Coronavirus: What questions do you have?

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Marc_G

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Chuck, taking care of your family responsibility outweighs rocketry forum chats! Enjoy some time.

Meanwhile, if anybody sees an analysis of VAERS death data whittling down the 5k+ total deaths and explaining them showing how really just a few indicate any trends to be concerned about please let me know so I can use it to help educate people.
 

Jmhepworth

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cwbullet

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Chuck, taking care of your family responsibility outweighs rocketry forum chats! Enjoy some time.

Meanwhile, if anybody sees an analysis of VAERS death data whittling down the 5k+ total deaths and explaining them showing how really just a few indicate any trends to be concerned about please let me know so I can use it to help educate people.
Our teams have immunized over 500K. That is a small drop in the bucket, but we have not had a single death tied to immunization.
 

afadeev

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Meanwhile, if anybody sees an analysis of VAERS death data whittling down the 5k+ total deaths ....

On a social network I frequent, some "Q-types" are talking about how the 5000+ VAERS reports of deaths following vaccination are just the tip of the iceberg and how all of those cases are caused by the vaccine, and there are so many more unreported cases... yadda yadda yadda. There's no reasoning with them, but I try to post rational, informed information in rebuttal so that others won't be swayed by their delusions and conspiracy theories.
You can share data with people, and those who are open minded (and rational) will arrive at similar conclusions to yours. Or share data with you that will help you adjust your conclusions closer to theirs.
On the other hand, the above approach can never work if the person on the other end of the argument is paid to propagate raw disinformation, for a living:
https://www.newsweek.com/qanon-foreign-online-1584765
 
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Marc_G

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You can share data with people, and those who are open minded will arrive at similar conclusions to yours. Or share data with you that will help you adjust your conclusions closer to theirs.
On the other hand, the above approach can never work if the person on the other end of the argument is paid to propagate raw disinformation, for a living:
https://www.newsweek.com/qanon-foreign-online-1584765
Very good point!

I know I will never convince the nutter I'm debating/arguing with, but by sharing quality sources of data and making rational, compelling points, some readers will believe the truth instead of the conspiracy theory. That's my hope anyway! 🙂
 

OverTheTop

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Down here we have the Astra Zeneca (I think this is the one they are using in India) for people 50 and over, and currently people 40-49 can get the Pfizer. Pfizer was allocated to people under 50 due to clotting issues with AZ. They are getting adverse clotting reactions at the rate of 1.9 per 100k immunisations. That rate is too high for my liking so I am holding back until later in the year when there is more Pfizer on-hand. They are getting better at diagnosing and treating the TTS (https://mvec.mcri.edu.au/references/thrombosis-with-thrombocytopenia-syndrome/) but we have almost no covid here in Oz so I have the luxury of holding back. There was a 52yo died from a clot in the brain a couple of days back, linked to the vaccine. A week or so back there were 8 TTS reactions in the one week. I read that early on the death rate from the clotting was about 25%, but is improving.

I am not an antivaxer and normally get vaccines very quickly. I don't want to seem like a nervous ninny, but the numbers for AZ vaccine currently are just too risky for me (age 58) IMHO. The clotting is riskier for the younger people in the population. I am watching the data closely to see when I should make the leap.
 

Marc_G

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I spend too much time on local social media dealing with known Q types who are certain that every adverse event reported in VAERS is caused by the vaccine and that "it only shows 1% of the true deaths" (which if both true would mean 500k+ deaths due to the vaccine). These people are hard wired to be suspicious of anything connected to the gubmint.

I'm not sure why they go down this path. I do understand the "election fraud" set that overlaps with vaccine conspiracy because that is about partisan politics, but the vaccine isn't one party's baby or the other and is widely hailed by politicians of both stripes, and the former president was among the first vaccinated.

Being hesitant about a rapidly developed vaccine is understandable, but now that there are hundreds of millions of data points worldwide, not just US "controlled by our gubmint," and only a few rare issues coming up and being handled with remarkable transparency... These conspiracy theories are obvious fraud and having a serious impact on vaccination rates here.

