CJ's "HOW TO BUILD A DARKSTAR 3 OR ANY GLASS KIT BUILD" STARTS

blackjack2564

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1. After coming up through Q-link, slip tail through the 2.5 loops

2. Pull tight. Done
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I don't remember where I picked up this knot or what it's called. they probably have it somewhere on animated knots for those that know, you could post it here. Anyhow this is a nice slim, trim knot that leaves the tail lined up for next step.
I like it because you have 2 wraps of cord around the link to help with stress from deployment, many knots do not.

Knot needed [pun],:lol:, but something I do,to further protect shock cord cheaply, with out buying any protectors.

3. 2 layers of tape on cord through link.

4. Followed by wrapping cord with tape appox. 10-12in. to protect from charge blast. You will see why only 10-12in later in process where I add a blast shield. If you hang link on something & put tension on it, much easier to wrap. Of course if there are an extra set of hands around to help, they can hold while you wrap.

5. Do same for other, larger cord. Black line there just as visual aid, showing how far tape goes.
It will eventually wear out or get several burn marks, I just re-wrap over it when needed.

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blackjack2564

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{I'm using NC from another rocket till the black one comes back}

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You need an attachment point for parachute. It should be close to NC so the nose cone can't slap payload under descent.
I want mine close as possible , but still leave enough room to work on packing gear comfortably.

1. Slide shockcord through payload, attach to NC. [I use a bowline]

2. About 1-2ft below payload, tie simple overhand knot in cord for chute to attach.

3. Can you guess what this is?
You can buy nomex/Kevlar chute protectors, or with some imagination save money and have a lifetime supply. This is a section of Kevlar fireman's pants,[see where pocket was, that's now a protector for a JR size kit. [There were 4 pockets, now 4 chute protectors] A pair when carefully laid out and cut, gets me 4 pocket size.....2 24x24 size and 6 12 x 12 size protectors. That's some serious money saved for other things.

I still buy many of mine, sometimes I can't get to firehouse & it's so easy to get pre-cut TopFlights from Wildman. Ironing board covers are another cheap source, they are Kevlar in many instances, and always high heat resistant .Peel the foam layer off if ya get one of the cheapies.
Can't tell you how many times I've been on the road and run short. Staying at a hotel for launch......so I just call the front desk and ask them to send me an ironing board.LOL Yeah....I know.... but I NEVER take ashtrays or towels.LOL

I got several pants from the local fire station. They must get new ones when current pair reach "end of life-cycle date" They laughed when I told them what I would be re-cycling them for, & how high they would go.

4. 12in x 12in is perfect size needed here. I use the "bone" scissors once again. Boy do they make cutting Kevlar easy.

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blackjack2564

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When you get a store bought protector, they usually have a "button" hole sewn in one corner.

That's to slide shockcord through. If you don't attach it correctly, when chute opens, it can slide up your risers & reef the chute or worse...keep it from opening at all! One way to attach is slip the hole through Q-link that holds chute on, there are other methods, I just like my simple ''it ain't going nowhere approach".

I lost too many protectors [just sliding them over cords]when they tore loose through the button hole, for what ever reason & drifted off into space. A bit of tape keeps them were they belong!

I'm going to use it as a "burrito" to fully enclose & protect chute from ejection charge rather than just stuffing it in the tube.

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1. Cut slit in corner and put loop ONLY through.

2. Wrap corner around 1 of the leads and wrap with tape. Make sure tape starts on cord to hold protector in place & it can't slide.
NOT both leads! If ya do that..... when shock of deployment happens, it will pull them apart,as shock cord straightens out, tearing tape AND protector.[causing loss]

3 Finished & ready for use.

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blackjack2564

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This is my "Blast Shield" I came up with this after scorching shock cords. Even Kevlar will prematurely wear out from excessive heat cycling.

This is where you can use old Nomex/Kevlar......torn, holes blown in them etc, or my case, scraps of weird size from cutting ironing board covers or pants.LOl

The blast shield is intended to be "sacrificial" it will wear out...get blown up/burnt way before anything else, but is easy to replace & extends the life of your recovery gear. It goes directly in front of charges or wraps around them.

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This is where the tape on cord comes into play & why so short. The charge blast will be confined between the sheild & charges. Only the exposed area on cord between need be taped/protected.
1 Use old [or new] scrap of protector, cut slit in CENTER.

