongoing compliance. Education and social pressure can only take us so far.
I don't see why vaccination would be any different.

Which is where my interest in religious exemptions comes in.
We, as a society, don't accept religious beliefs as a legitimate excuse for drunk driving or murder. How has it become "a thing" to accept it for refusing to vaccinate, and then infect others with measles (major outbreak in 2019), and soon to be Covid-19 ?

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6657116/

 

[Peartree]

I just reread that article. It nto nearly as dramatic as CNN portrayed. 41% of people who infect others have symptoms when they infect others. 59% are either Pre-symptomatic (35%) or asymptomatic (24%). That means that 24% are true asymptomatic spreaders that never develop symptoms. That is not what has been put out before. I have seen numbers in the 90% Which was blatantly false if this new data is correct. We are learning every day.

Yeah, but remember that we went 'round and 'round on this subject before (a few months back) and, in the end, you need to remember that YOU are a clinician and both understand, and use, the words "pre-symptomatic" and "asymptomatic" differently. But, to most of us laypersons, these two words mean exactly the same thing. Both words refer to someone who carries the virus but has not *yet* exhibited symptoms. That means, to me, that 59% of people infected with the virus COULD be carrying, transmitting, and infecting others with the virus before they exhibit symptoms. I understand that *clinically* there is a difference, but if you want the average schmuck on the street to understand that they can be infectious BEFORE they have symptoms, you have to say it exactly the way that CNN said it. To do otherwise would cause the anti-maskers to do exactly what they did months ago, to misunderstand the press release and jump on the news that asymptomatic persons were thought not to transmit the virus when that wasn't what the news had said at all. In a clinical sense, yes, they lost an important nuance, but for public consumption that nuance only causes people to misunderstand so removing it is probably a good thing.

 

[Peartree]

I recall that some religious denominations were the hotbed of antivaxing sentiment, though I can't remember which ones, and why.
Is anyone familiar with the religious argument that underpins that sentiment for some? Motivations behind it?
Not picking on anyone in particular, just trying to understand and educated myself for future conversations.



I'm not too worried that initial demand for the Covid-19 vaccine will outstrip supply. For month to come.
But, at some point, the organic demand will get exhausted, then what?

I would like to day-dream that education and peer-pressure campaigns will close the gap to near-total compliance, but that's now how human societies work. Even self-serving and socially beneficial behaviors (not stealing, murdering, drunk driving, etc.) require some form of policing to ensure ongoing compliance. Education and social pressure can only take us so far.
I don't see why vaccination would be any different.

Which is where my interest in religious exemptions comes in.
We, as a society, don't accept religious beliefs as a legitimate excuse for drunk driving or murder. How has it become "a thing" to accept it for refusing to vaccinate, and then infect others with measles (major outbreak in 2019), and soon to be Covid-19 ?

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6657116/

I have a Master's degree in Divinity and I have no idea how scripture could be twisted to support the anti-vax movement or to oppose Covid-19 vaccination. The only religious people I know who are opposing vaccination are doing so on the assumption/conspiracy theory that nefarious agents/agencies are using the distribution and injection of the vaccine to inject a "tracking chip" which will become the "mark of the beast." Obviously, this line of thinking is utter hokum from an engineering standpoint, as well as both scientifically and theologically.

That said, there are religious faiths that reject nearly all medical treatment, even life saving blood transfusions, so I can see that such a group might also reject vaccination. But any group that has previously accepted vaccinations for polio, etc. should not, logically, have any objection to a Covid vaccination. But, we all know that many of these arguments are not based on logic.

 

[Marc_G]

Tracking chip... That's priceless. They probably don't wear masks due to the metal nose pieces being 5G antennae...

 

[NateB]

Someone handed me a tract they talked about the covid vaccine warnings due to the presence of an enzyme called luciferin. I have no idea if that enzyme is in the vaccine or not, but it is the name of the enzyme that allows lightning bugs to flash. On that note, my wife's response was how neat it would be if her vaccine site would flash like a mood ring.

 

[Marc_G]

We could light up if exposed!

 

[boatgeek]

We could light up if exposed!

 

[cwbullet]

I recall that some religious denominations were the hotbed of antivaxing sentiment, though I can't remember which ones, and why.
Is anyone familiar with the religious argument that underpins that sentiment for some? Motivations behind it?
Not picking on anyone in particular, just trying to understand and educated myself for future conversations.