Humans suck.
 

cwbullet

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I spend too much time on local social media dealing with known Q types who are certain that every adverse event reported in VAERS is caused by the vaccine and that "it only shows 1% of the true deaths" (which if both true would mean 500k+ deaths due to the vaccine). These people are hard wired to be suspicious of anything connected to the gubmint.

I'm not sure why they go down this path. I do understand the "election fraud" set that overlaps with vaccine conspiracy because that is about partisan politics, but the vaccine isn't one party's baby or the other and is widely hailed by politicians of both stripes, and the former president was among the first vaccinated.

Being hesitant about a rapidly developed vaccine is understandable, but now that there are hundreds of millions of data points worldwide, not just US "controlled by our gubmint," and only a few rare issues coming up and being handled with remarkable transparency... These conspiracy theories are obvious fraud and having a serious impact on vaccination rates here.

Humans suck.
Even if I pulled all the deaths in our local area and combined them and said they were all COVID deaths (which most of them were not even vaccinated), it would not come to the number some of these folks are suggesting. I get one adverse reaction per 1000 patients and most of those are either panic attacks or allergic reactions. I have yet to see a single reaction that did not resolved in 7 days (bumb on arm or rash being the longest lasting).

VAERS is scary if you look at any shot. In my life, I have had more vaccines than 99% of the population. Most never see yellow fever, JEV, or some of the travel related vaccines. I have had more Anthrax vaccines than my immunization book could hold. Outside of Shingles, COVID is the most robust at causing symptoms, but I would readily take another.
 

Marc_G

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One thing to note, is that anyone with respiratory symptoms had to be treated as a Covid patient until proven otherwise, with all the PPE and isolation requirements that came with it. This added significant cost and resulted --appropriately-- in many billings for things under Covid protocol even though some of those patients didn't have Covid.

It was not padding the books (aka fraud).

If any books were padded, I hope investigation turns up the crooks.
 

kuririn

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Back on topic:
Chuck, what do you know about the "Delta" variant.
The local paper says a resident tested positive for it.
He was vaccinated and travelled to Nevada in May.
Should we be concerned?
 

Marc_G

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Hey guys, let's dial the politics back. This is Chucks vacation week and we don't want to make him spend time pruning the thread... He is supposed to be pruning bushes I think. 🙂
 

Peartree

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Hey guys, let's dial the politics back. This is Chucks vacation week and we don't want to make him spend time pruning the thread... He is supposed to be pruning bushes I think. 🙂
Yeah, Chuck's not the only one holding a pruner. Don't be surprised when some of these posts get moved or deleted.
 

ThirstyBarbarian

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This virus is going to keep circulating until enough people have immunity, and there’s only two ways to get immunity: A vaccine or by catching covid. If you don’t get a vaccine, most likely eventually you will get covid. You will be “immunized” one way or the other.

So the question a person has to ask themselves is, ”How am I going to choose to obtain my immunity? Vaccine or covid?” A *LOT* more people in the US have received a vaccine than have caught covid, but the number of people who have been shown to have probably died as a result of the vaccine is about 3, while the number who have died from the virus is over 600,000. You don’t have to be a math whiz to figure out the virus is thousands of times more dangerous than the vaccine.

The other thing to consider is how good is the immunity from the vaccine versus catching covid. So far, it looks like the vaccines win that contest too, especially with new variants. Having caught covid from one strain does not protect you from other strains as well as the vaccines protect you from new strains. Maybe at some point a booster vaccine may be needed for new variants, and I guess for people who choose the infection route for their immunity, they can get a “booster infection”.

At this point we are probably about 6 weeks from the last time there were any restrictions for adults getting the vaccine or any kind of supply problems. It’s been widely available without restriction for over a month. So almost anyone who is sick, in the hospital, or dying of covid at this point had a chance to get vaccinated and avoid whatever they are going through right now. Just as the rest of us are really starting to celebrate getting past the worst of the pandemic and getting our normal lives back, there are people still struggling with infections, and I can’t imagine the remorse they must be feeling at this point.
 

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Guys and gals,

I cleaned up the thread. Let us stay on topic and ask questions and I will try to answer them. I hid some posts that I questioned the relevance to the intent of the thread. If I hit your posts by mistake, I am sorry. It was a hasty move to get back on topic.