2. slide Q-link through slit, and place protector somewhere ON taped Kevlar section. I leave about 6-8in.

3 Bunch the protector in middle, covering cord to link side, wrapping tape around cord & up over protector.[much like the chute Kevlar.] Don't go to far or it won't lay out flat.

4. Front view

5. Back view

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blackjack2564

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Here's the whole shebang laid out and ready to pack.
I just wish someone had shown me all these simply every day ways, when I started. Would have saved me many a burnt chute & cord. Hope ya likey.

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blackjack2564

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Want to test fly the new MissleWorks RRC3? Ya get to keep it and the LCD.

Jim Amos is looking to add some more members to the team.[Dixon here's your shot!]

Go to vendor thread for RRC3 and read.. I copied the important stuff here.

"I'm looking to expand the alpha team from (5) individuals into (8) individuals for the beta test team when the documentation is finally in shape. I've potentially enlisted a local flyer here in Colorado for beta test (still waiting for him to agree), so I'll need at least 2 (or 3) more flyers to volunteer their services... I need *active* flyers who are willing to go beyond their comfort zones and actively test, evaluate, and engage in the entire testing process. You need to have an XP based PC (MAC software coming) at a minimum, and you need to be a registered member of TRF so you can log into our project forum. Please email to [email protected] if you'd like to be considered. Please describe the types of rockets and flights you make, and your opportunities for launch events... you also get to keep all your beta test hardware for participating."
https://www.rocketryforum.com/showthread.php?44234-New-Missileworks-product-in-the-works-!/page3

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blackjack2564

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Finally I like to wrap some tape around my recovery Y-harness. Prevents fraying wear from all the rubbing when under descent.

If you do this be sure to put some tension on cord while wrapping it.

Otherwise if just relaxed, it will not be in the correct position to do any good.

A quick swipe, with some sandpaper around the inside edge of tube, will de-burr it, furthering the life of cord.

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blackjack2564

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Av-bay:

A few things first, this is just how I set them up, there are many ways. I just like this low tech method. There are only 3 connection points. Drogue, Main & Switch wire. They are all on the altimeter, ya can't get less, you can only add more failure points. Terminal blocks, switches, connecters, etc. are all adding complexity and more solder/screws that can fail. There is nothing wrong with adding features & for some it seems to simplify prepping.....for me....."Less in MO better." I have seen many types of switch's fail or come loose,[even screw switches] all at the wrong time. I have never seen Twist & tape fail.

Batteries: there are 2 camps out there. 1 group replaces the battery every flight. 2nd uses it many times. Whenever I purchase a new type of altimeter the first thing I do is contact the manufacturer & ASK about battery life. Most are designed to work till voltage drops below a certain point. You must also consider amperage. When e-matches fire,there is usually a dead short for .5 to 1 second. Sometimes even longer, so your battery may show good to go voltage but there may not be enough amps left to do the job. This is the argument group 1 uses + "is it worth the 2-3 dollar price off a battery, to risk on a 400-500 dollar rocket?"

Well if it's designed for multiple use on a battery, then I'm for it. After calling and talking to Pete at Pefectflite.....Jim at MissileWorks & Tommy at Adept....all those have minimum voltage requirements less than 9v. I use my battery till it drops to 8.5 volts even though you can go less. I still get 5-10 flights before replacing. This depends on how long your armed at the pad, how long it takes to recover your rocket & disconnect the battery. This is also why many altimeters have a "low voltage" alarm setting, which you can adjust to your tolerance level.

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1.So...........every time you fly, check you battery! [even if they are new, sometimes they can be defective!]

2. When hooking up altimeter wires only strip about 1/4in. bare. If you have too much bare wire sticking out of terminal block.....your asking for trouble, they can touch, short & cause all sorts of problems. Yet I see this all the time.
Wire on left is correct, insulation up to terminal.
Wire on right is NOT...too much bare wire showing.

3. The pull test. Take a minute and tug at every single wire you hook up!. You will be amazed how every now & then one looks like it's in right, but your over or under the connector. This simple little thing will save your butt over and over. If nothing else remember this Tip!

4. Seal the av-bay from ejection charge gases. Residue will wreck havoc on your board. I use sticky tack putty, the same stuff teachers use to put pictures on walls without leaving marks. Ya can get it anywhere where school supplies are sold. It comes in many colors and sizes, they all work the same. Adept sells it....if you get an altimeter from them add that to the order only 2.00. It sticks to your BP's and is re-used till it falls off from grime. [I still haven't worn any out yet!]