I'm not too worried that initial demand for the Covid-19 vaccine will outstrip supply. For month to come.
But, at some point, the organic demand will get exhausted, then what?

I would like to day-dream that education and peer-pressure campaigns will close the gap to near-total compliance, but that's now how human societies work. Even self-serving and socially beneficial behaviors (not stealing, murdering, drunk driving, etc.) require some form of policing to ensure ongoing compliance. Education and social pressure can only take us so far.
I don't see why vaccination would be any different.

Which is where my interest in religious exemptions comes in.
We, as a society, don't accept religious beliefs as a legitimate excuse for drunk driving or murder. How has it become "a thing" to accept it for refusing to vaccinate, and then infect others with measles (major outbreak in 2019), and soon to be Covid-19 ?

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6657116/

I actually agree with you. I do not believe in exemptions for vaccinations. At work, they have to wear a mask to avoid flu vaccines.

 

[cwbullet]

I have a Master's degree in Divinity and I have no idea how scripture could be twisted to support the anti-vax movement or to oppose Covid-19 vaccination. The only religious people I know who are opposing vaccination are doing so on the assumption/conspiracy theory that nefarious agents/agencies are using the distribution and injection of the vaccine to inject a "tracking chip" which will become the "mark of the beast." Obviously, this line of thinking is utter hokum from an engineering standpoint, as well as both scientifically and theologically.

That said, there are religious faiths that reject nearly all medical treatment, even life saving blood transfusions, so I can see that such a group might also reject vaccination. But any group that has previously accepted vaccinations for polio, etc. should not, logically, have any objection to a Covid vaccination. But, we all know that many of these arguments are not based on logic.

BINGO. The same is with snake handlers in church. God did protect you against snake venom by giving a brain not the handle them. Never mind.

 

[cwbullet]

I started to load the car to start moving toward my Thanksgiving vacation and our youngest cat got a vote. He is not stable on his feet and I need to take him to the VET. I might not get to partake in my home (WV) vacation plans.

Poor thing just looks so confused and meows pitifully.

I went from my appt to the arm in the last weekend with plans to go home. It si amazing how kids and pets can derail our plans.

 

[cwbullet]

I have been watch and reading a lot of news today. I am really getting sick of all of the "follow the science" comments. This type of comment shows their ignorance. Science is not dogmatic. It demands testable, falsifiable, and verifiable hypotheses. The hallmark of science is that when there are competing ideas, we can agree on studies that will decide who is correct. Believing in things that cannot be falsified or tested is religion. Science is everything else. I worry we have a lot of religion when it comes to COVID-19.

COVID-19 is becoming a global warming or climate change type of science. If you question the results, you are immediately tarred and feathered and tied to a stake in the public square. A hallmark of science is constantly questioning the results and looking for the truth. We need to question if a mask is helpful and if the vaccines will work. We should still wear a mask until we have definite research proving that they are not helpful. We will get a working vaccine and I suspect we already have it.

 

[OverTheTop]

Completely agree with you CW. If a bandwagon is jumped upon and a certain dogma accepted and not allowed to be challenged, because any challenges are shouted down by loud voices, it becomes just another religion.

 

[cwbullet]

Completely agree with you CW. If a bandwagon is jumped upon and a certain dogma accepted and not allowed to be challenged, because any challenges are shouted down by loud voices, it becomes just another religion.

I acknowledge every opinion. Some are unlikely, but I will acknowledge it.

 

[kuririn]

We need to question if a mask is helpful and if the vaccines will work.

Healthy skepticism demands evidence.
Denialism rejects sound evidence when it is provided.
Big difference.

 

[modeltrains]

He is not stable on his feet and I need to take him to the VET. Poor thing just looks so confused and meows pitifully.

A whole bunch of things are possible but I say take him sooner rather than later, as in as soon as possible.
Had pretty much same symptoms in Georgie cat a couple years ago and his bladder was full of crystals, ended up in vet hospital for several days.
Similar situation with cat named Applesauce in 1990s.

 

[cwbullet]

Vet could not find anything. I think the cat has idiopathic vestibulitis.

