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cwbullet

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Please don't read anything into my statement other than that it is a fact that Pfizer did not take OWS money for development (I don't know if their first contract for delivery was part of that program or a separate governmental contract)...I called that out to say that Pfizer had some skin in the game here as they put big $ at risk (yes, they have the big $ to risk, and there are multiple reasonings for why this may have been the route they chose, and I am intentionally not calling them out as I don't know why). I am personally a fan of the OWS concept and program, I believe it was the right thing to do, particularly because some of the players like Moderna are small, and just didn't have the experience/horsepower/cash to ramp up for the type of mega trial that was needed. Having site infrastructure in place is also obviously vital to the overall testing and distribution effort. We will almost certainly get more vaccines quicker as a result of the program.

I will have to take your word for the multiple vaccines (though I don't doubt it), as I am not privy to any of the other data. I have to operate under the "In God We Trust, all others, bring data" mantra.
I have to agree that it is interesting that Pfizer got there first. They will benefit from Operation Warp Speed non-the-less.
 

Cl(VII)

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I have to agree that it is interesting that Pfizer got there first. They will benefit from Operation Warp Speed non-the-less.
As much or more than any of the rest, they have been there done that on massive trials. No reason OWS can't (and shouldn't) be like a medical Apollo program, plenty of indirect benefits to be had by companies, providers, health systems, individuals and society regardless of what direct benefits an of the entities recieve. When there is time to breath, I hope an honest look at what worked best, and what didn't can be done. If the best parts can be pulled out, and aimed at another tractable medical problem it would be fantastic...I'm probably living in a dream world on that one, and exploring it deeper would probably require the politics that make it a dream world...Catch 22 problem there.
 

Flyfalcons

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FWIW I went on a bike ride this weekend in northern MA. All the entrances to the path had signs requiring mask use. Didn't see any detractors, and people would bunch up on busy sections, so I can't see how it'd hurt. I smoke a pack a day and had no issues riding 20 miles with a mask on. What's the benefit to not requring masks for folks walking around town on the sidewalk or going for a walk or run? For how easy it is to put on a mask I really don't see the downside to requiring them in public spaces (indoor or out). Seems like the butt pain to wear a mask is minor vs. the difference it could make.
Operation Warp Speed is a huge success and I say that, not only because I am a part of it, but because it developed more than one successful vaccine in record time. The process has purchased mobile testing and treating site to give the vaccines and do all that is need to ensure patients get their care. I have 5 of the trailers and 2 drive throughs at my disposal. They are well made and have all of the needed referigeration and freezer space to test and vaccinate.
So is this Pfizer vaccine the one you hinted at coming to market a few weeks back, or had you reviewed data from a different manufacturer?
 

cbrarick

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FWIW I went on a bike ride this weekend in northern MA. All the entrances to the path had signs requiring mask use. Didn't see any detractors, and people would bunch up on busy sections, so I can't see how it'd hurt. I smoke a pack a day and had no issues riding 20 miles with a mask on. What's the benefit to not requring masks for folks walking around town on the sidewalk or going for a walk or run? For how easy it is to put on a mask I really don't see the downside to requiring them in public spaces (indoor or out). Seems like the butt pain to wear a mask is minor vs. the difference it could make.
I'm guessing that if you're on a bike path you were 15 mph or less, probably much less.
Rec riding on a bike path is a fairly aerobic effort, but I do applaud you for doing something for your health (please stop smoking).

However, I've done Tiverton (The Flattest Century in the East) in 3:49 (105 miles/27.5 mph) limited by aerobic endurance -- even a little less air would be bad! This was "back in the day" when I was racing. However, I don't ride on bike paths, I'm on the road with the cars, socially distant from the world.