5. Since this is my first use of this bay...a gob gets added to every match hole. It will be there for life of use.

I do use charge containers on some rockets [mostly fast, high altitude for me] But for the most part I want a omni-directional charge, which a glove tip gives me. Charge containers are very directional, like small cannons.....I use them only where I feel they have merit, for my application.
Once again.....don't get me wrong here I am NOT saying there is a right or wrong....just my preferred method. I don't want to start any hissy fights on the topic. For everyday sport flying my choice is glove tips.

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CarVac

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I'm going to have to borrow your adhesive putty idea on Disappearing Act; it had some leakage issues on its maiden flight.
 

blackjack2564

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Making charges:

Here's one often overlooked. Your main parachute charge will be the same.
Your apogee charge should be sized to the motor.
I will use 1.5 grams for flying 2-3-4 grain size motors, when I stuff a big 5-6-6xl in the pipe, there is very little room left needed pressurizing. I'll drop my charge to .75 or 1 gram [depending]
A charge sized for smaller motors, when used with a big one will send the payload out like a cannonball.
So consider HOW much volume is actually left over after motor & recovery gear are stuffed in there!
[This is another good reason to have longer shock cords....if ya forget...like we all do.When ya let loose with that cannonball charge,cord will scrub off excess speed & you're butts covered!]

When ground testing use the motor that you will fly with.

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Sooo....

1 out comes the charge kit. Everything I need, matches, BP, measuring scoop, pre-cut glove tips.

2. Need some? Box of 50 from WallyWorld for 5-6 bucks. Just cut off the fingers.

3 & 4. I use one of the BP canisters that come full of BP with AT reloads. They have markings on them, I just can't see them to well. I put tape on side & re-mark for easy viewing. Many times I will pre-measure charges into these vials for use at a later date. I.E. measure all needed night before launch and have them ready to load.

5. Put 4 sections of 4-5in tape on something where you can get to it quick.[wrapping & marking charges in next step] edge of table etc.

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blackjack2564

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I'm going to have to borrow your adhesive putty idea on Disappearing Act; it had some leakage issues on its maiden flight.

You'll like it. Doesn't get hard like clay over time, & very cheap. Tommy from Adept showed me this trick. He comes to our launches. If you have a problem bay....stick some on the inside also, I do that on my high flying minimums.
 

blackjack2564

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I am just showing 1 altimeter hook-up for ease of viewing, even though 2 are installed.

I will use 1.7 for the main. This charge is always the same
1.5 for the apogee [only flying a 3 grain for test flight.] This one can vary due to motor length.

1. fill finger tip & insert match head into center of BP. Best done vertically to keep powder in bottom. Pinch tip just above BP & twist around wire.

2. Grab a section of pre-cut tape and wrap around charge to hold shape & match in place. Make sure to get some tape on wire so charge can't slide.

3 Wrap another section over the "lolly pop" to A. mark charge size easily. B. protect it from puncture.

4. Insert charges through BP's and push putty around wire to seal.

Now ready to install & button up Av-bay.
I will make all my charges at once for all rockets I'm flying, that's another reason to mark charges with amount of BP contained. [ amazing how they all look alike if ya don't lol]

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dixontj93060

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Yep, that putty is a really good idea. I'm going to have to try it. If it works, I'm ditching the hot glue gun!
 

grouch

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Thanks for taking the time to write this stuff up Jim. I have been planning on rebuilding my avbay with simplicity in mind for quite some time now. I just haven't had the time to work on it. I have also been wanting to try the powder in the glove charges, seems like the way to go. The adhesive putty is also a great idea. I have taped over the holes in the past but the putty looks a lot easier. Your last few post have given me the motivation to redo my avbay as well as confirming a few ideas.
 

blackjack2564

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Yep, that putty is a really good idea. I'm going to have to try it. If it works, I'm ditching the hot glue gun!

Did ya sign up for the Missleworks testing? [post # 276] I put it there for you specifically:dark:

Thanks for taking the time to write this stuff up Jim. I have been planning on rebuilding my avbay with simplicity in mind for quite some time now. I just haven't had the time to work on it. I have also been wanting to try the powder in the glove charges, seems like the way to go. The adhesive putty is also a great idea. I have taped over the holes in the past but the putty looks a lot easier. Your last few post have given me the motivation to redo my avbay as well as confirming a few ideas.

