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Ez2cDave

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No, you will have to turn it on. I have great faith that these apps will be picked apart with a fine -toothed comb and any funny business would be quickly uncovered. The scrutiny these things face will be unprecedented.
I doubt that, somehow, as the "scrutiny" comes from the "fox guarding the hen house" . . .
 

Marc_G

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I doubt that, somehow, as the "scrutiny" comes from the "fox guarding the hen house" . . .
There are all manner of white hat hackers that love to dig into this stuff. Google already knows so much about me I really don't care anyway. And if Indiana starts using this I will turn it on anyway so I'm not concerned. I respect your right not to participate.
 

Ez2cDave

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BOX #2 & #3 is the problem . . .

"Their phones exchange messages" ( even with total strangers )"Both phones remember what they said and heard in the last 14 days" .

Since this "App" only selects information to be interpreted and does not give the phone any "new capabilities",
a "big brother" aspect of the Smart Phone is revealed ( Edward Snowden was right ).

My wife has a Smart Phone, whereas I do not. Mine is an old, basic "flip phone", talk & text only, with no GPS or internet.
After learning this, even with its limitations, it will be staying home.

Dave F.

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NateB

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Even without GPS, your position is triangulated from the cell phone towers the phone is connected to. GPS is the most accurate, but even without it, our dispatchers can give us your location with good accuracy when you call 911. I'm sure your carrier saves that data too.
 

Marc_G

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BOX #2 & #3 is the problem . . .

"Their phones exchange messages" ( even with total strangers )"Both phones remember what they said and heard in the last 14 days" .

Since this "App" only selects information to be interpreted and does not give the phone any "new capabilities",
a "big brother" aspect of the Smart Phone is revealed ( Edward Snowden was right ).

My wife has a Smart Phone, whereas I do not. Mine is an old, basic "flip phone", talk & text only, with no GPS or internet.
After learning this, even with its limitations, it will be staying home.

Dave F.

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Hi Dave,

I think some of your concerns are based in a misunderstanding of how the technology works.

In box 2, where pre-diagnosed but infectious Alice is sitting next to healthy Bob, her phone says something like "xyz123" and Bob's says "ABC789" for example. They part. Each phone remembers for 14 days only those hashes. Alice's phone only knows "some random phone at some time said ABC789." There's no way that Alice's phone knows anything about whose phone that hash came from. Just, ABC789, and a time stamp presumably. That's it. Similarly Bob's phone only knows that xyz123 is among the things it heard. Note these are not unique phone identifiers like an IMEI, they are one time codes put out only once by only one phone ever. A few minutes later each phone generates and broadcasts a new hash. This data would be useless for anyone to do anything with, even if it were hacked.

And, in the case where Bob's phone didn't have the app enabled, his phone wouldn't hear the xyz123, and his phone wouldn't be sending the ABC789. So, folks who choose not to participate, or who participate but wish to do so selectively for whatever reason, only are part of the system when their tracing app is operating.

When she gets sick, she sends HER data (the xyz123 and so on)... not Bob's data or anyone else's. Just HERS-what her phone has been sending out, not what she heard.

Bob's phone checks the hospital (state or country, most likely) database periodically and compares the recent "sick message hash codes" with what it heard. Bob's phone knows that it heard "xyz123" and if that unique code shows up, it knows that Bob was near somebody that got sick in the last two weeks. It doesn't know anything about Alice. Getting a bunch of these hits would indicate that Bob might be in a high risk of getting sick group, and should isolate. Just getting a stray one now and then wouldn't be cause for alarm.

It's a brilliant system and ensures privacy.

And as for your non-smart phone, I'm not exactly sure what you are worried about. The system always knows approximately where any phone is from tower triangulation, but in most cases nobody is actually doing the triangulation... the data exists, for some period of time, but that doesn't mean it is being used for nefarious purposes. I don't understand the concern.

Let's put this another way. I LIKE that my phone's location is known. If I get in an accident on the road it could be very handy for helping EMS to find me. And my phone actively sends out position messages at my urging, so my wife can see where I am, so she doesn't have to bug me with calls/texts like "are you almost home?"


Any technology can be abused but for the most part I don't assume nefarious purpose.
 

cwbullet

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No, you will have to turn it on. I have great faith that these apps will be picked apart with a fine -toothed comb and any funny business would be quickly uncovered. The scrutiny these things face will be unprecedented.
I hope so.
 

