Cluster Rocket Using D, E, Or F Engines?

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tfrielin

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I've got one last Estes 36D-Squared D-powered cluster that is on its last legs. It is my first---and only--experience with clustering which I have enjoyed. Watching those two Ds ascend--both lit on a good flight!---and the throaty roar they made was very satisfying, so I'll miss it.

My question is--What two or three engine clusters are available out there now? I'd love to upgrade to E or even F black powder engines.

Thanks for any leads.
 
Estes Sidekick
Fliskits Deuces Wild (also a micro maxx version called Diminutive Deuce)
Boyce Aerospace Gemini-Titan
Rocketarium Cerberus

If you really want to go nuts, the North Coast Rocketry Cluster Duck has a central 24mm with 6 outboard 18mm mounts for a total of 7 motors.
 
LOC Precision has the Viper III and Viper IV, three and four 24mm motors respectively. 2.63 Phoenix can do 4x18s or 3x24s with the modular motor mount thingy.
Or step it up a bit. Their 29SS has 4x29s. LOC Ultimate has 7x29s.
 
Estes Sidekick
Fliskits Deuces Wild (also a micro maxx version called Diminutive Deuce)
Boyce Aerospace Gemini-Titan
Rocketarium Cerberus

If you really want to go nuts, the North Coast Rocketry Cluster Duck has a central 24mm with 6 outboard 18mm mounts for a total of 7 motors.
LOC Precision has the Viper III and Viper IV, three and four 24mm motors respectively. 2.63 Phoenix can do 4x18s or 3x24s with the modular motor mount thingy.
Or step it up a bit. Their 29SS has 4x29s. LOC Ultimate has 7x29s.

Ok, I gotta butt in for a sec... I haven't flown a cluster for close to 50 years (none since becoming a BAR), and did successfully ignite 3 Estes D's in my youth once, but lighting 7 motors simultaneously seems to increase the odds on a non-lit motor quite a bit. Granted a strong car battery, parallel wiring, and so on, being sure your igniters are solidly in place, independent continuity, maybe even resistance checks; but are there any other tricks? Independent leads for each igniter, even if the neutrals go back to a common? I worry about a common neutral on 7 twisted igniter ends pulling igniters from the non-lit motors by the lit ones, but... anyway, just curious... then I'll grab my coat and scoot on out... That'd sure be a sight to see, either one of those RMDU's (Rapid Motor Disposal Units)... ;)
 
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Ok, I gotta butt in for a sec... I haven't flown a cluster for close to 50 years (none since becoming a BAR), and did successfully ignite 3 Estes D's in my youth once, but lighting 7 motors simultaneously seems to increase the odds on a non-lit motor quite a bit. Granted a strong car battery, parallel wiring, and so on, being sure your igniters are solidly in place, independent continuity, maybe even resistance checks; but are there any other tricks? Independent leads for each igniter, even if the neutrals go back to a common? I worry about a common neutral on 7 twisted igniter ends pulling igniters from the non-lit motors by the lit ones, but... anyway, just curious... then I'll grab my coat and scoot on out... That's sure be a sight to see, either one of those RMDU's (Rapid Motor Disposal Units)... ;)

Note that these tips apply to clustering BP motors only. I have not tried clustering composites yet.

First of all, I always use quickdip-augmented igniters for clusters. These make even the ordinary Estes igniters super-reliable. (This may not be necessary with the upcoming "energetic" igniters from Estes.)

Second, I attach a piece of extension wire to each igniter. I have tons of wire left over from shortening e-matches that I use for this. (Ematches don't need to be three feet long to fire ejection charges.) Use insulated wire for this to reduce your risk of a short. I just twist the wires onto the igniter leads and put a little piece of masking tape over each lead.

Third, install your igniters into your motors as normal, and bend and twist all your extended igniter leads together so that you have two leads to clip to and all your igniters are in parallel. This is the purpose of installing that extension wire.

Fourth, and this is something I just recently learned trying to fly my Cluster Duck, make sure none of your wiring is directly under a motor! 6/7 motors lit on the Cluster Duck wasn't bad, but the reason the last one didn't light was because the wire was burned off by another motor. When I got the rocket back, this last motor, a C6-0, was still plugged with a little piece of the igniter still in it and the ends of the remaining wire was burnt black.
 
Note that these tips apply to clustering BP motors only. I have not tried clustering composites yet.

First of all, I always use quickdip-augmented igniters for clusters. These make even the ordinary Estes igniters super-reliable. (This may not be necessary with the upcoming "energetic" igniters from Estes.)

Second, I attach a piece of extension wire to each igniter. I have tons of wire left over from shortening e-matches that I use for this. (Ematches don't need to be three feet long to fire ejection charges.) Use insulated wire for this to reduce your risk of a short. I just twist the wires onto the igniter leads and put a little piece of masking tape over each lead.

Third, install your igniters into your motors as normal, and bend and twist all your extended igniter leads together so that you have two leads to clip to and all your igniters are in parallel. This is the purpose of installing that extension wire.

Fourth, and this is something I just recently learned trying to fly my Cluster Duck, make sure none of your wiring is directly under a motor! 6/7 motors lit on the Cluster Duck wasn't bad, but the reason the last one didn't light was because the wire was burned off by another motor. When I got the rocket back, this last motor, a C6-0, was still plugged with a little piece of the igniter still in it and the ends of the remaining wire was burnt black.

Well, much thanks! Good tips. That's one thing I didn't mention in the interest of brevity (rare for me...) - at least with that many motors, one out isn't as catastrophic, as long as it isn't the center one!
 