Thanks..........&......Glad to give a kick in the butt! Now go finish it.:smile:
 
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blackjack2564

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1. Charges now installed into BP's and sealed. Cut excess wire from ends of matches to keep install neat. Hook'em up to altimeter.

2. Extend the switch wire and bend small tab on end.

3. Fish through a vent under sled. It's real easy after a time or 2, the tab just pops up right through the hole! Using 2 altimeters, use 2 vent holes under sled. [I do, others pull them through same hole or even on top hole above sled. There is no right or wrong, I just try to keep it neat.

4. Grab it & pull through.

5. Ya can see switch wires under sled & out of the way, makes tucking in the excess after arming a snap. Keeps it neat & out of the way from match wires on top of sled.

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blackjack2564

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1. This can be an aggravating "gotch ya" if your not careful. Make sure wire is not going over edge of sled when you close up the end cap. It may close fine,but if your fit is as tight as mine, you may pinch wire.

2 It should be clear of sled like here. Just something that can get overlooked.

3 Take av-bay outside or somewhere safe, put on your sunglasses and power up[ya only need about 1in. of bare wire to twist], listening for correct continuity beeps. If there is a problem, ya caught it before installing into rocket. Much easier to correct now, before all the screws or rivets are in place.
Cut power wire when finished so ya have fresh wire to twist for next power up. This is really the only problem you may encounter with "Twist & Tape". Don't try to twist wires more than once or you can run into problems with a good connection. Really the only "rookie" mistake I see.

4. bend over & tape wire so it doesn't get "magically" back into hole. Then ya gotta take the whole thing apart to fish it again.

Well there ya go....pretty darn simple after a time or two & the fewest number of fail points when wiring/arming an av-bay.
By the way I have flown charges in nitrile finger tips to 24,000ft + they contain the charge very well. You can put a couple wraps of electrical tape around the charge to keep the rubber from expanding at high altitude.

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dixontj93060

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Did ya sign up for the Missleworks testing? [post # 276] I put it there for you specifically:dark:

CJ, yes, I saw that and appreciate it. Unfortunately though, I don't think I would fit Jim Amos' category of an "active flyer" as I attend only a half a dozen launches per year (and only two between now and June when the beta testing would be most critical).
 

cwbullet

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Jim,

You simply amaze me with your shock cord tape protection. You just saved me a butt load a money without having to get Geico.

Is that masking tape?
 

JordanT

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Is that masking tape?

Yeah, what he said. And how many flights does the (masking) tape usually last?

Thanks again, Jim, for posting details of your AV sled build. It looks like you are just direct-wiring your ematch leads to the altimeter - no connectors. That's very close to how I've done mine, mainly because I didn't think about using a connector, and had little room to do so on the 2" bay I just finished.

Looking at your wiring, it seems to be all solid conductor. I had several of my solid core connections break (over time) at solder joints and I'm seriously considering stranded for the next build to avoid that failure mode.
 

farsidius

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I started flying dual deploy last year after buying a Vindicator Jr at the 2011 BS sale. In building and preparing for my first flight I made a lot of calls to Tim regarding the AV bay and other stuff specific to DD. He explained to me the simple twist and tape switch and the glove tip charges. I loved the simplicity and have used nothing else. I've added three more HP rockets to my fleet over the last year and put up 30+ DD flights last year, all using these methods. I haven't had one failure and I believe that keeping it simple is the key. The glove tip charges was a no-brainer for me - I work in a medical lab and neoprene gloves are endless, I probably get 1-2 free boxes a month from medical supply companies wanting me to "test out" and switch to their product (you'd be surprised at how many different types of disposable gloves there are..lol).

Jim, thanks for the superbly detailed build. I hope to get started on mine soon.
 

Green Jello

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Ok...I just got lost a bit. What is the wire coming out of the vent hole? Are you twisting the two sides together to function as an arming switch during testing?
 

patelldp

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I've been using these methods for 8-9 years now. Tried and true, but never before spelled out on these forums before! Great resource Jim! Thanks for going through the pain of photo illustrating what a lot of us just do without putting much thought into it.

