# Cirrus Dart level 1

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#### rocketman

##### Well-Known Member
I've been looking at this rocket : https://www.rocketstore.co.uk/shop/...artPosition=1&strSearchCriteria=any&PT_ID=all
and im thinking about doing a level 1 flight at some point. Is this a particulary bad rocket for level 1? I can't afford to buy that many different rockets, so whichever rocket i pick for level 1 will probably be my only high power rocket. This rocket gives me what i want : big altitude/high perfomance on a budget. What do you guys (and girls) think? Should I buy the cirrus and do a level one with it, or is it simply too advanced a rocket?:confused2:

EDIT: link is broken, try this one https://www.rocketstore.co.uk/shop/...History=cat&strKeywords=&SearchFor=&PT_ID=150

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#### larrykoskie

##### Well-Known Member
I used this model to test a radio tracking beacon. I flew in on an Aerotech I 435. A flight sim program said that it reached 1060 mph in 1.5 seconds. I wanted a flight that required me to use the tracking beacon to find it. Well this one disappeared real fast and yes I did recover it about a mile away. It flew to about 8000 feet. And the fins did stay on, but they were glassed on. I don't think that I would recommend it for a certification flight because it would be very easy to loose. I did my cert flight with the Phobos, much easier to find.

Larry

#### cjl

##### Well-Known Member
The cirrus dart is an excellent choice for high performance. You'll want to be careful though - it performs extremely well, and you'll need a tracker for more than about a G or small H motor (and even some H motors will get high enough to be difficult to track). I've flown mine to 12,000 feet with an I600, and it worked perfectly. Do you have a field large enough for this kind of performance though?

#### bobkrech

##### Well-Known Member
The Cirrur Dart is a very high performance rocket and will go very high, and out of sight, on many motors. It's not what you want for an L1 cert.

IMO the best rocket for an L1 cert is a simple 4" diameter 3FNC or 4FNC rocket that weighs 3 - 5 pounds empty. Use a high thrust H motor to get it up quick and straight to ~1200'-1500' and a 48" chute to bring it down slow. Do your cert on a day where the wind is 10 mph or less and you will succeed.

Bob

#### andytherocketeer

##### Well-Known Member
Cirrus Dart on an H motor would be impressive, but stands a chance of exceeding UK launch site ceiling, and/or never being seen again.
Yes they're very simple, but so are all PML kits at the L1 level. I'd suggest something like PML Phobos or Xcalibur which gives performance and an ability to fly it on smaller G motors too, or something like a 4inch Pterodactyl Jr with an H123/H242 or Cesaroni 2Grain motor.
Then fly the Cirrus Dart on an H when you have the Cert

#### Pantherjon

##### Well-Known Member
I would recommend an Aerotech Sumo..Mainly because I used one for my L1 cert flight, and that it is a short fat rocket and won't vanish from sight on an H128or even an H250MG!

Whether to cert on a high performance rocket is a perennial topic with lots of entrenched opinions. My own opinion is that you should certify on what you intend to fly. If your interest is in high performance rockets and you have the field for it, then by all means, build it carefully, ask questions, double-check everything, and fly it for your cert flight. I think it's better to have the extra scrutiny on the high performance rocket you'd like to fly eventually anyway, than to have everyone check out your low-performance kit, flying a baby H, and then fly something that pushes the performance boundaries with little/no oversight.

#### hardinlw

##### Well-Known Member
I did my L1 on a PML D Region Tomahawk which is almost Bob's formula for a simple cert rocket. It's 3" instead of 4" and has 4 fins instead of 3, but is still a very simple rocket. It has a payload bay, though I've never flown anything in mine. It occurs to me that if you simply attached the coupler into the payload airframe with the PML plastic rivits instead of epoxy, you would have the option at some future date of converting the coupler to an electronics bay and using dual-deployment. One of Adrian's little altimeters would be right at home inside a coupler.

#### Rocketjunkie

Whether to cert on a high performance rocket is a perennial topic with lots of entrenched opinions. My own opinion is that you should certify on what you intend to fly.
I don't agree here. The first thing to do is talk to the person who will witness the flight. They are the one who has to see the flight and determine if it meets the requirements. As a TAP, I like to see the whole flight and not have to guess whether the flight went as planned. If your certifying person is willing to witness a small rocket disappearing, THEN go for the performance. Otherwise, use a lightweight 3"-4" rocket for a low, slower flight.