The point? I don't think a leisurely ride qualifies for the ability to say someone can run with a mask on....
 

cwbullet

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So is this Pfizer vaccine the one you hinted at coming to market a few weeks back, or had you reviewed data from a different manufacturer?
There are two and yes, Pfizer is one of them. I did not use the info to buy stock, but I had inside info.
 

afadeev

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Please don't read anything into my statement other than that it is a fact that Pfizer did not take OWS money for development
Indeed:
"Dr Kathrin Jansen, Pfizer’s head of vaccine development, told the New York Times: “We were never part of the Warp Speed ... We have never taken any money from the US government, or from anyone.” "

NateB said:
I am excited about the Pfizer results. 90% efficacy is huge.
This is a huge kudo for our current administration. I wonder if any credit will be given. Operation Warp Speed is nearly 100% driven by executive order with emergency funding.
Sorry, Chuck, but that's fake news.
Easy mistake to make these days.
 

cwbullet

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Indeed:
"Dr Kathrin Jansen, Pfizer’s head of vaccine development, told the New York Times: “We were never part of the Warp Speed ... We have never taken any money from the US government, or from anyone.” "



Sorry, Chuck, but that's fake news.
Easy mistake to make these days.
I don't think so. I am part of it and I am not fake. A lot of the CBS story was patently wrong. Heck, we are due to immunize in a few short weeks.
 

PXR5

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An observation, and an informal opinion;
I worked the polls last Tuesday and was rather surprised to see about 90% of everyone wearing masks. (Masks were not required).
Yet less than 20% using the hand sanitizers that were placed all around :(

Everyone touching the doorknobs etc.

Folks, wash/sanitize your hands!
 

cwbullet

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An observation, and an informal opinion;
I worked the polls last Tuesday and was rather surprised to see about 90% of everyone wearing masks. (Masks were not required).
Yet less than 20% using the hand sanitizers that were placed all around :(

Everyone touching the doorknobs etc.

Folks, wash/sanitize your hands!
That is common sense, but you are right that is not common for all.
 

KC3KNM

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I'm guessing that if you're on a bike path you were 15 mph or less, probably much less.
Rec riding on a bike path is a fairly aerobic effort, but I do applaud you for doing something for your health (please stop smoking).

However, I've done Tiverton (The Flattest Century in the East) in 3:49 (105 miles/27.5 mph) limited by aerobic endurance -- even a little less air would be bad! This was "back in the day" when I was racing. However, I don't ride on bike paths, I'm on the road with the cars, socially distant from the world.

The point? I don't think a leisurely ride qualifies for the ability to say someone can run with a mask on....
The point was a little personal discomfort is worth not killing someone’s grandmother. Obviously, if you’re running out in the middle of nowhere or riding down streets it’s not an issue, but in more populated paths is it really an that hard to wear a mask for a bit and slow down? My intention wasn’t to call for masks at all times everywhere, which is why I brought up the packed path. Sorry if that wasn’t clear.

I did the Bataan Memorial Death March in NM, a bulk of that was wearing a gaiter due to blowing sand. I’d consider that less than leisurely... Thing ended up soaked with sweat and caked in salt, but I didn’t have any issues finishing or breathing. Gaiters are cool per the CDC as long as they’re two layers.
 

modeltrains

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Yet less than 20% using the hand sanitizers that were placed all around :(
Everyone touching the doorknobs etc.
Folks, wash/sanitize your hands!
That brings to mind that it is quite frustrating to BOTH:
1. be high risk because of messy health involving several different neurological, endocrine, mitochondrial, things as well as being on the edge of diabetes
(well, hey, at least the several musculoskeletal defects don't increase virus risk, so at least I've got that on my side)
and
2. have multiple chemical sensitivities causing things like when you use the hand sanitizers or the hospital grade hand soaps your hands turn red and swell up
as well as;
3. the fragrances in some hand soaps and sanitizers have occasionally landed you in the ER getting treated with asthma drugs and you don't have asthma; and/or the insides of your sinuses swell up then the capillaries just under the tissue surface pop and then you start sneezing blood all over.
(also applies to colognes, perfumes, laundry treatments, air fresheners, et cetera)

So, I do what I can and whatever happens with covid happens, such is life
:confused:
Oh well, no biggie, the media has said that since I have cats I'm already doomed because of some parasite that more people actually get from undercooked meat, but, hey, what can "just people" like me possibly know, the media are the high and holy gods of truth and data.
 

cwbullet

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Wearing masking is public when no one is within 100 feet of you is about as stupid as driving around in yu own car with one on, yet people do it all the time.