If you can't find a set of gloves, cutting the corner out of a plastic baggy will work as well. If you can't find a plastic baggie, a square cut out of a grocery bag will work. If you can find that, you probably forgot to dress yourself before you drove to the field.

On larger rockets with e-bay's higher up (in an ebay on top of a 60" booster, for example) and you don't want to climb, you can have the twist wire exit out of the drogue-side bulkhead. From there, you fish the wire out of a vent hole in your booster, say at the top of the motor mount. At the pad, twist the wires and cover them with electrical tape, then use a screw driver and push them into the booster.
 

blackjack2564

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Is that masking tape?

Yes..just good old masking tape.

Yeah, what he said. And how many flights does the (masking) tape usually last?
Looking at your wiring, it seems to be all solid conductor. I had several of my solid core connections break (over time) at solder joints and I'm seriously considering stranded for the next build to avoid that failure mode.

Tape lasts depending on charge sizes. On small rockets where charge is generally under 2grams...seems to last forever. On big projects where charge can be 4-8grams, it can get scorched after several flights. Just add another layer & keep flying. Quick &cheap.

The "Blast Protector" is the real hero for cord protection.

Only match wire & switch wires are solid core. Since there is no solder on these....no problemo. They get replaced every flight[match wire] and every several flights [switch wire]

Leads from battery ARE stranded and tinned, so NO problem there either.

The glove tip charges was a no-brainer for me - I work in a medical lab and neoprene gloves are endless, I probably get 1-2 free boxes a month from medical supply companies wanting me to "test out" and switch to their product (you'd be surprised at how many different types of disposable gloves there are..lol).

Jim, thanks for the superbly detailed build. I hope to get started on mine soon.

+1 on gloves....anything free is "MO Better" & thanks!
You will have to give us a report on which brands work best for our use.!!!!

Ok...I just got lost a bit. What is the wire coming out of the vent hole? Are you twisting the two sides together to function as an arming switch during testing?

This wire is your power .
Correct. first pinch the bare wires together, keep pinched so power doesn't "bounce'' [turn off & on from losing/gaining contact] while twisting the 2 leads tightly.
Not only for testing, but for flying also. When av-bay is connected to payload, it will get "twisted & taped'' to side of payload tube. This way you can untwist & power off should flight get scratched. Some tuck it back inside the hole [twist & tuck], problem with that you cannot turn off safely...you must disassemble to get to power wire.

I will tuck inside for one reason only....high mach flights where I want smooth streamlined profile. Those flights are very rare in overall scheme of things. For everyday sport flying up to Mach 1-2 I have never had wire get blown off tube from speed.

I've been using these methods for 8-9 years now. Tried and true, but never before spelled out on these forums before! Great resource Jim! Thanks for going through the pain of photo illustrating what a lot of us just do without putting much thought into it.

The most asked question I often get at launches [next to how does injection work?] is the twist & tape vs twist & tuck inside tube. How to do it & how does it work. Simple enough for those of us who do it, but seems hard to grasp for those not yet exposed to the process. I thought it was time for a detailed explanation.

Final episode in this power-up saga comes when we assemble rocket for pad & show how & where to tape pigtail.:smile:
 
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Green Jello

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So where do you stand on using some type of pipe or cap to house the ejection charges to direct the blast up? Unnecessary?
 

blackjack2564

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Jello....

"Remember these are just my opinions & should be taken with that in mind."

That's pretty much a personal choice, but for the most part in keeping with my "simplicity'' theme, it's just another unneeded object to mount on your BP.

On the other hand they can make for a Nice solution & are easy to prep if you size & mount them correctly. Plastic scorches & copper pits/corrodes over time, making cleaning a bit difficult. Ya use the finger tips once, throw away & build a new one every time.
I have some kits that come with them so I use them there. They are aluminum, mount well & clean easily....THAT makes a big difference. The Cadillac version are Gary T's " Blast Caps". If I were to use them on a regular basis I would spring for those. That's how they should be made. first class all the way.

It takes the same amount of time to prep either one, load, stick in a match,[ top with wadding & tape for blast caps] or tape finger tip, so it's a wash either way for me. [I have my method down to a science, it may be easier for others to use mounted caps]

It does seem ya use less powder in a confined space and is highly directional,which is a definite plus for "little room high altitude flights" but those are few & far between for me.

This is one choice you must make, one is really not better than the other, but more of a style of flying pick.

What do you guys think...that have used both? Let's get some pro's & con's from users in the field.
 
