CJ's 2-stage "Voo-Doo" Punisher 75mm to 54mm.

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blackjack2564

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I haven't done a build of my own in quite awhile, soooo......:grin:

Here's a teaser. What do you suppose "Voo-Doo" is gonna be? [it is a Punisher, but this one will be a Hemi.]

I've been flying the heck out of my "Punisher" and that thing really scoots on all sizes of motors. Really like the size of the darn thing, nice and small, but yet will fit the largest 6xl 54's in it. Easy to carry in & out of launch & fields. So how to make it 'Mo Better....fly faster & higher?

Here ya go...what it that CJ a think'n? :dark:


DSCN4951.jpg



Well ..........................:wink:

DSCN4949.jpg






There are 3 obvious hints in the pic!
 
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SCrocketfan

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L935 staged to L265?

Can't wait, should be an awesome build!
 

MikeL

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Looks like you're adapting the rear for an interstage coupler...
 

blackjack2564

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Hey..... that's not a bad idea!

Some body sim that...how high-fast. Keep adding/losing weight to the top.......... for max.
 

Onebadhawk

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Well,,
fer sure,,
Your reshaping the fins for optimal velocity..
And to go along with that your making the fin span shorter / fins smaller....

But that's only 2 things...
What else is in the 2 pic's ???

Teddy
 

Wayco

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Minimum diameter...
Booster would work as a MD, but would the sustainer?
I'm planning a 3" two stage like that, with a Punisher on top and a DS booster. Waiting for Airfest, where some Crazy Guy is selling me a 2 stage Competitor sustainer with Intimidator booster.
This project might be the replacement for the one he is bringing to me...
 

blackjack2564

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This project might be the replacement for the one he is bringing to me...


Distinct possibility.

There are many possibilities.

Haven't decided yet.

Why we are here at this point....at this time.

I'm trying to figure out another way to DD, similar to the NC one I did, but different.

Big Honk'n Boosted Dart maybe?
 

blackjack2564

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No, utilizing an interstage coupler as NC and DD out of that. Brainstorming for last few days, don't know if I can do it yet, but my 2 last brain-cells are having an interesting discussion!
 

blackjack2564

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Here are part of the parts, went to Auto-parts store for brake line. If it goes too fast....might have to hit the discs's hard...LOL

Just finished cutting everything.

The first pic above shows how I'm keeping the fins in the same place as a single stage Punisher. For a 3in 2-stage normally the fins would be 3in from rear of airframe. Theses will be 1/2 from rear, but coupler will fit in all the way for 1 caliber [3in-diamter]

Teddy......there's a "2" on the fin......Coupler hanging out it's butt......and the Tab on fin cut back so coupler still goes 3inches into sustainer but the fins are at rear.

Keeps the CP back where it belongs on such a short rocket. The slot goes over the coupler & that part of fin will glue in slot, but not through it, so coupler can go under last 1.5 just 1/2in of fin is surface mounted.

DSCN4954.jpg



Out with the rum it's 4.30...... somewhere ......... I'll throw back a couple and REALLY figure this stuff out.
 

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watermelonman

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Count me in as excited! L640 would probably be my choice for a 6XL booster, not that it matters much.
 

blackjack2564

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Everything matters. Hey did you ever get your Punisher straightened out after the "wiggle-wiggle-wiggle"?

I'm a think'n 75mm minimum for first stage. Probably use my SpaceCowboy-75 fin can for the booster.

DSCN0806.jpg

Maybe..... "Franken-Punisher" !
 

watermelonman

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Hah, all I meant was that the peak thrust does not differ much. I cannot help but feel the oomph coming from imax, despite being awesome motors, is not quite the same as others. Plus, dual thrust is cool!

I am going to work on my Punisher, but I need to get the deployment nicely settled before giving any more 6XL motors a shot. I still want to try a minor lengthening, partially for fitting motors and partially because done to the nose end it will be completely reversible. More soon, after my next launch 07/18!
 

blackjack2564

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After a bit "O"-Grog, cleared the head and began the details.

Bought some 3/16 brake line for the starter conduit[rather than the standard 1/4in.hobby shop tube] between altimeter and motor. This leaves just enough room on CR to center holes and line up the end flush with the Aero-Pac retainer. Not much space on a 3-to 54 CR.
Cut conduit down to 20 inches-plenty in a 33in airframe. Left the flare on end near motor to make fishing the starter wire through line.

DSCN4945.jpg

Plan is to have look of regular Punisher, & keep CP in back, by cutting of part of fin tab, shortening slot and having part tab on fin that just goes in part slot [1.5 in.] flush with inside diameter. Last inch will be surface mount.

You can barely tell by the tiny tab in back. But enough to grab slot for more strength.