Cnorm

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BOX #2 & #3 is the problem . . .

"Their phones exchange messages" ( even with total strangers )"Both phones remember what they said and heard in the last 14 days" .

Since this "App" only selects information to be interpreted and does not give the phone any "new capabilities",
a "big brother" aspect of the Smart Phone is revealed ( Edward Snowden was right ).

My wife has a Smart Phone, whereas I do not. Mine is an old, basic "flip phone", talk & text only, with no GPS or internet.
After learning this, even with its limitations, it will be staying home.

Dave F.

View attachment 417565
None of your obections really matter. Your right to privacy from the government disappeared when the Patriot Act was passed. Have you seen Title II? All they have to do is ID you as a threat (have you purchased propellant, chemicals or BP lately?) and they can tap your phone, compel your service provider to provide data about you and search your home without a warrant.

You may as well just get a smart phone.
 

rocket_troy

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Your right to privacy from the government disappeared when the Patriot Act was passed.
Even prior to that, if authorities wanted data on you, it might have been "illegal" for them to cature it directly, but there was never anything stopping a 3rd party (eg. a foreign country) capturing it and volunteering it to such authorities on "security" gounds.
 

Ez2cDave

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Any technology can be abused but for the most part I don't assume nefarious purpose.
When it comes to government, I always assume nefarious purposes.

What will be telling is when people who HAVE installed the App, received a "message to get tested", and then DO NOT COMPLY . . . We will see if the system looks at your "compliance", or not. and if they send "jack-booted thugs" to your door or use other "enforcement measures". Then we will know the "truth" of the system, or at least, part of it.

I predict the system will suddenly "morph", if and when a vaccine becomes available, into having an "compliance enforcement" component . . . I hope I'm wrong !

Dave F.
 

afadeev

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Even without GPS, your position is triangulated from the cell phone towers the phone is connected to. GPS is the most accurate, but even without it, our dispatchers can give us your location with good accuracy when you call 911. I'm sure your carrier saves that data too.
The first two sentences are true, but that data is not commercially shareable.
The third sentence is not, since there is no way to monetize that data. To date.

GPS location data is readily accessible to any app that you had installed on your phone, whether you are running it or not.
That includes not just the typical social snooping apps, but also all the games your kids have installed from all sorts of unknown sources, with code usually sourced outside of the US.

Location tracking laws vary by state: https://www.aclu.org/issues/privacy...cking/cell-phone-location-tracking-laws-state

Ez2cDave said:
My wife has a Smart Phone, whereas I do not. Mine is an old, basic "flip phone", talk & text only, with no GPS or internet.
Every phone sold in the US over the past 10 years, including "flip phones", has GPS in them and supports ALI (Automatic Location Identification):

And yes, "flip phones" have internet APN, whether you realize it or not.

If anyone reading this is surprised, google "fcc ali" and/or "Patriot Act"...
 
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Ez2cDave

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Every phone sold in the US over the past 10 years, including "flip phones", has GPS in them and supports ALI (Automatic Location Identification):
My phone was made in 1998 ( no, I won't reveal the make or model ) and I have three brand new "back-ups" ( from 1999 - 2001 ), still in their original boxes. There were an anniversary present from my wife. The phones are primitive, but all I need or want.
 
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Cnorm

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The 20 year old phone batteries still work?

I'm honestly not sure those old phones can talk to modern cell towers.
 

Ez2cDave

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The phone is digital and , yes the batteries still work, as replacements can still be found
 

plugger

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My phone was made in 1998 ( no, I won't reveal the make or model ) and I have three brand new "back-ups" ( from 1999 - 2001 ), still in their original boxes. There were an anniversary present from my wife. The phones are primitive, but all I need or want.
Triangulation via your cellular radio in your 1998 handset is quite accurate. Enhanced 911 Phase 2 (E911 Phase 2) is what you want to look at, the FCC required full compliance with in 2012. The FCC Phase 2 location accuracy standard for network-based technologies is 100 meters for 67 percent of calls and 300 meters for 95 percent of the calls. Requests to carriers are required to be met in under 6 minutes. Obviously accuracy goes up when you have more towers within range of your cell phone. As you might imagine this is all about quickly identifying the geolocation of a handset for emergency services purposes.