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Green Jello

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Looking at this picture:

View attachment 111565

I just wonder if after launch, the BP charge would be pressed up against the bulkhead due to the G forces.

Again...I've never done dual deploy, so take anything I say as "N00B!"
 

UncleVanya

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Thanks....one of the biggest problems I have is: I live in a 140yr old Victorian row house [BrownStone].
There are only windows front and back, so there is very little natural lighting.
A few months ago I switched my bulbs to florescent type energy savers & some LEDS. Although they seem fine to the eye, they really screw with camera. Pics come out really weird colors & the auto-focus won't focus or compensate.There are settings on the camera, but they just don't seem to work every time.

Have you tried finding a painting light from a big box store? They come with stands or clip on holders and they are BRIGHT and they have good color balance.

When you get a store bought protector, they usually have a "button" hole sewn in one corner.

That's to slide shockcord through. If you don't attach it correctly, when chute opens, it can slide up your risers & reef the chute or worse...keep it from opening at all! One way to attach is slip the hole through Q-link that holds chute on, there are other methods, I just like my simple ''it ain't going nowhere approach".

I lost too many protectors [just sliding them over cords]when they tore loose through the button hole, for what ever reason & drifted off into space. A bit of tape keeps them were they belong!

Been there done that... slid one up around a beautiful cupped 6' parabola and watched it Roman candle in! Since then I changed my method. I use either a quick link and make sure the button hole is held onto the quick link. Pass the open quick link through the button hole so and then stuff one side of the hole border into the link and close so that it is captive. The other method is to tie a loop around the button hole so that it cannot move up or down.

Finally I like to wrap some tape around my recovery Y-harness. Prevents fraying wear from all the rubbing when under descent.

If you do this be sure to put some tension on cord while wrapping it.

Any reason you couldn't tape the two halves of the Y together where they reach the body tube edge? It would spread the shock over a larger taped area. I have also take a pair of equal lengths of wide Gorilla Tape and sandwiched the shock cord between them - a square from a wide roll is plenty large enough and adds more surface area. If I did this with a Y harness I would do it separately on each half and then tape them together with a larger piece.


1 out comes the charge kit. Everything I need, matches, BP, measuring scoop, pre-cut glove tips.

2. Need some? Box of 50 from WallyWorld for 5-6 bucks. Just cut off the fingers.

3 & 4. I use one of the BP canisters that come full of BP with AT reloads. They have markings on them, I just can't see them to well. I put tape on side & re-mark for easy viewing. Many times I will pre-measure charges into these vials for use at a later date. I.E. measure all needed night before launch and have them ready to load.

5. Put 4 sections of 4-5in tape on something where you can get to it quick.[wrapping & marking charges in next step] edge of table etc.

Nice idea! I wonder if you could use nail polish on the raised markings on the centrifuge vials (the AT canisters) to make them easier to read?
 

blackjack2564

Crazy Jim's Gone Banana's
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Have you tried finding a painting light from a big box store? They come with stands or clip on holders and they are BRIGHT and they have good color balance.

YEP THAT'S WHAT I HAVE....................................

Been there done that... slid one up around a beautiful cupped 6' parabola and watched it Roman candle in! Since then I changed my method. I use either a quick link and make sure the button hole is held onto the quick link. Pass the open quick link through the button hole so and then stuff one side of the hole border into the link and close so that it is captive. The other method is to tie a loop around the button hole so that it cannot move up or down.

THOSE ARE ALL GOOD SOLUTIONS ..............................................

Any reason you couldn't tape the two halves of the Y together where they reach the body tube edge? It would spread the shock over a larger taped area. I have also take a pair of equal lengths of wide Gorilla Tape and sandwiched the shock cord between them - a square from a wide roll is plenty large enough and adds more surface area. If I did this with a Y harness I would do it separately on each half and then tape them together with a larger piece.

JUST NEVER THOUGHT OF IT...........ANOTHER GOOD IDEA WITH MERIT..................




Nice idea! I wonder if you could use nail polish on the raised markings on the centrifuge vials (the AT canisters) to make them easier to read?

THAT ONE WON'T WORK...... IT CHIPS RIGHT OFF....NOTHING STICKS TO POLYPROPYLENE OTHER THAN TAPE.....AT LEAST WITH WHAT I'VE TRIED SO FAR.LOL
 
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