#### rocketman

##### Well-Known Member
Whichever rocket i choose now will be my only high-power rocket, so I want the best rocket possible! I am only 13, so the money isn't exactly rolling in . So, aside from the cirrus, are there any other cheap, high-perfomance, easy(ish) to build kits that are o.k for level one?

Whichever rocket i choose now will be my only high-power rocket, so I want the best rocket possible! I am only 13, so the money isn't exactly rolling in . So, aside from the cirrus, are there any other cheap, high-perfomance, easy(ish) to build kits that are o.k for level one?
Doing a high-performance flight on a Cirrus Dart requires some sort of electronic deployment, since no available motor delays are long enough when you get to the larger 38mm motors. It will also definitely go out of sight, so a radio tracker would be strongly encouraged if not mandatory. Also in the nearly-mandatory category is dual deployment, unless you have a 2+mile radius field for recovery. So a high performance flight on a Cirrus Dart is both expensive and relatively difficult. I wouldn't recommend certifying on it unless you have first flown it on a motor which will keep it in sight (F or G), to test out the entire recovery system (tracker, electronic deployment, etc) that you would use for an out-of-sight flight, and even then, I agree with RocketJunkie that your TAP would have to buy off on that plan, and should witness the test flight.

#### cjl

##### Well-Known Member
Doing a high-performance flight on a Cirrus Dart requires some sort of electronic deployment, since no available motor delays are long enough when you get to the larger 38mm motors. It will also definitely go out of sight, so a radio tracker would be strongly encouraged if not mandatory. Also in the nearly-mandatory category is dual deployment, unless you have a 2+mile radius field for recovery. So a high performance flight on a Cirrus Dart is both expensive and relatively difficult. I wouldn't recommend certifying on it unless you have first flown it on a motor which will keep it in sight (F or G), to test out the entire recovery system (tracker, electronic deployment, etc) that you would use for an out-of-sight flight, and even then, I agree with RocketJunkie that your TAP would have to buy off on that plan, and should witness the test flight.
I absolutely agree here. The Cirrus can be flown single deployment to high altitudes (my flight falls in this category - I used an AT EFC for deployment), but it floats for quite a while if you do this, and you may have a very long walk for recovery. A tracker is 100% required for any hope whatsoever of recovery. Certification with it can be done, and I've seen someone certify on a Cirrus before, but it is definitely not the easiest way to go about it. If you want a fairly high altitude rocket, many kits exist that aren't quite as extreme, but are still capable of high flights. The Wildman Junior is a good example of this - it can fly to perfectly reasonable altitudes on smaller H and G motors, while still being capable of well over a mile on the larger motors that fit (up into the I and J class).

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#### SteelyEyed

##### Well-Known Member
I would recommend an Aerotech Sumo..Mainly because I used one for my L1 cert flight, and that it is a short fat rocket and won't vanish from sight on an H128or even an H250MG!
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#### cherokeej

##### Well-Known Member
Whichever rocket i choose now will be my only high-power rocket, so I want the best rocket possible! I am only 13, so the money isn't exactly rolling in . So, aside from the cirrus, are there any other cheap, high-perfomance, easy(ish) to build kits that are o.k for level one?
Son, unless you're planning on flying at Black Rock, you might want to consider something like a Phobos or an Excaliber with a 38mm motor mount (phenolic a/f, I don't care for the Quantum tubing.) It'll get you a signature on your L1 paperwork with a small H motor, and it will perform well with larger, 38mm I motors. It won't set any altitude records.

With limited financial resources such as your's, consider the cost of the loss of a Cirrus and the motor casing. In your case, a $700 RDF set-up is out, as is a$1000 GPS telemetry system. A Cirrus on a small H motor will go high. Very high. Without a radio, you may never see it again.

Get the signature going low and slow. Save the moon shots for later, when you can afford them.

James
L3CC

#### andytherocketeer

##### Well-Known Member
I think the OP is based in the UK? In which case, UKRA membership required, and a Level 1 Cert is possible under identical rules to flyers over 18yo, so long as the flyer can legally obtain and use the motor (and any other pyrotechnic devices required).