DSCN4949.jpg

Once in place...looks just like regular Punisher, yet coupler will go full 3in into sustainer. I now have a full 1.5 inches of airframe in back non-slotted, holds shape of tube better for nicer fit of coupler.

DSCN4951.jpg

Lot of hand fitting & filing to get everything "just so".
 
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blackjack2564

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I'm skipping over a lot of the regular build stuff, ya can see a full blown Punisher build here;

https://www.rocketryforum.com/showthread.php?120615-CJ-s-quot-PUNISHER-quot-build!/page4

During dry fit decided I needed to notch fins to fit over rear CR, so they would get more "bite" in slots.

DSCN4979.jpg


Fit fins between CR's and glued in place for later fitting once in airframe.
Notched top ring for recovery harness.
Dry fit and draw lines through slots to keep Kevlar from interfering with fin placement & conduit placement.
Glue everything up ready to insert into airframe.

DSCN4987.jpg


Conduit lays up to edge of motor retainer & is centered perfect! Should make inserting sustainer motor starter a breeze.
I bring it up close to edge of retainer for easier prepping, rather than back by CR.....harder to fish igniter that way.

DSCN4984.jpg
 
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Onebadhawk

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That's a beautiful, meticulous build Jim...

Lot of hand fitting & filing to get everything "just so".

I love it,,,
really cool work....

Teddy
 

JimJarvis50

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During dry fit decided I needed to notch fins to fit over rear CR, so they would get more "bite" in slots.
Good idea getting most of the "surface" part of the fins into the slot. My first two-stage was the PML quantum leap, which uses the same technique for clearing room for the staging coupler. But, that part of the fin is just surface mounted and not slotted. Similar to the USS Bakula, the fins fluttered violently. Unlike the USS Bakula, the rocket shreded. It was not a good rocket day. You could see, from markings on the airframe, where the surface mounted part of the fin has fluttered back and forth about 45 degrees each way.

Jim
 

blackjack2564

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..As the " other Jim" mentions, I need to utilize that exposed bit of slot by having the tiniest of tabs be locked & glued in.

To prevent excess glue leaking insidee my tube, need a coupler to "block" the slot and support that tab while tacking fins in place.

The only benefit to this scenario was being able to see the interstage/coupler fit to the centering ring through the slot.
It was not perfect, the coupler was tight on 1.... almost on 2nd .....and "not" on third. Only by the tiniest margin, & when rotated would only shift the issue.

So I spent some time this afternoon futzing here and there with the tape measure & sandpaper till I got the perfect fit I was after. Not only the Centering ring to airframe being square, but the end of coupler "trued" square.

Just being off a smidgen will add flex or play between the sustainer and booster. The fit was so good, no matter how you rotated coupler you can't see the joint in any slot....so I pulled it apart to show in pic. This is my 4th 2-stager, and as I continue on my journey, finding that even the smallest detail can not be overlooked if you want perfection in how they work.
Any flex/wobble at ALL between any of the joints, just compounds matters, and risks a straight flight or worse.



DSCN4995.jpg

DSCN4991.jpg

Time to tack fins on....... coupler is so smooth & snug, I can't wrap with wax paper or plastic. I have greased them in past,so glue would not stick, but that's a pain to clean up later, requiring Q-Tip and alcohol to wipe out the airframe. Glance over the shipping table and spotted the clear packing tape. It WAS thin enough I could cover the coupler with 3 sections where slots were.


DSCN4988.jpg


Took a bit of persuasion to get it in....LOl But I did and on to the alignment guide and tack in process. Last minute decided to just do 1 at a time in case my experiment didn't work & rather the glue 3 fins to the coupler ...I knew I could knock 1 loose.

Well after couple hours the JB Weld was set up and the coupler [with a nudge] came right out. So now I have another trick to keep in my rocket tool box. Finished the remaining 2, all went fine and that's where we are.

By the way, I had Tim make the jig, and it was another exact fit on tube/fins. just the tiniest of sanding needed to clean the tool marks.

DSCN4996.jpg


Ps Thanks Teddy... I see the same care & pride in the harnesses you make & one of the ones I got from you at LDRS, will be in this project.
 
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Onebadhawk

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Very very cool Jim,,,
I also enjoy very much being really careful and meticulous with the things I work on...
I guess that's why I buy parts from Tim and scratch build with em....

Teddy
 

blackjack2564

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Been sanding, sanding, wet-sanding for several days...........

After the tacking fins, injecting internal fillets, finally external:

Did a little different this time, added a fairing compound [cabosil] which is an adhesive besides filler....along with colloidal silica to lighten it up Brutal to sand,but hopefully results are worth it. Used this formulayears ago when leveling a helicopter pad on a 120ft yacht...lol It took a beating but held up fine to that bouncing Helo-landing.
Pulled out fillets with large 1in tool.

