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Rocketmaniac

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If one were wanted to learn more about propellants, their characteristics and the relation between components; would organic or inorganic chemistry be the field of study?
 
Good question. I could be wrong,

but AP is inorganic (does not contain carbon)

BP is organic

sugar motors are organic

My guess is you would need some background in both.

Please correct me if any of this is wrong.
 
Originally posted by seo

but AP is inorganic (does not contain carbon)

Yes, however the fuel for AP is organic. The oxidizers used in common rocket propellants are inorganic, but the fuel is almost always organic.
 
Originally posted by solrules
Yes, however the fuel for AP is organic. The oxidizers used in common rocket propellants are inorganic, but the fuel is almost always organic.

Thanks, I thought I might be wrong about that. So Ammonium perchlorate is the oxidizer, what is the fuel in the composite engines?

I would still imagine that inorganic (specifically physical chemistry) would have some use in developing propellants.
 
Originally posted by Rocketmaniac
If one were wanted to learn more about propellants, their characteristics and the relation between components; would organic or inorganic chemistry be the field of study?

Physical chemistry. It's the nuts & bolts of all the others. Without this, the others are abstract ideas. With this, you can figure the others out for yourself if need be.

The energy in the electrons at different orbitals relate to the amount of energy they contribute to a bond, whether making or breaking. That energy is where the energy for thrust comes from. It's the *only* place energy comes from, or else you're not studying chemistry anymore.

My first wife took organic and inorganic as part of her pharmacist training. It took her 4 semesters to do 3 semesters of classes. Afterwards she could use it and quote it, but it was like a Monty Python fan reciting a sketch.

I took physical chemistry. With that I could follow both her classes despite not attending and was able to explain things to her that weren't getting explained in class. They didn;t care if it remained abstract. I can't STAND trying to understand from abstract material.

Except from what I picked up from her classes that physical chemistry class was all the training I had. Still, my dissertation was so heavy with neurochemistry that I had a professor from the chemistry department on my committee. He found no fault with any of the stuff I'd figured out.

Organic and inorganic are the engineering fields of chemistry.
Physical is Mechanics and Thermodynamics 101.
 
What about quantum mechanics? I'm nearing the point of learning in depth physics and mechanics (as well as inorganic and organic chemistry), and am confused about this field of study.
 
You'd probably want to study both.
Oxidizers are inorganic (usually, I understand there are polymers that are oxidizing or combustion self-sustaining).
Composite propellant binders are organic, being polymers.

So, the inorganic chemistry to understand thing slike the breaking down of oxidizers etc, and the organic to understand polymer chemistry, the nature of binder decomposition etc.

I would've though that if you had to choose from one field of study, that organic chemistry would be more useful. Many of the concepts in it carry over nicely to inorganics too.
 
I don't know if you're looking for a single class or for a course of study, but aerospace and mechanical engineering curricula typically have courses in combustion. At the graduate level you can specialize in this area. I had a graduate course in combustion that used two books that you can look up on Amazon:

Ken Kuo's Principals of Combustion

and Roger Strehlow's Combustion Fundamentals
 
As a chemist, you have to learn about both organic and inorganic chemistry. Rocket propellants contain both organic and inorganic components, but in all cases, one component is a fuel and the other is an oxidizer.

Propulsion is all about energy and the rates of energy release: Thermodynamics and kinetics. That's one main branch of physical chemistry.

I went into physical chemistry as an undergraduate doing full time research, and studied the kinetics of advanced liquid rocket propellants using energetic halogen oxidizers for the Navy in the early '70s. The Navy lost interest in this area in the mid-'70s, however these same chemical propellant systems were used in the high power chemical lasers developed in the late '70s and throughout the '80s, so the Navy paid me to continue my work in graduate school. since then I have been gainfully employed working in a small R&D company on a bunch of interesting problem that have included a number of advanced propulsion concept development programs, space research, high power laser development and utilization research, and high power laser material interaction studies. I've got to fly stuff on the shuttle, and have worked on programs that built instruments that have gone into orbit and/or deep space, and on ISS.

Today there's not great demand for physical chemists, however since you get to know a lot about chemistry, physics, mathematics, materials and egineering, you can always find problems that folks are willing to pay you to solve if you are creative and flexible. At least it's worked for me and paid my bills over the last 33 years.