Don’t limit yourself to just kits. A scratch-built 3-24 mm cluster rocket is simple because in a triangle configuration, the motor mount fits Perfectly inside a LOC 54 mm tube without centering rings. The fins can then mount between the tubes for added strength.
If you want a real challenge, a 7-24 mm cluster will fit in a LOC 3” body tube without centering rings!


A7B1FC46-BB64-4694-8ED9-8D9DF5DAC534.jpeg
 
I have clustered Estes 24 mm black powder D12's many times. I always use e-matches now and not have any failures. I have clustered six D12-3's with e-matches twice now successfully on my N-1. I have clustered four D12's on my Nike Hercules several times. I use that poster putty stuff to hold the e-matches in place. Tamping in tissue paper to hold the e-matches in place is too time consuming and tedious. I hope to get some experience on clustering composite 24 mm motors this year. I wire the e-matches in parallel. As I recall Apogee says that the e-matches can be wired in series. I find that the lead wires on the e-matches are so long it is easy to wire them in parallel.
 

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I’m slowly working on a four D12-3 fall-away side booster set up surrounding a core that has an F15-6. I would like to use an F10 with its 7 second burn, but am not so crazy as to mix BP and composite motors in a cluster.
 
The Richter Recker is great. CHAD staging it is even better if you are HP Level 1. 6 motors worth of black powder takes it over the limit. 3x E12-0' to 3x E12-8's is really cool and the Richter Recker can handle it without any modification.

A few years back almost ready to go-



A short video-
 
I made clip whips for clusters. One with two leads and another with three. A pair of single clips on one end branching into two or three separate pairs. Clip the single onto the regular controller clips and have a dedicated pair of clips for each ignitor. Never had a need for more then three myself. Never had a failure to ignite the motor.
 
Clusters are cool.

keep track of total propellant loads and total mass for cluster and /or multistage rockets, sometimes just “one more” low power or mid power motor can tip you into High Power territory, which has its own special considerations.
 
If you can get your hands on some use Q2G2s!

Indeed! I have a few left. They are awesome for clusters.
 
This has been my technique for BP clusters using the Estes starters supplied with their motors.

1. Remove the clear celluloid type of material on the starter tips with warm water, then pat dry with paper towel.

2. Dip the starter tips in a pyrogen. I use the ping-pong formula, but I can no longer locate true cellulose ping-pong balls. Instead, you can use one of the vendor pyrogen mixes, or use the fabri-tac adhesive with fine black powder. Check out Chris Michelssen’s blog for how to do this.

3. Before using the dipped starters, check each with a multi-meter. Use those with close resistance readings together in a cluster launch.

4. I just use the supplied Estes plugs to hold the starters in the motor.

5. Use a clip-whip! You can build your own, or check out the Rocketarium website. They have excellent clip-whips! Note you can still use a 5 motor clip-whip for say 3 motors, just make sure the unused clips are clipped back to a wire without touching.

I’ve done up to 5 BP motors with this method. No failures. They were done using a club launch controller, so there was plenty of juice. I have done up to 3 motors using an Estes PS2 controller with a LiPO.
 
Go look at Boris Katan's work. Just glancing at the other thread in the cluster/staging category, I saw 51 BP motors in the first stage alone.
Are you serious? 51motors?How in the world can you successfully fire all of those?I can remember seeing 37 D12's in a Loc Bruiser once and all of them fired up perfectly.Great flight that was.I can't even figure out how to wire up a three motor cluster let alone 51.
 
Are you serious? 51motors?How in the world can you successfully fire all of those?I can remember seeing 37 D12's in a Loc Bruiser once and all of them fired up perfectly.Great flight that was.I can't even figure out how to wire up a three motor cluster let alone 51.
If you look through Boris's posts, you see that he used the flash-pan method on a lot of his launches. He even talks about mini-flashpans. He also talks about sometimes using Rocketflite Cluster fires (CF) for individual motors. I saw someone use a flash-pan at Hellfire once. The method consists simply of an open pan of black powder underneath the BP cluster. The pan is ignited by just one igniter and the powder flashes upward to ignite the whole cluster.
 
How about an upscale Semroc Hydra VII? It flies nicely on 7xD12 motors, or 4xD12 + 3xE31 (CTI). I use MJG BP starters for BP clusters, and they mix fine with stock CTI starters. I twist the leads together, and use a 12v relay system. Since 7 D12 motors needs an FAA waiver, I only fly this at our HPR launches.
 

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How about an upscale Semroc Hydra VII? It flies nicely on 7xD12 motors, or 4xD12 + 3xE31 (CTI). I use MJG BP starters for BP clusters, and they mix fine with stock CTI starters. I twist the leads together, and use a 12v relay system. Since 7 D12 motors needs an FAA waiver, I only fly this at our HPR launches.
Nice! I actually have all the parts to build an upscale Hydra 7 based on the old Semroc LT275 tubing. Do you have a launch photo or a video?
 
Nice! I actually have all the parts to build an upscale Hydra 7 based on the old Semroc LT275 tubing. Do you have a launch photo or a video?
Thanks! Just this one, on a central E31 with 6x D12-5 motors. I used BT-80H tubing on the top, and ST-9 inside ST-11 on the bottom. The BNC-80HVE and BC-1122 cones are nearly perfect upscales.
 

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Thanks! Just this one, on a central E31 with 6x D12-5 motors. I used BT-80H tubing on the top, and ST-9 inside ST-11 on the bottom. The BNC-80HVE and BC-1122 cones are nearly perfect upscales.
That is pretty good you are able to combine a composite motor and BP motors. I have been hesitant to try this combination, or cluster any composites. I'll have to check out the MJG BP starters. I guess they are similar in resistance to the CTI starters.
 
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