A whole bunch of things are possible but I say take him sooner rather than later, as in as soon as possible.
Had pretty much same symptoms in Georgie cat a couple years ago and his bladder was full of crystals, ended up in vet hospital for several days.
Similar situation with cat named Applesauce in 1990s.

 

[modeltrains]

Vet could not find anything. I think the cat has idiopathic vestibulitis.

Still uncomfortable for the poor critter but far less dangerous than a bladder full of crystalization rupturing.
Well, tell him that my 2 guys say hello and hope he gets better soon.

 

[Peartree]

I have been watch and reading a lot of news today. I am really getting sick of all of the "follow the science" comments. This type of comment shows their ignorance. Science is not dogmatic. It demands testable, falsifiable, and verifiable hypotheses. The hallmark of science is that when there are competing ideas, we can agree on studies that will decide who is correct. Believing in things that cannot be falsified or tested is religion. Science is everything else. I worry we have a lot of religion when it comes to COVID-19.

COVID-19 is becoming a global warming or climate change type of science. If you question the results, you are immediately tarred and feathered and tied to a stake in the public square. A hallmark of science is constantly questioning the results and looking for the truth. We need to question if a mask is helpful and if the vaccines will work. We should still wear a mask until we have definite research proving that they are not helpful. We will get a working vaccine and I suspect we already have it.

In religious circles, I have seen authors refer to the rise of "scientism" as a matter of faith over and above actual science. This is seen in a number of areas, religion is one (or more specifically, opposition to religion), as well as global warming, and other areas where adherence to a particular set of beliefs is demanded and detractors, or anyone in disagreement, are summarily reprimanded. That isn't real science, that's faith... and completely different critter.

 

[cwbullet]

In religious circles, I have seen authors refer to the rise of "scientism" as a matter of faith over and above actual science. This is seen in a number of areas, religion is one (or more specifically, opposition to religion), as well as global warming, and other areas where adherence to a particular set of beliefs is demanded and detractors, or anyone in disagreement, are summarily reprimanded. That isn't real science, that's faith... and completely different critter.

Concur.

 

[cwbullet]

Despite high rates of infections: Covid-19 Patients Are Surviving at Higher Rates

https://www.doximity.com/collection...gest&utm_source=doximity-eda&utm_medium=email

 

[modeltrains]

That exchange brings to mind what some of us in the as-of-yet incurable chronic illness community have been saying in frustration for a good while,
Medical science is often more of a faith-based religion than the actual faith-based religions are.

In religious circles, I have seen authors refer to the rise of "scientism" as a matter of faith over and above actual science. This is seen in a number of areas, religion is one (or more specifically, opposition to religion), as well as global warming, and other areas where adherence to a particular set of beliefs is demanded and detractors, or anyone in disagreement, are summarily reprimanded. That isn't real science, that's faith... and completely different critter.

Concur.

 

[cwbullet]

That exchange brings to mind what some of us in the as-of-yet incurable chronic illness community have been saying in frustration for a good while,
Medical science is often more of a faith-based religion than the actual faith-based religions are.

No so sure that is what we are saying.

 

[modeltrains]

No so sure that is what we are saying.

It is less about what specifically you are saying and more about how it connects with a similar to varying degrees concept.
Things like health providers dismissing things such as CFS/ME and fibromyalgia as purely psychological issues with no physical cause or component and not bothering to medically investigate; that happened in the 1980s and STILL happens here 40 years later.
Things like health providers frequently dismissing as psychiatrics stress cases and not even bothering to medically investigate women who end up having things endometriosis or Ehlers-Danlos, or other.
Things like health providers in the 1970s and 1980s just assuming children grew out of autism and not much bothering to investigate whether current adults had it & misdiagnosing some of those who did as bipolar or other mental illnesses.

sort of a "We have this paradigm in mind and you don't fit it, but our paradigm is the High And Holy One therefore you must be imagining your situation."

 

[OverTheTop]

No so sure that is what we are saying.

Things like GPs that won't issue scripts for Oxycodone even though I have nine broken ribs and a smashed collarbone. It was against his "religion" of "painkillers are addictive so shouldn't be dispensed" so I ended up suffering until I could see my regular doctor and get the right medication. Acitaminophen would not cut it for my current situation.

ME/CFS I had back in the early '90s and many people also didn't believe it to be a real problem. That was a constant theme from anyone I met that also had it.