Congress says some UFOs have a non-human origin.

[Zbench]

You don't get to play the poor persecuted victim of close-minded people here.

All evidence presented by the people who support these hypotheses has a more mundane explanation that is ignored or misrepresented by those people. There is no compelling reason to think those ideas might have merit, therefore no archaeologist worth his salt wants to waste his time.

And for the record, I used to think there might be something to all that stuff, then I took the time to read why mainstream archaeologists dismiss it and what their explanations were, rather than just assuming the man was keeping the alternative hypotheses down. I found the mainstream explanations made much more sense.

I think if the shoe fits, you must wear it. If you can be the arbiter of what's trash and what's not, I can identify with the group that takes umbrage with that approach. As of this writing, it's still a free country.

 

[Zbench]

So, I watched the first Ancient Apocalypse episode and the series looks like a fun watch. The basic facts seem to be presented in clear context though I have no expertise in archaeology so I'm just a layman in this arena.

The writing seems inflammatory to some extent (bitterness over mainstream scientists yadda yadda). But much of that is probably to make it more interesting to the audience.

Looking forward to next episode.

Marc,

I think you need to look at it from Graham's perspective. He's been called a loon and a crackpot for 30 years. Think he has an ax to grind? Of course he does. He's outside the club and wants to be taken seriously and can't get a fair hearing on the merits. I'm glad you are enjoying the show. I'm pretty close to many of the topics and I learned quite a bit.

 

[Cnorm]

Marc,

I think you need to look at it from Graham's perspective. He's been called a loon and a crackpot for 30 years. Think he has an ax to grind? Of course he does. He's outside the club and wants to be taken seriously and can't get a fair hearing on the merits. I'm glad you are enjoying the show. I'm pretty close to many of the topics and I learned quite a bit.

Why do you care so much? Why do you care if a handful of internet strangers on a hobby rocketry forum believes in a technologically advanced ancient civilization hiding from the rest of the world?

 

[Zbench]

Why do you care so much? Why do you care if a handful of internet strangers on a hobby rocketry forum believes in a technologically advanced ancient civilization hiding from the rest of the world?

I quite frankly don’t. What I take issue with is being belittled and criticized and called other disparaging things by faceless and nameless experts who offer no credentials, refuse to consider presented materials to have a civil discussion and in general act boorish with a strong dose of superiority.

 

[Cape Byron]

 

[smstachwick]

I quite frankly don’t. What I take issue with is being belittled

You mean refuted or even just straight-up corrected.

and criticized

You mean refuted or even just straight-up corrected.

and called other disparaging things

Like…?

by faceless and nameless experts

I never saw any claims to expertise. Only some relevant background knowledge and ability to reason.

who offer no credentials,

The reasoning flaws, factual errors, and general scientific illiteracy in the arguments you presented are so glaringly obvious that advanced credentials aren’t really required to dismiss them as bogus. In fact, I pointed out at least one of them weeks ago.

But for good measure, some people here have summarized the findings of credentialed experts who spent a lot of time examining extraordinary claims like the ones you made. Unsurprisingly, those examinations didn’t reveal any definitive single cause of the UFO phenomenon because the available evidence is so disparate and weak.

refuse to consider presented materials to have a civil discussion

Define “consider”.

If you have a problem with lack of civility here, smash Report. The forum guidelines would be on your side if there were any violation. Make your case to Tim or whoever follows up.

and in general act boorish with a strong dose of superiority.

Example?

 

[teepot]

Well that was a strange 30 minutes. What the heck does any of the last posts after posts have to do with the topic? Does any of you guys think your going to change someones mind. It's like arguing politics. Please stop banging your head against the wall.

You guys who don't belive. Please explain how a craft, a solid object can make a 90 degree change of dirction in less than the winke of an eye. And it wasn't moving slowly.

And I am open to any posibility. ET, us, prior us, past us. ET has been here since the begining. You name it and I'll consider it. But it's still ET's.

 

[Dotini]

https://europeanconservative.com/articles/commentary/what-if-its-true/

Thanks for this apposite contribution to the thread. But IMHO it presents a deceptive false dichotomy, a choice between extraterrestrial aliens and secret human technology as the explanation behind the phenomena. So far, the government investigation points to "other".