Better living through chemisty.

BTW - The primary fuel in a APCP composite motor is actually inorganic aluminum. That's not to say that the binders that glue everything together don't burn, they do, but most of the heat is generated in the production of molten alumina, Al2O3. The Ammonium Pperchlorate, NH4ClO4, provides the oxygen, and the Hydrogen which makes up much of the hot propellant gas that provides the thrust.

If you were to burn 100 grams of the standard APCP SRM propellant, you would generate ~ 1 mole of H2, ~0.8 mole of CO, ~ 0.6 mole of HCl, ~0.6 mole of H2O, ~ 0.3 mole of N2, and ~ 0.3 mole of Al2O3 (liquid) and ~0.1 mole of CO2. Without the hot gases you get no thrust.

Bob Krech
 
Originally posted by pr_rocket04
What about quantum mechanics? I'm nearing the point of learning in depth physics and mechanics (as well as inorganic and organic chemistry), and am confused about this field of study.

QM is abstract in the other direction. It is nothing BUT abstract. Excellent predictability and replicability don't change that. It'd tell you how to derive the results of physical chemistry, but not *why*.

Many physicists would disagree. Feynman would agree.
Who ya gonna call?
QED Busters.

Now, that's as far as applicability to rocket stuff. In and of itself, it's fascinating.

"Is an electron a particle? No.
Is it a wave? No.
Is it both? No.
Is it neither? No."
-- Neils Bohr

Yet they flow through the wires and the lights stay on. Amazing.
 
Originally posted by illini
I don't know if you're looking for a single class or for a course of study[/URL]

I'm looking to expand my knowledge in general and help get a better understanding about making propellant, ie EX motors. I want to know what is going on when you combine all separate components.......
 
Originally posted by DynaSoar

Organic and inorganic are the engineering fields of chemistry.
Physical is Mechanics and Thermodynamics 101.

I had to take Chem 1,2, and 3 ; Analytical 1 and 2; Organic 1 and 2 ; and P-Chem 1 and 2 in order to get my Chem. Eng. BS.

P-chem was the last of the chemistry we took. It was extremely similar to the chemical engineering thermodynamic courses.
 
rocketmaniac. so what is it that you want to know about? a solid propellent contains an oxidiser and a fuel. now, composite propellents and such contain binders and stabalizers...etc...but basically a propellent is an oxidiser and fuel. for the fuel to burn more efficiently, it needs oxygen. take a log, light it on fire...it burns pretty good....now, smother it, with a container. once it uses all the oxygen up, it can no longer burn. however. take the log, and while on fire, blow air onto it. with the added oxygen, it burns more vigorously. its basically the same in a propellent. you have the oxidiser, which in most solid rocket motors is AP (NH4ClO4). with the addition of a fuel, which is usually aluminum or Mg powder, when burned, the fuel basically feeds off of the oxygen in the oxidiser and speeds up the "burning" process. thats, on a very basic level, what happens when a propellent, wether it be black powder, flash powder, composite rocket propellent...etc..., ignites.

if any of you science degree people can find something strikingly wrong, im open to criticism, just dont flame me. this is a very basic example of what, to my knowledge, the process entails.
 
Rocketmaniac

From you first post, I though you were looking for career advice, but your second post makes it clear that you are looking for EX information.

The web is a great place to look for information on just about anything, but sometimes it is difficult to evaluate how the information is.

A very good place to start looking for correct information about the chemistry of propulsion is Richard Nakka's website. Richard has done a great job explaining the do's and don't on sugar motors, and where to get further information. If you really understand the material on his website, you're well on you way to understaniding propulsion.

His massive website is well indexed and available on CD if your conection is slow. He also has a great set of links to other reference sites.

https://www.nakka-rocketry.net/

NASA has done a lot of work that can be downloaded. He lists this link and there are several good solid motor references here.

Check out https://www.nakka-rocketry.net/sp8000.html

The industry wide computer program to evaluate propellant systems is propec. Developed over 30 years and paid for by Uncle Sam, it's what all the big boys use to evaluate their propellants.

https://members.aol.com/ricnakk/th_prope.html

Thje Apogee Education site also has a great many links to NASA, the aerospace manufacturers, and other useful sites.

https://www.apogeerockets.com/education/index.asp

Also check out this google search

https://www.google.com/search?sourc...D,GGLD:2003-40,GGLD:en&q=propulsion+chemistry

If you put in the time, you'll learn a lot.