I want them beefy & aerodynamic.

DSCN5020.jpg DSCN5018.jpg


Sooo after all this s a n d i n g the results are in.

pointy to the front............ my little wrap around foils on rear!

DSCN5045.jpg DSCN5047.jpg

very pleased...will coat with high temp white for primer, then polish with wet 600. No filler/spot putty, after first coat, any imperfections will be sanded clean and epoxy added till smooth.. I don't want anything that can "cook" out.....just in case....:wink:
 
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Onebadhawk

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Man do you do some nice work Jim...
The only way I get a nice finish is with a super thin layer of glazing compound...
Gorgeous Jim...

Teddy
 

blackjack2564

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Same thing applies to the "pointy" end...i.e. sanding!

I will be utilizing the NC for dual-deploy to save space & it will be tight.
My sled for NC shoulder is 2.75 x 5.75 & on it goes a MissleWorks RRC3 + the Missleworks GPS [same footprint as altimeter] + Strato-logger CF for backup + 3 9volt batteries!

I measured & marked coupler for NC. It was ever-so slightly tight, but only on the NC side, airframe side was perfect. About 3-5 minutes of wet sanding with 600 solved that. Constant checking in-between. It is very easy to overland these and then you risk "grabbing / cocking" from loose fit. Now smooth a s silk.

Some high temp white and more 600 wet sand to fill low spots and show me imperfections needing fix.
My phenolic tip and harness with eyebolt installed & glued in.

DSCN5051.jpg

The black ring is just where the full body diameter, for coupler begins the Von Karmon shape to actual NC, & I hit it a bit hard with paper during sanding, going through edge. You really get a sense of the true shape though.

I am thoroughly sick of sanding for a good while.
 

blackjack2564

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Man do you do some nice work Jim...
The only way I get a nice finish is with a super thin layer of glazing compound...
Gorgeous Jim...

Teddy
Thanks,

Nope, not this time. Just several thin layers of epoxy [filled] till I got it,where I want it.
Just sanded epoxy to get my shape on fillets.
 

blackjack2564

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Well....couldn't resist dry fitting the full stack after all that nasty work.

So far [yes sustainer is done] weighs 4.65lb with chutes & cord no electronics yet.

Booster which is my SpaceCowboy 75 with tailcone 75-54 adapter and it's recovery gear 5.0lbs on the dot.

So that 9.65 for the stack & it's only a tad over 8ft tall

52in. for sustainer will hold 6xl 54
43in. for booster will hold 5grain 75
3in for interstage.

If all this works I can build another booster for 6xl casing's... but 1 step at a time!

Look like a couple of motor holders to me.

DSCN5030.jpg

So I'm only a tad taller than the typical 3in DD rocket----- with 2-stages, OH Yeah!:dark:
 

4kids49

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My sled for NC shoulder is 2.75 x 5.75 & on it goes a MissleWorks RRC3 + the Missleworks GPS [same footprint as altimeter] + Strato-logger CF for backup + 3 9volt batteries!
Awesome build as usual Jim. Have you been able to use the Missleworks GPS yet? Looking forward to that.
 

blackjack2564

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Awesome build as usual Jim. Have you been able to use the Missleworks GPS yet? Looking forward to that.
Yes Chris I did....at LDRS.
Jim Amos was there with the Alpha units. Got 2 flights in Friday & that was it, rained out for weekend as I'm sure ya know.

Had really great results with it, using the LCD [same one used with altimeter]hooked up to ground unit [GPS] Walks you right to rocket, through the screen, with compass heading, co-ordinates & actual distance to rocket.......all the way till ya find it.
In rocket the GPS was linked direct to RRC3 so we had live telemetry down link for entire flight. Streaming altitude, velocity & position during flight. Jim A flew again last weekend with another 2 flights and it's getting more & more "tweaks".

Must admit I'm new at this GPS stuff, first time I've used one, so it's a total learning curve for me. I like what I see so far.

Hope to fly it a couple times at Airfest in this, and other rockets.
 

JimJarvis50

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Did a little different this time, added a fairing compound [cabosil] which is an adhesive besides filler....along with colloidal silica to lighten it up Brutal to sand,but hopefully results are worth it.
I've always considered cabosil and colloidal silica to be one in the same. But I guess cabosil is a brand name that can mean more than one thing. What are you using?

Jim
 

4kids49

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Yes Chris I did....at LDRS.
Jim Amos was there with the Alpha units. Got 2 flights in Friday & that was it, rained out for weekend as I'm sure ya know.