 

[techrat]

Please explain how a craft, a solid object can make a 90 degree change of dirction in less than the winke of an eye.

I cannot explain that. But explain how you KNOW the object in question was indeed, a craft, a solid object.

 

[Zbench]

I cannot explain that. But explain how you KNOW the object in question was indeed, a craft, a solid object.

Easiest way to explain that is that these craft reflect radar so by their very nature, must be solid. Just like birds, airplanes, orangutans, fruit bags, sloths….

 

[techrat]

Easiest way to explain that is that these craft reflect radar so by their very nature, must be solid. Just like birds, airplanes, orangutans, fruit bags, sloths….

And rain. But rain isn't solid, is it? Its a liquid. Therefore, there can be things in nature that may reflect radar without being solid. Does Plasma reflect radar? I don't know the answer to that, but just because I don't, doesn't automatically mean "aliens!" is the answer.

 

[Zbench]

That’s true, and I wouldn’t expect you to know this, but there are different frequencies of radar. Weather radar is vastly different than the radar the military and air traffic controllers use to keep planes from crashing into each other. Want proof? When it rains there is not a region wide ground stop. It might also interest you to know there are radars developed for land use to detect troop movements. They also work in the rain.

Additionally, I never said anything about aliens, just that the craft must be solid because it returns a radar signature. You did that.

 

[teepot]

I cannot explain that. But explain how you KNOW the object in question was indeed, a craft, a solid object.

I could see it's structure. Large brightly lit craft with a black ring aroun the bottom. It was shaped like a Tic Tac. I watched it fly over Las Vegas and beyond. Now the two glowing orbs were translucent. I know what I'm looking at in the air or space. I have had 7 sightings here in Nevada. I had one go over me when I was out in the desert one night about 3am while I was watching a meteor shower. I heard the air moving above me. Couldn't see a thing. But when it got to the other side of the valley it turned bright red and made a decending left turn and went behind a mountain.

 

[techrat]

I could see it's structure. Large brightly lit craft with a black ring aroun the bottom. It was shaped like a Tic Tac. I watched it fly over Las Vegas and beyond. Now the two glowing orbs were translucent. I know what I'm looking at in the air or space. I have had 7 sightings here in Nevada. I had one go over me when I was out in the desert one night about 3am while I was watching a meteor shower. I heard the air moving above me. Couldn't see a thing. But when it got to the other side of the valley it turned bright red and made a decending left turn and went behind a mountain.

Nevada/Vegas is right by Nellis AFB. If you're telling me these craft weren't legitimate in the airspace, why weren't the fighters scrambled?

 

[techrat]

I assume everyone has seen this XKCD comic.

 

[teepot]

Nevada/Vegas is right by Nellis AFB. If you're telling me these craft weren't legitimate in the airspace, why weren't the fighters scrambled?

Because Nellis doesn't have alert aircraft. It's a training base. Now Groom Lake is 60 miles north east of us. But those aircraft don't fly where people can see them. And it might not have been seen by radar. We have a lot of different aircraft around here. Edwards is 60 miles south west of us and China Lake is 50 miles east of us. I have seen Indian Migs and EU/UK Tornados fly over our town. Pahrump has even been used as a simulated hostile town. We had A-10's, F-15's and F-16's buzzing the town. Even had a small plane with the sensor ball of a Predator flying around.

 

[Bravo52]

Easiest way to explain that is that these craft reflect radar so by their very nature, must be solid. Just like birds, airplanes, orangutans, fruit bags, sloths….

Dirt reflects radar. That doesn't explain it. Just like a C-5 can look like it's not moving on approach depending how far away you are from the aircraft. "Motion Parallax" is the most likely answer to all visual phenomenon associated with these so-called UFOs.

 

[Zbench]

Dirt reflects radar. That doesn't explain it. Just like a C-5 can look like it's not moving on approach depending how far away you are from the aircraft. "Motion Parallax" is the most likely answer to all visual phenomenon associated with these so-called UFOs.