#### monkey_bolt

##### Active Member
Hi,

As you are tight on the cash front (as was I when I did my L1) look at the LOC Caliber ISP. I finally chose this one because:-

- Accepts a huge range of motors, build it light enough and it can fly on an F (It flys well on the CTI 1 grain G motors, <1000ft and this helps keep the cost down and is also good if on a small/low alt field). As it has the 54mm motor mount it can also fly on a J (for your L2, believe me you will want to do this once you pass your L1).

Simple to build, can easily be converted to dual deploy with a length of coupler.

I usually fly at the EARS site in Cambridge when work permits, loads of friendly faces and many people happy to help you out.

Just my thought,

Cheers

Mike

#### rocketman

##### Well-Known Member
Thanks all *saves up for PML Callisto*

#### r1dermon

##### Well-Known Member
i'd buy the cirrus and just fly it on F's until you can afford to make a moon shot. build it so it will fly on an H or I, but just fly it on F's and G's. lvl 1 is pretty expensive once you take the leap...L2 is quite a bit more expensive...but mpr is reasonable if you're flying 6 or so times a year. makes your cash last longer. more flights for your dollar.

#### sylvie369

##### Well-Known Member
Thanks all *saves up for PML Callisto*
Hmm. The Callisto is a 2.1" diameter rocket, with a 29mm motor mount. PML estimates 2700' with a fairly small H motor (H128). You can fly it on G and even F motors, which would be nice, But putting a rocket that small to over 2500' means that there's a fair chance you'll lose it unless you use a tracker, especially as you're planning on opening your parachute at that height.

A somewhat larger diameter rocket would give you a lot less chance at loss. The PML Black Brant Vb is only \$20 more than the Callisto, and will still fly fine on G motors (I've done it a lot), and will be much easier to recover if you fly it on an H. LOC has some less expensive 2.5", 3", and 4" kits, if money is that much of an object (and if it is, how are you going to afford motors?).

The Callisto would be a fine choice for flying on F and G motors, and I'm not saying that you _will_ lose it on H motors. But I think you'd have a lot more fun flying a slightly larger rocket that you didn't have to worry so much about recovering. 2700' is pretty danged high for a small rocket, and it's pretty danged high for main parachute deployment.

"High performance" isn't what it's made out to be. You push the button and your rocket disappears, and you pack up your stuff and start searching. If you don't have an altimeter in it, you don't even get to brag about how high you went. If there are any trees or lakes in the area, you'll be fishing the rocket out of them. That's fun? Not in my book.

If this is going to be your only high power rocket, I'd think seriously about getting one that you can find and fly over and over again, and that means a larger diameter. Personally, I'd pick a 3" or 4" diameter rocket, ideally weighing 3-5 lbs (as Bob suggested). If you build with a 38mm motor mount you'll have a rocket you can put up to 2700' later if you want, and still get the thing back to try again.

#### rocketman

##### Well-Known Member
Thanks for the advice. A rocket the size of me would look cooler than a small one too!

#### Handeman

TRF Supporter
I've had a Callisto for six years now. The first four years I flew it on F & G motors only. Once I got my L1 two years ago, It started seeing H motors. I've had no problems with getting it back after H flights. In fact, it came with a 24" chute that has a 3" spill hole. I usually fly it with a 24" chute with no spill hole. You just have to be smart about wind and weather conditions. Don't fly high in strong winds. That applies to everything, not just the Callisto.

BTW, the Callisto is now available in 38mm MMT. I would highly recommend it. Wish mine had it. You can still fly all the 29mm motors with an adapter, but the 38mm just opens up a whole range of possiblities. I just flew my first H123W this weekend and that would be a great motor in the Callisto.

#### Silverfish

##### Well-Known Member
Hi rocketman ,

Well, I never thought I'd see another teenager from the UK on here, but you proved me wrong

I haven't really thought about do a Level 1 cert yet, but one rocket that I did notice was the Madcow 4" Cowabunga (https://www.rocketstore.co.uk/shop/...geHistory=man&strKeywords=&SearchFor=&PT_ID=0), which would fly nicely on a 38mm H motor, and looks nice and simple to build (as long as you don't mind 3FNC rockets :S). Like I said, however, I don't have much experience with HPR, so I may be wrong...

Silverfish

#### rocketman

##### Well-Known Member
Hi rocketman ,

Well, I never thought I'd see another teenager from the UK on here, but you proved me wrong

Silverfish
Thanks for the suggestion silverfish!
Good to know I'm not the only teenager on here (that's lemonade in those glasses >_>)