Had really great results with it, using the LCD [same one used with altimeter]hooked up to ground unit [GPS] Walks you right to rocket, through the screen, with compass heading, co-ordinates & actual distance to rocket.......all the way till ya find it.
In rocket the GPS was linked direct to RRC3 so we had live telemetry down link for entire flight. Streaming altitude, velocity & position during flight. Jim A flew again last weekend with another 2 flights and it's getting more & more "tweaks".

Must admit I'm new at this GPS stuff, first time I've used one, so it's a total learning curve for me. I like what I see so far.

Hope to fly it a couple times at Airfest in this, and other rockets.
Nice. I'm pretty new to GPS also. I'm a bit low tech in that aspect. My 16 year old is an expert. What do I know. The simple thing for me to do is to add Missileworks gps to me Missileworks stuff and keep my ComSpec. Can't wait to see your flight report for this baby. I am currently building a Punisher and rebuilding a Space Cowboy from scratch. Gonna have some fun flights.
 

blackjack2564

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I've always considered cabosil and colloidal silica to be one in the same. But I guess cabosil is a brand name that can mean more than one thing. What are you using?

Jim

Well ya know, you could be right about the name....funny story here:

Back in the day, when I did high dollar yacht work, I was fairing out this hull & helo deck.
It required gallons & gallons of West and fillers, the surfaces were complex curves and required using a 3 man hand sanding device 12 ft long, so the entire curve could be sanded at the same time, smoothly & equally. Some things just can't be done with power tools.

It was a 12in wide, 3/4in thick, 12 ft long board covered on one side with 60 grit paper. The top had 3 handles spaced 3ft apart.
One man stood on left side of this contraption grabbing the middle handle and the other two on right side on each end.

We would lift it and do the 'ole 3 count, swing back and forth to get a rhythm going, then force the plank against the surface & sand the hell out of it till you had a smooth even surface, no high or low spots. Typical use was bow flair or curved decks, both aluminum & fiberglass hulls. Talk about back breaking work. This stuff is all a lost art now, but that's how ya got mirror finishes on million dollar yacht's.

Then mix a gallon or 2 at a time of epoxy and what we called "cabosil" which was West 404. [to us anyhow] fill low spots and repeat.
Also used it to repair cleats that had been yanked out of the hull during docking manuvers. Fill the ragged holes from ripped out screws & bond new ones right into it. The stuff dries and sands kinda like concrete if you over-do the mix. For vertical use we added colloidal silica to it, so it would not sag or drip, or even to extend the mix.[make it go further].

Well one day the new guy screwed up and added way to much 404. We figured it out after cure next day when the 3 man sander came out. Went from a nice surface that sanded fair, to an area the was like concrete & stopped, till we figured out what happened. You could hear & feel the difference.

Even the grinder barely dented removal so......

This was an aluminum hull. To remove the bad area ,I got out the torches to heat and scrape it out. I distinctly remember the difference between the over mixed and normal area. It took way more torch/heat to "loosen" the enriched 404 [cabosil?] area. Thinking back, I wonder if the filler dispersed or somehow insulated the heat. What ever was going on, it was definitely much harder to heat up & scrape out that stuff.

Don't know what brought those memories back,[this was summer of 1986] not to scientific, but definitely the 404 area was more heat resistant, & I knew how strong this stuff was for bonding, so I thought 'what the hell' I'll give it a whirl on this project.

So there you have it.

Here is what i used..... back then we had drums of resin and sacks of filler...LOL

404 on left/406 on right

DSCN5074.jpg

Notice the 404 weighs almost 1lb vs the 406 1.7 oz
404 is very dense, consistency about like flour, but mixes in nicely.

DSCN5076.jpg

I used around 60-70 % 404 - 30-40% 406 just like back in the good ole days....
It sand out nicely...if your used to dealing with it. It will wear out normal paper fast. I used 80 grit floor sanding paper first, then when close to where I wanted to be, couple coats of epoxy and wet sanded smooth.

Screen Shot 2015-07-16 at 11.29.38 PM.png

By the way, that yacht rented for 20,000.00 a day. Just to sit on it. To go out on the water it was another 10,000.00 or 30,000 a day to cover the 5 man crew,PLUS fuel.[fuel extra- but your 5 star chef & meals included]
I went with it to the Statue of Liberty re-opening in '86 in New York Harbor...we came in behind the Tall Ship Parade. It was 125 ft long complete with helicopter, jet water cycles [not skies] every toy and gadget imaginable.
Marble floors, leather walls. hot tubs & jacuzzi's in the state rooms. 24kt gold fixtures and sinks.
Boy those were the days...ummmm
That boat stayed leased & traveled all over the world for the following 5yrs before I lost track of it and my friends who worked on board.

So some tricks I used on that boat have come full circle to my rocket, who'd a thunk?
But then I've always been a "boat glue" guy....:wink: Like my buddy Nic who built his record breaking mach 3.6 project out of plain old "boat glue"
 
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