The Delta or B.1.617.2 variant was the dominant variant in India. We are still digesting the data but it was very concerning. They are trying to change names to letters and numbers and avoid country names. I personally do not care as long as we have a name to track.

Data appears to show that the Delta variant is over 2.5 times more likely to put you in the hospital and it may do so in younger patients. More to come on that last bit when we have more data. The good news is that vaccines still appear to work for this variant. The bad news is that prior infections do not appear to protect as much with this vaccine. There is no data at this time that points to the vaccine failing for this variant. India had a low vaccination rate so that likely contributed to the increased hospitalization and deaths.
 

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This virus is going to keep circulating until enough people have immunity, and there’s only two ways to get immunity: A vaccine or by catching covid.
The latter appears to be increasing less protective as new variants arrive.
 

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Any more questions?

I do want to suggest that you be careful with all of the misinformation out there. All experts are wrong some of the time. Look at Dr. Fauci. He has been wrong a lot but most of those were errors honest mistakes based on information he had at the time. The fog of war makes the "science" of medicine in COVID a moving target.

I am not going to comment on the conjecture in the news about his connections to the lab in China or gain of function experiments. That will get investigated and we will leave those discussions to the COVID Forum.
 

OverTheTop

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They have just raised the age at which you have to have the Astra Zeneca here. Now 60 and over have AZ and 40-59 can have AZ or Pfizer. I will sign up for the Pfizer ASAP. The change has pleased many people that were hesitant to get AZ due to clotting.
 

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They have just raised the age at which you have to have the Astra Zeneca here. Now 60 and over have AZ and 40-59 can have AZ or Pfizer. I will sign up for the Pfizer ASAP. The change has pleased many people that were hesitant to get AZ due to clotting.
I am not as familiar with AZ. it is not available to my patients. I do have a colleague in Canberra. I think they have a handle on the higher risk group for clots as they move forward. Of the 4 vaccines, it might be the one with the most angst common clinicians and the public. I would have a discussion with my PCM or PCP before getting it, but I would probably still get it. The risk of clots is still low and based on current reports, it is lower than the overall risk from COVID itself.
 

OverTheTop

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Thanks Chuck. There have been reports of relativley high rates of TTS clotting events coming from the UK for several weeks. Even here there were 8 adverse clotting reactions reported in our country over one week. Our vaccination rates are not really high so that was raising concerns. Just over 1/50000 chance of the reaction for people in their 50's (I am in that age group). We have almost no covid here so I had the luxury of being able to delay in case the age limit changed. It did and I am happy to sign up for Pfizer. Other countries might not have the choice.
 

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“from Conversation” said:
How are the VAERS reports confirmed?
I think it is important to understand what VAERS is and who can enter a report. Anyone can reports a VAERS reports and they do not require any sort of verification. It is there is look at trends,

From the VAERS website, ”Anyone can report an adverse event to VAERS. Healthcare professionals are required to report certain adverse events and vaccine manufacturers are required to report all adverse events that come to their attention.”

VAERS is a passive reporting system. Individuals send in reports of their experiences to CDC and FDA. VAERS is not designed to determine if a vaccine caused health problems or deaths. It is used to detect unusual or unexpected patterns or trends for adverse event reporting that might indicate a possible safety problem with a vaccine. VAERS provides the CDC and FDA with valuable information that additional work and evaluation is necessary to further assess a possible safety concern.

This is different than COVID death reporting. A death report requires a medical professional to fill out a death certificate based on clinical reports or an autopsy. I can put a VAERS report of a death and I am not required to confirm or provide evidence of a death. The VAERS reports are more susceptible to fraudulent entries and can be a garbage in garbage out reporting system.
 

NateB

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I can put a VAERS report of a death and I am not required to confirm or provide evidence of a death. The VAERS reports are more susceptible to fraudulent entries and can be a garbage in garbage out reporting system.
Is any confirmation done or do they assume a certain percentage is garbage and weight the results accordingly? In any study, self reported data is always the most suspect.
 