As spoken, I am not so sure the mandate without passage of law will be effective or constitutional.

To be effective and legal, any order to mandate masking must be well thought out, credible, and have science behind it. Wearing a mask every time you step outside your door does now. My apartment complex may make sense for that sort of order but my 23-acre farm does not.
 

cwbullet

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Myth for today: Zinc, VIT C, and Vitamins are effective at treating and preventing COVID.
One problem increasingly encountered by 3D printer operators is something one would have been solved a while ago: adhesion.

Fact: There is limited evidence that any OTC or vitamins are effective for treating or preventing infections. Zinc may have been tied to positive results in 1 study but it was not a single agent but a cocktail. Multiple follow up studies have failed to show a connection.

The bottom line: Eat a healthy diet and avoid COVID. Take a multivitamin if you wish, but not to prevent COVID.
 

KC3KNM

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Wearing masking is public when no one is within 100 feet of you is about as stupid as driving around in yu own car with one on, yet people do it all the time.

As spoken, I am not so sure the mandate without passage of law will be effective or constitutional.

To be effective and legal, any order to mandate masking must be well thought out, credible, and have science behind it. Wearing a mask every time you step outside your door does now. My apartment complex may make sense for that sort of order but my 23-acre farm does not.
Have you been out on popular walking/bike paths since covid started? At least up here in VT they’ve been much busier and people don’t feel the need to wear masks because they’re outside, despite bunching up and chatting on the trail. I’ve had someone stop me to ask directions and wouldn’t put a mask on because “we’re outside and you don’t need masks outside”, despite being two feet away from me.

People seem very eager to run with the outside is totally safe narrative. Not sure where the 100ft argument or your farm come into play, seems like a bit of a straw man.

I think having mask required zones on paths like I saw in MA would alleviate some of these issues. The county I visited has less cases than my county here in Vermont despite us being lauded for our handling of the virus. We also have a significantly lower population density here, so I’d imagine they’re taking it much more seriously down there. People are apathetic in general, and I get that, but I’m sick of hearing stories about people not realizing how bad it can be until a close family member dies and asking people to take it seriously. It’s obvious this can do some bad things to elderly people, not sure why something so insignificant as wearing a mask in the interest of protecting other’s health is a controversial issue.
 

Peartree

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Question: My wife and I attended a wedding in South Carolina this week. We wore masks, practiced social distancing at hotels and restaurants, and spent a lot of time outside. But, we were also around a lot more people than we have been for the last nine months and social distancing and mask wear was not always what it could have been at the wedding and the reception. Si, now that we're headed home, should we get tested for Covid-19?

Is there value to being tested if we are asymptomatic?
 

PXR5

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That brings to mind that it is quite frustrating to BOTH:
1. be high risk because of messy health involving several different neurological, endocrine, mitochondrial, things as well as being on the edge of diabetes
(well, hey, at least the several musculoskeletal defects don't increase virus risk, so at least I've got that on my side)
and
2. have multiple chemical sensitivities causing things like when you use the hand sanitizers or the hospital grade hand soaps your hands turn red and swell up
as well as;
3. the fragrances in some hand soaps and sanitizers have occasionally landed you in the ER getting treated with asthma drugs and you don't have asthma; and/or the insides of your sinuses swell up then the capillaries just under the tissue surface pop and then you start sneezing blood all over.
(also applies to colognes, perfumes, laundry treatments, air fresheners, et cetera)

So, I do what I can and whatever happens with covid happens, such is life
:confused:
Oh well, no biggie, the media has said that since I have cats I'm already doomed because of some parasite that more people actually get from undercooked meat, but, hey, what can "just people" like me possibly know, the media are the high and holy gods of truth and data.
I wore hypo-allergic gloves all day.
The gloves remind me not to touch my face / rub my eyes.
It's either that or I have to wear one of those dog cones 😂
 

cwbullet

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Question: My wife and I attended a wedding in South Carolina this week. We wore masks, practiced social distancing at hotels and restaurants, and spent a lot of time outside. But, we were also around a lot more people than we have been for the last nine months and social distancing and mask wear was not always what it could have been at the wedding and the reception. Si, now that we're headed home, should we get tested for Covid-19?