Conversely most of the contact tracing apps are Bluetooth based. Bluetooth has at most a range of 100 meters, and that's what makes it so useful for contact tracing applications.
 

plugger

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Even without GPS, your position is triangulated from the cell phone towers the phone is connected to. GPS is the most accurate, but even without it, our dispatchers can give us your location with good accuracy when you call 911. I'm sure your carrier saves that data too.
The first two sentences are true, but that data is not commercially shareable.
The third sentence is not, since there is no way to monetize that data. To date.
Given the low costs associated with storing data, especially text, and combining that with the intelligence value in being able to retroactively query historical location data for purposes not even known at the time of collection I'm not sure if I agree with you on your statement regarding carriers not saving this data. Plus I suspect it wouldn't be a blanket rule, eg some carriers probably store this data and others maybe don't. Unless it's explicitly illegal chances are good that someone's collecting it or piping it to someone else who stores it. Do you remember Room 641A?
 

afadeev

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The 20 year old phone batteries still work?
They might power up, but will discharge quickly.

I'm honestly not sure those old phones can talk to modern cell towers.
Definitely not.
Late 90s would take us back in time to just after 2G launch, way before 3G or CDMA came around.
Those were the original attempts at supporting voice with data on separate frequency channels via GSM/TDMA/iDEN standards. GSM speeds were 10-20 Kbps, but did support the first IP data over the air services, as well as SMS. That was the time of the pagers, blackberry PDAs with physical keyboards, and the sexy T28 Ericsson flip phone that ran the still amusing 'Alien' commercials:

All US carriers had shut down 2G and re-farmed spectrum for other purposes (4G LTE) long time ago.
Even 3G/CDMA is history now, with all US carriers having stopped activating new lines/devices on 3G a few years back, and actively re-farming 3G spectrum right now.

1590073285431.png


The 2G phones might still attach to a network somewhere in South America or Africa, but definitely not in the US or Canada.

My phone was made in 1998 ( no, I won't reveal the make or model )
Then you are definitely BS-ing.

Given the low costs associated with storing data, especially text, and combining that with the intelligence value in being able to retroactively query historical location data for purposes not even known at the time of collection I'm not sure if I agree with you on your statement regarding carriers not saving this data.
Storing data is cheap, but maintaining it is surprisingly expensive (hardware maintenance, operational support, annual licensing costs, software upgrades, backups, etc, etc). Thus, it all comes down to a business case.

Decision tree goes something like this:
Is there a legal requirement to collect the data? If yes, oh well, fine.
If not, is there a revenue stream from collecting this data? If yes, is it real, believable, and sustainable? If still yes, is it a better than the other 100+ ideas competing for the limited CapEx and OpEx resources?
If not, fugggetaboutit.
 
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Ez2cDave

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Triangulation via your cellular radio in your 1998 handset is quite accurate. Enhanced 911 Phase 2 (E911 Phase 2) is what you want to look at, the FCC required full compliance with in 2012. The FCC Phase 2 location accuracy standard for network-based technologies is 100 meters for 67 percent of calls and 300 meters for 95 percent of the calls. Requests to carriers are required to be met in under 6 minutes. Obviously accuracy goes up when you have more towers within range of your cell phone. As you might imagine this is all about quickly identifying the geolocation of a handset for emergency services purposes.

Conversely most of the contact tracing apps are Bluetooth based. Bluetooth has at most a range of 100 meters, and that's what makes it so useful for contact tracing applications.
Unlike newer phones, with built-in batteries, I can remove my battery, at will, to avoid continuous tower pinging.
 

Ez2cDave

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deleted double post
 
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Ez2cDave

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Then you are definitely BS-ing.
I re-checked the phone . . . I was wrong, 2002 model . The 1998 phone was an old Nokia, but my wife remembered that we replaced it, because it stopped working. Sorry for the confusion !
 

Marc_G

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Unlike newer phones, with built-in batteries, I can remove my battery, at will, to avoid continuous tower pinging.
??

My phone, when off, or when in airplane mode, doesn't ping any towers. I'm not paranoid enough to think that it is secretly programmed to turn on the radio to check for commands to spy on me.

I do miss the days of easily replaceable batteries, though.
 

Ez2cDave

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Now you can all see why I've had crazy Dave on "ignore" for a long time. Troll free conversations, if everyone would. 📴
Yet, here you are, focused on me . . . You "ignore", but only to a point . . . Hypocrisy.