Marc_G

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Chuck, how come we hear so little about the V-safe program? The " after vaccination health checker."

I'm aware of it due to my job in the health care sector but I don't recall being informed about it when either I or my family got our shots. I would think it would be pushed strongly. Is any significant portion of the US using it?

Maybe people are too suspicious of it?
 

NateB

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@Marc_G our vaccine clinic told everyone about it and sign up information was on some paperwork they gave us. My wife signed up for it and has received a few follow up surveys. I did not, I figured I could watch myself for any side effects and every work day is spent around many doctors I could ask for help if I needed it.

By the way, once the muscle soreness subsided, I have had no ill effects from either shot.
 

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https://www.rocketryforum.com/goto/post?id=2149050
ThirstyBarbarian said:
This virus is going to keep circulating until enough people have immunity, and there’s only two ways to get immunity: A vaccine or by catching covid.

The latter appears to be increasing less protective as new variants arrive.
A research study, on this very subject matter, quantifies this immune-response longevity variance:
"Researchers at Oxford University found marked differences in the immune responses of medical staff who contracted Covid..."
"...While most of the healthcare workers who developed symptomatic disease had a measurable immune response six months later, more than a quarter did not. More than 90% of those who had asymptomatic infections had no measurable immune response six months later, the researchers found. "
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/jun/17/previous-covid-infection-may-not-offer-long-term-protection-study-finds

Note: the study is a pre-print (still under peer review), with full content here: https://assets.researchsquare.com/files/rs-612205/v1_covered.pdf
 

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Chuck, how come we hear so little about the V-safe program? The " after vaccination health checker."

I'm aware of it due to my job in the health care sector but I don't recall being informed about it when either I or my family got our shots. I would think it would be pushed strongly. Is any significant portion of the US using it?

Maybe people are too suspicious of it?
It has been primarily a clinic and hospital process prior to COVID.
 

jrap330

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I spend too much time on local social media dealing with known Q types who are certain that every adverse event reported in VAERS is caused by the vaccine and that "it only shows 1% of the true deaths" (which if both true would mean 500k+ deaths due to the vaccine). These people are hard wired to be suspicious of anything connected to the gubmint.

I'm not sure why they go down this path. I do understand the "election fraud" set that overlaps with vaccine conspiracy because that is about partisan politics, but the vaccine isn't one party's baby or the other and is widely hailed by politicians of both stripes, and the former president was among the first vaccinated.

Being hesitant about a rapidly developed vaccine is understandable, but now that there are hundreds of millions of data points worldwide, not just US "controlled by our gubmint," and only a few rare issues coming up and being handled with remarkable transparency... These conspiracy theories are obvious fraud and having a serious impact on vaccination rates here.

Humans suck.
What drives me nuts when I heard government is that vaccines were developed by private industry and the FDA is usually called too overly protective when it comes to drug approvals vs what is available in other countries. 600 million deaths and the fact USA society was shut down for 14 months should tell everyone that not only do they have a personnel duty to themselves and family but a civic duty to society so we can cplegely open up. But , hell, no, not to Americans. Because of our suspicion attitude, COVID will never be eradicated and we will live with it and shots forever. We or the unvaccinated will continue to be host and allow this virus to continue morphing .
 

kuririn

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Dunno, since the virus is zoonotic then humans are not the only reservoir for it to mutate.
So even if 100% of the world's population were vaccinated it still might become endemic and persist and mutate in animal populations. Vaccines and boosters will allow us to return to normal with the consequences of an infection greatly reduced. Ever wonder why science has not been able to eradicate the flu? Same reason.
 

jrap330

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What drives me nuts when I heard government is that vaccines were developed by private industry and the FDA is usually called too overly protective when it comes to drug approvals vs what is available in other countries. 600 million deaths and the fact USA society was shut down for 14 months should tell everyone that not only do they have a personnel duty to themselves and family but a civic duty to society so we can cplegely open up. But , hell, no, not to Americans. Because of our suspicion attitude, COVID will never be eradicated and we will live with it and shots forever. We or the unvaccinated will continue to be host and allow this virus to continue morphing .
I meant completely open up...
 
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