Is there value to being tested if we are asymptomatic?
There is very limited reason to ever test asymptomatic folks. I would limit that to patients who prior to receive chemo or a surgery or those that screen contact tracing positive.
 

cwbullet

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If I use the term Myth, I know it based on false information. I may even post a link if i can find it. Even major new sources are writing mainline stories that are based on crappy sources.
 

Bill S

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I’m excited for those people who own stock in Pfizer !
Moar Mansions!
You are of course aware that ordinary people liks us CAN buy shares in pharmaceutical companies, so there's no excuse. :) It isn't like the '70s-80s, where it was hard for the common person to get small number of stock shares. Sounds like class envy to me.

Or if you have any mutual funds that invest in pharmaceutical companis (many do), you may see a little boost in your portfolio. I believe my portfolio has done decently, so I'm happy to hear Pfizer may do well too.
 

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I'm up 10% on Pfizer, but up 77% on Cedar Fair, the parent company to Cedar Point and Kings Island. Their shares plummeted with the shut down orders when people rightfully expected the travel industry to be hit hard. They were a bargain and are recovering to their normal value.
 

BABAR

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Do we need a mask mandate? Absolutely not. Why mandate the wearing of masks when you step outside your home to run or exercise? It should mask or social distance outdoors. Mask 100% of the time in public spaces indoors.
Mask mandate for public won’t do squat unless associated with a requirement to wear the mask right.

We don’t eat in restaurants anymore, but we do get take out or drive through. I continue to see see masks over chin or mouth only. Americans have become a very selfish people who are unwilling to suffer even the mildest inconvenience for the benefit of their fellow Americans.

Regardless of political party, rather than MANDATE mask wearing, government, civic leaders, business owners, sports superstars, entertainment stars, need to lead by example. I hate to create a culture of shaming, but just like certain derogatory words have been largely expunged from casual culture because it was no longer considered “cool” or “funny” to use them in or OUT of context, we need a CULTURAL revolution that says, “Hey, until we have this Covid thing under control, it’s not cool to go without a mask or ignore social distancing. We can stop this thing it it’s tracks, and keep the economy going, if we all just pitch in.” I don’t call people out when they either don’t wear a mask or wear it wrong. Maybe I should, but I don’t feel like the CULTURAL mandate is there, and without that, a LEGAL mandate isn’t going to work. Are cops really going to issue tickets to people who wear a mask only over their chin? Or arrest them?So we need commercials from Tom Brady and Snoop Dog, and the Kardashians, and Tom Hanks, and we need all the FortNite skins to have masks (or some sort of penalty for players who don’t wear them on their avatars.). I know, I am helplessly out of date with the current cultural icons, but if we can get cultural, religious, athletic, and governmental leaders on board that we need masks in public not because it’s the law, but because, doggone it it is just the RIGHT thing to do, maybe we have a chance,
 

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if we can get cultural, religious, athletic, and governmental leaders on board that we need masks in public not because it’s the law, but because, doggone it it is just the RIGHT thing to do, maybe we have a chance,
March was the time to do this, I think it is too late now. Our culture decided that wearing a mask or not was a political statement. I don't say anything to people in public out of fear of aggression. I already have had people shake their head and mutter "sheep" when I have walked by with my son and I both wearing our masks. I've also had patients who are covid positive and only avoiding intubation because they could move enough air to say its a joke and they have something else. I hate to sound negative, but I have no hope for a cultural mask mandate.
 