Anyway . . . Back on topic . . . Vaccines & Contact Tracing !

Dave F.
 

Ez2cDave

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Ventura County, in California and, perhaps, the State of California itself seems to have a very different concept of "contact tracing", including forced removal of people from their homes.

 
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plugger

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Storing data is cheap, but maintaining it is surprisingly expensive (hardware maintenance, operational support, annual licensing costs, software upgrades, backups, etc, etc). Thus, it all comes down to a business case.

Decision tree goes something like this:
Is there a legal requirement to collect the data? If yes, oh well, fine.
If not, is there a revenue stream from collecting this data? If yes, is it real, believable, and sustainable? If still yes, is it a better than the other 100+ ideas competing for the limited CapEx and OpEx resources?
If not, fugggetaboutit.
Yes, I understand that, but you don't address Room 641A or other telecommunications intercept facilities that were similar to that one. Costs are easily contained when you're just tapping a fibre trunk and handing that cable to someone else. You also seem to be glossing over the fact that telecommunications are very sympathetic to government and law enforcement in all of the Five Eyes countries. Here's more info from NZ.

In 2013 the New Zealand Herald reported that the owners of the Southern Cross cable had asked the United States National Security Agency to pay them for mass surveillance of New Zealand internet activity through the cable.[4] In May 2014, John Minto, vice-president of the New Zealand Mana Party, alleged that the NSA was carrying out mass surveillance on all meta-data and content that went out of New Zealand through the cable.[4]

In August 2014, Russel Norman, New Zealand Green Party co-leader, stated that an interception point was being established on the Southern Cross Cable.[5] Norman said that as the cable is the only point of telecommunications access from New Zealand, this would allow the Government to spy on all phone calls and internet traffic from New Zealand.[5] Norman's claims followed the revelation that an engineer from the NSA had visited New Zealand earlier in the year to discuss how to intercept traffic on the Southern Cross cable.[5]

The office of John Key, New Zealand Prime Minister, denied the claims but admitted that they were negotiating a "cable access programme" with the NSA but refused to clarify what that was or why the NSA was involved.
From:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Southern_Cross_Cable#Spying_and_interception

Earlier leaked documents show that under an umbrella programme called Fairview, the NSA plan is to "own the internet", while in last week's releases the NSA says its role is to "sniff it all, know it all, collect it all, process it all, exploit it all and partner it all".

This involves the NSA tapping internet connections such as the Southern Cross cable, which carries most of New Zealand's traffic. This is "full take" (metadata and content) surveillance for storage and later trawling by the NSA.
From:
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=11222413
 

DAllen

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Ventura County, in California and, perhaps, the State of California itself seems to have a very different concept of "contact tracing", including forced removal of people from their homes.

 

plugger

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Unlike newer phones, with built-in batteries, I can remove my battery, at will, to avoid continuous tower pinging.
Yep, and I can throw all of my electronics into the Indian Ocean. We all make security trade-offs on a daily basis. But I'm pretty sure if you want to use your phone it needs a battery to power it. I'm even more sure that if you had a serious issue regarding personal safety that required you to have solid opsec you wouldn't be posting on an Internet forum.
 

Ez2cDave

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Yep, and I can throw all of my electronics into the Indian Ocean. We all make security trade-offs on a daily basis. But I'm pretty sure if you want to use your phone it needs a battery to power it. I'm even more sure that if you had a serious issue regarding personal safety that required you to have solid opsec you wouldn't be posting on an Internet forum.
My goal is "selective opsec" ( to use your term ), on my terms . . . Not to be seen, when I choose. If I had a Smart Phone, I would either leave it at home or leave it in another vehicle and let it be "driven around", for awhile.

If someone completely disappears, it attracts too much unwanted attention. Internet posting is not an issue for me, as I use a desktop PC in a fixed location, only.

Frankly, I am sort of enjoying wearing a face mask, during the pandemic ( probably will continue to do so later ), because it totally defeats facial recognition systems ( note the pic ).

COVID MASK -05 - CROP.jpg
 

Cnorm

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The best part of that NAR hardhat is you can get several layers of foil liner on the inside.
 

Ez2cDave

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The best part of that NAR hardhat is you can get several layers of foil liner on the inside.
Lead sheathing would be more effective . . . Maybe I should build a Faraday Cage around my bed, too . . . Get Real !
 
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