You’re reaching. Does dirt also look like a metallic craft? If an object is seen on radar and also seen by a pilot and appears to be a metallic craft, then any reasonable person would conclude it’s a metallic craft. I was just watching a video of a pilot of a commercial airline who saw a metallic craft and it was confirmed not only by the tower but another aircraft crossing overhead at a different altitude. Clearly was not dirt or rain.

 

[Funkworks]

... refuse to consider presented materials ...

That would be me! But it's nothing personal of course, it's only because I have more interesting material to consider (and so I don't come to this thread very often).

I sort UFOs in the same bin as sports, cartoons, novels, AD&D, astrology, Hollywood, and spoon collecting. Sure it can be entertaining sometimes, but it's not something I'd rely on.

 

[techrat]

Why is it that people who observe UFOs are always in the middle of nowhere? Seems to me that if the mothership was observed hovering over Manhattan, that would be conclusive proof of ETs. Oh wait, it turns out that military test bases are also located in the middle of nowhere. I wonder if there's a connection?

 

[Dotini]

That would be me! But it's nothing personal of course, it's only because I have more interesting material to consider (and so I don't come to this thread very often).

I sort UFOs in the same bin as sports, cartoons, novels, AD&D, astrology, Hollywood, and spoon collecting. Sure it can be entertaining sometimes, but it's not something I'd rely on.

The literature on UFOs goes back many decades. Many consider the best informed and most literate author to be Jacques Vallee. He argues convincingly against the extraterrestrial hypothesis.

 

[Cape Byron]

Why is it that people who observe UFOs are always in the middle of nowhere? Seems to me that if the mothership was observed hovering over Manhattan, that would be conclusive proof of ETs. Oh wait, it turns out that military test bases are also located in the middle of nowhere. I wonder if there's a connection?

Washington, July 1952. Investigated by Project Blue Book.

 

[Dotini]

It can be confirmed that DoD's AARO is currently analyzing "hundreds of files, photos, and videos" on UAP. These are all supposed to be from the previous year, and as we know, the mandated annual Congressional report has now been delayed for several weeks. IMHO, they may be snowed under by the logistics, or they may be reluctant to reveal the width and depth of the knowledge vacuum, or both. Astute students of the UFO history will recall the 1960 Brookings report to NASA which considers withholding certain discoveries regarding ET from the public. (FWIW, IMHO there is no ET presence in our solar system. But, as always, I could be wrong.)

https://www.brookings.edu/blog/broo...gs-gave-nasa-about-the-space-program-in-1960/
https://www.defense.gov/News/Releas...-of-the-all-domain-anomaly-resolution-office/

 

[teepot]

It can be confirmed that DoD's AARO is currently analyzing "hundreds of files, photos, and videos" on UAP. These are all supposed to be from the previous year, and as we know, the mandated annual Congressional report has now been delayed for several weeks. IMHO, they may be snowed under by the logistics, or they may be reluctant to reveal the width and depth of the knowledge vacuum, or both. Astute students of the UFO history will recall the 1960 Brookings report to NASA which considers withholding certain discoveries regarding ET from the public. (FWIW, IMHO there is no ET presence in our solar system. But, as always, I could be wrong.)

https://www.brookings.edu/blog/broo...gs-gave-nasa-about-the-space-program-in-1960/
https://www.defense.gov/News/Releas...-of-the-all-domain-anomaly-resolution-office/

Question. Do you think, that there is nothing in the sky, that the ET craft are un-"manned", or they come and go through worm holes or something else? And not living in the Solar System but just visiting? I'm not being nasty. Just curious.

 

[Dotini]

Question. Do you think, that there is nothing in the sky, that the ET craft are un-"manned", or they come and go through worm holes or something else? And not living in the Solar System but just visiting? I'm not being nasty. Just curious.

Thanks for your question.