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As much or more than any of the rest, they have been there done that on massive trials. No reason OWS can't (and shouldn't) be like a medical Apollo program, plenty of indirect benefits to be had by companies, providers, health systems, individuals and society regardless of what direct benefits an of the entities recieve. When there is time to breath, I hope an honest look at what worked best, and what didn't can be done. If the best parts can be pulled out, and aimed at another tractable medical problem it would be fantastic...I'm probably living in a dream world on that one, and exploring it deeper would probably require the politics that make it a dream world...Catch 22 problem there.
I 100% agree that OWS was a success and should be a model. However, I would like to see changes to the money model. Not that we shouldn't have spent the money, but how the benefits are divided later. Moderna and Pfizer offer good examples. Moderna put zero dollars into development of their vaccine--it was all OWS. OWS is also funding most or all of the vaccine production, but my understanding is that Moderna will get to not only charge Americans for giving them the vaccine, but also keep any revenue that they make overseas. To me, that is socializing risk and privatizing profit. If the US government is fronting the money, they should get a steep discount for US doses and a large cut of overseas profits. If Moderna has no risk, they should have a small reward.

On the other hand Pfizer spent all their own money for development and distribution and should reap the financial rewards of their risk as long as they're not price-gouging.

I also wish that OWS had been used as a model for other responses to the pandemic, particularly PPE production.
 

djmartins

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However, I've done Tiverton (The Flattest Century in the East) in 3:49 (105 miles/27.5 mph) limited by aerobic endurance -- even a little less air would be bad!
Tiverton?
You must be talking about that town in Rhode Island, I know that area well.
 

Cl(VII)

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I 100% agree that OWS was a success and should be a model. However, I would like to see changes to the money model. Not that we shouldn't have spent the money, but how the benefits are divided later. Moderna and Pfizer offer good examples. Moderna put zero dollars into development of their vaccine--it was all OWS. OWS is also funding most or all of the vaccine production, but my understanding is that Moderna will get to not only charge Americans for giving them the vaccine, but also keep any revenue that they make overseas. To me, that is socializing risk and privatizing profit. If the US government is fronting the money, they should get a steep discount for US doses and a large cut of overseas profits. If Moderna has no risk, they should have a small reward.

On the other hand Pfizer spent all their own money for development and distribution and should reap the financial rewards of their risk as long as they're not price-gouging.

I also wish that OWS had been used as a model for other responses to the pandemic, particularly PPE production.
It is actually even a layer more complicated. The Moderna vaccine is (possibly/probably/maybe/likely) partially owned by the NIH: https://www.axios.com/moderna-nih-c...nts-22051c42-2dee-4b19-938d-099afd71f6a0.html (If you don;t like Axios there are other sources for this, it isn't a secret)

As for Pfizer, the underlying technology was accessible to them due to a 2018 collaboration agreement with Germany's BioNtech. This specific vaccine is the subject of a second agreement/extension of the previous agreement between the two companies. The basic science and candidates come from BioNtech, but Pfizer brings the development experience and scale needed to drive the trials and manufacturing.

Both Moderna and BioNtech needed a big partner to turn science/candidate into a proven product, FAST! There are only so many 800 lb gorillas like Pfizer, and most of them have candidates of their own, or other partnering relationships. It was possible that without OWS, Moderna could have ended up alone, or worse, with an incompetent partner (some of the 800 lb Gorillas fall into this category). This is even more likely due to it's intellectual property being intertwined in some way at least with a government lab already.

I simply can't get into a discussion of how I think the money should flow because of how I earn my living. It would at worse risk being hypocritical, and at best be viewed as suspect. I offer the above simply to say that the financial situation is even more complicated than most people probably realize.

Also, I do not own any stock or stock options in any pharma/biotech except the one I work for, and we don't do vaccines...so, I have no financial dog in this fight except as taxpayer. I did this when I became a Research Director to avoid even the appearance of a conflict of interest.
 
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cwbullet

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Also, I do not own any stock or stock options in any pharma/biotech except the one I work for, and we don't do vaccines...so, I have no financial dog in this fight except as taxpayer. I did this when I became a Research Director to avoid even the appearance of a conflict of interest.
Good information in you posts above. The quote above adds to your credibility. I also have decided not to buy any because I do not want to go to jail fro insider trading. I have a significant amount of info on upcoming products and could easily buy a penny to dollar stock that will Soon be 10s or 100s if the research works out. My cousin tried to get me to give him names. Not gonna do it.
 

boatgeek

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It is actually even a layer more complicated. The Moderna vaccine is (possibly/probably/maybe/likely) partially owned by the NIH: https://www.axios.com/moderna-nih-c...nts-22051c42-2dee-4b19-938d-099afd71f6a0.html (If you don;t like Axios there are other sources for this, it isn't a secret)

As for Pfizer, the underlying technology was accessible to them due to a 2018 collaboration agreement with Germany's BioNtech. This specific vaccine is the subject of a second agreement/extension of the previous agreement between the two companies. The basic science and candidates come from BioNtech, but Pfizer brings the development experience and scale needed to drive the trials and manufacturing.

Both Moderna and BioNtech needed a big partner to turn science/candidate into a proven product, FAST! There are only so many 800 lb gorillas like Pfizer, and most of them have candidates of their own, or other partnering relationships. It was possible that without OWS, Moderna could have ended up alone, or worse, with an incompetent partner (some of the 800 lb Gorillas fall into this category). This is even more likely due to it's intellectual property being intertwined in some way at least with a government lab already.

I simply can't get into a discussion of how I think the money should flow because of how I earn my living. It would at worse risk being hypocritical, and at best be viewed as suspect. I offer the above simply to say that the financial situation is even more complicated than most people probably realize.

Also, I do not own any stock or stock options in any pharma/biotech except the one I work for, and we don't do vaccines...so, I have no financial dog in this fight except as taxpayer. I did this when I became a Research Director to avoid even the appearance of a conflict of interest.
That's an interesting article on Moderna, really pretty much what I would have hoped the end deal would be. I was mainly reacting to the Congressional hearing that this article reported on, plus the fact that the Moderna OWS contract was secret, though some of it has since leaked. If you have to keep price and contract terms secret on a public health project, it's probably because they would cause a public outcry.

I'm not opposed to companies making a profit--I think that's a good thing overall. I would be very upset if a company like Moderna was making substantial profits with no return to the US government when the feds took all of the risk on this project.
 

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The stock I've done best with so far is Honeywell. Up 88% since I bought it in March. They support many aspects of the healthcare system and they're a good company. No matter if a vaccine stock wins or loses, the established supporting companies will have a steady profit.

But the pharma stocks are risky. Pushing out a vaccine in months instead of the typical YEARS is unusual. Especially with the complex nature of this virus, who knows what the longer-term side affects will be. I certainly won't be in line for a shot for a long time.

The US is at 1% of the population getting infected per month, and increasing exponentially! This is even worse than the projections I did in April/May that most thought were ridiculous. Going into the holidays, it may be worse by January. The only positive is that the fatality rate is down to 1% or less. But, I've read that re-hospitalizations are up... short immunity and long-lasting side-affects. And the virus is mutating.

I'm thinking that prevention is the safest until the vaccines get a couple years of trials. Isolate as much as possible. Try to stay healthy in general. Find alternate ways to interact with friends and family. It's so easy to get complacent. The saddest part is that many people don't have the luxury to ride it out working from home, etc.
 

modeltrains

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I wore hypo-allergic gloves all day.
The problem is in thinking with the rules of healthy body cause and effect.
Some disease processes can toss logical cause and effect out the window, far out the window.
One or more of the neurological and endocrine problems make it so that at random intervals my hands, feet, or whole body, suddenly get literally dripping with sweat for no legitimate reason other than the disease process and if not washed off before too long rashes arise where the sweat was.
And then there's the rash that's been on my forearms for over a decade that hasn't had its cause found or a successful treatment for.
The new neurologist I saw in January fully expected something new and different to be developing along the autoimmune disease line but covid collateral effects have halted further progress on that.
 
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