But I'm no authority on this subject. Very few are. So my opinion possibly makes, and will make, sense only to me, and not anyone else. I've seen them several times and studied the subject off and on since the mid-sixties, and probably read 1000 books, almost all bad. So I really know pretty much nothing for sure. But I have a hunch we are dealing with another level of intelligence which is intimately connected to humanity through not only basic physical reality such as light and gravity, but also by consciousness, which I consider to be as fundamental as light and gravity. I speculate that consciousness may be the creational and organizing force in the universe. IMHO, we humans are well adapted to hunting, gathering and industrialization, but our sensory organs and genetic wiring do not include higher, or rather, different levels of perception and consciousness such as pervades and organizes insects, birds and other wildlife. We are not well equipped to deal with the present unexplained phenomena. I expect all research efforts to be futile for a very long time to come. The breakthrough will come by evolution in human consciousness. It could take millennia. I hopes this goes some way towards answering your question, and I apologize if it really doesn't.

Jim Lovell, from Apollo 8 on the far side of the Moon: "there is a Santa Claus"

 

[The.MiniTard]

I absolutely believe in intelligent life on other planets. You guys ever check out The Black knight satellite?

 

[techrat]

I absolutely believe in intelligent life on other planets. You guys ever check out The Black knight satellite?

Oh, absolutely. We cannot possibly be alone in the universe. That said, the distances are so vast, our ability to contact one another is impossible by our current understanding of physics. As Fermi pointed out, if they had been able to colonize, we would have detected that by now, and heck we'd have already been colonized. How our civilization didn't mature under the yoke of an alien species is interesting and perhaps speaks to what a backwater world we may be on, in a crummy part of a spiral arm of the milky way.

Even if we assume that we're unique in our galaxy, there are so many other galaxies out there that the possibility of life and intelligent life seems a mathematical certainty. But the distance between us and the next space-faring civilization means we cannot ever shake hands. Physics says that it takes an infinite amount of energy to push a spacecraft faster then light. So that's not the way to do it. Natural wormholes are fleeting and unstable, so unless there's a network of artificial wormholes as Sagan theorized in "Contact", the problem we, and every other species in the universe face, is that we just can't get to meet each other.

 

[Zbench]

I think that all these craft, orbs and other paranormal activity is inter dimensional or inter temporal, not interstellar. Having said that, is it so hard to imagine a technology that can create wormholes on demand to travel from one place to the next?

 

[Dotini]

Oh, absolutely. We cannot possibly be alone in the universe. That said, the distances are so vast, our ability to contact one another is impossible by our current understanding of physics. As Fermi pointed out, if they had been able to colonize, we would have detected that by now, and heck we'd have already been colonized. How our civilization didn't mature under the yoke of an alien species is interesting and perhaps speaks to what a backwater world we may be on, in a crummy part of a spiral arm of the milky way.

Even if we assume that we're unique in our galaxy, there are so many other galaxies out there that the possibility of life and intelligent life seems a mathematical certainty. But the distance between us and the next space-faring civilization means we cannot ever shake hands. Physics says that it takes an infinite amount of energy to push a spacecraft faster then light. So that's not the way to do it. Natural wormholes are fleeting and unstable, so unless there's a network of artificial wormholes as Sagan theorized in "Contact", the problem we, and every other species in the universe face, is that we just can't get to meet each other.

You may be very interested to know that we are actually not stuck in a spiral arm of the galaxy. Yes, most of the stars in the galaxy are in the spiral arms and stay there. But our solar system is in the small minority of systems that orbit around the galactic center, and pass through all the spiral arms. We make a complete orbit in about 220 to 240 million years. So we have orbited the galactic center many times in our 4+ billion year history. The implication of this is that our chances of coming into contact with alien civilizations - if any - is greatly multiplied.

 

[Marc_G]

You may be very interested to know that we are actually not stuck in a spiral arm of the galaxy. Yes, most of the stars in the galaxy are in the spiral arms and stay there. But our solar system is in the small minority of systems that orbit around the galactic center, and pass through all the spiral arms. We make a complete orbit in about 220 to 240 million years. So we have orbited the galactic center many times in our 4+ billion year history. The implication of this is that our chances of coming into contact with alien civilizations - if any - is greatly multiplied.

Interesting! I had thought that all the arms rotate around the center sort of like ripples in a vortex, and that we went around in this way. Didn't realize that we were not going with the standard flow.