Happy Surfing.

Bob Krech
 
Originally posted by seo
I had to take Chem 1,2, and 3 ; Analytical 1 and 2; Organic 1 and 2 ; and P-Chem 1 and 2 in order to get my Chem. Eng. BS.

P-chem was the last of the chemistry we took. It was extremely similar to the chemical engineering thermodynamic courses.

It's a shame they made you have to take it that way.
Same with calculus. You have to take algebra, geometry, trig and analytical geometry first. Then they teach you something lots easier that's more useful and makes more sense.
 
Propellant Chemistry.

Everything you need to know, organic or inorganic is specific to propellants and implementations that have been tested and work trump all.

Applied chemistry.

Jerry

Theory, in this case is unhelpful.
 
Originally posted by bobkrech
but your second post makes it clear that you are looking for EX information.

A very good place to start looking for correct information about the chemistry of propulsion is Richard Nakka's website.

Yea, I was trying to word my question / thread just right to answer my questions, but yet not over-step the EX guidelines here on TRF.

I have already found Mr. Nakka's website and I am in the process of reading it. But some of other links you posted are totally new. I have downloaded the GUIPEP program, but I am having a little trouble getting it to run on my Win 2000 Pro (I'm about ready to trash 2000 Pro and buy XP).

I have also ordered two Chemistry textbooks. (Used from Amizon) I received the first one Friday and started reading the first few pages. It deals with the organic side of chemistry. This book is what made me start this thread. After the few pages or so, I started to wonder if I had gotten the wrong sub-field of chemistry.
 
Originally posted by teflonrocketry1
There are commercial computer programs that can help you design motors and even help evalluate propellant properties visit AeroRocket at:

https://www.aerorocket.com/AeroIsp/AeroIsp.html
https://www.aerorocket.com/MOC/MOC.html
https://www.aerorocket.com/Nozzle/Nozzle.html

I own other AeroRocket programs and think they are among the best available!

Bruce, if you don't mind me asking..... What do programs like these cost?

Originally posted by teflonrocketry1
As a professional chemist I choose to buy my own motors (although I could easily make them) and keep myself safe!

And I always thought you were a professional Rocksim designer!!!

I want to get into EX more for two reasons. One, it is cheaper and it will allow me to burn more AP for the same amount of money. And two, I'm like a kid asking their parent, How does " " work......
 
For the AeroRocket price list visit:

https://www.aerorocket.com/products/products.html

I also recomend the AeroRocket's Rocket Motor Test Stand (RMTS) plans. I intend to build one of these stands to generate more accurate thrust curves to use in model rocket flight simulations.

I do not condone your motor making activities, it is up to you to keep yourself and everyone else and their property safe, while you manufacture/test your own motors and propellants. That said, if you must experiment in this potentially dangerous activity, I suggest you keep things small, try to keep the motors under 20 grams of propellant; less is better! Don't workwith large quantities of hazardous chemicals, and plan for catostrophic failures. Scale up very carefully, one test doesn't make for a safe motor.

Good luck,

Bruce S. Levison, NAR #69055
 
Bruce

That looks like a good test stand mechanically, however DATAQ has greatly expanded their product line, so the specific data acquisition recommendations in the plans might be outdated.

Check out https://www.dataq.com/ for the latest product and pricing info.

The load cell selections will depend on the size of the motors. Bob Fortune of https://www.aeroconsystems.com/ has a variety of load cells, amplifiers, and electronics packages for sale at good prices. It's also worth checking out https://www.aeroconsystems.com/ts_pics/ts_pics.htm to see other folks test stands.

Rocketmaniac

You said

I want to get into EX more for two reasons. One, it is cheaper and it will allow me to burn more AP for the same amount of money.....
I agree with Bruce and don't condone most EX activities. I know many EX folks will disagree with our opinion, but it's not cheaper to do EX APCP than it is to buy commercial APCP motors, at least if you do it safely. The knowledgable EXers know this, but many EXers cut corners and depend on luck to keep their finger and toes attached. The cost of the AP and other raw chemicals in a motor is at most 20% of the retail price of the motor. What you are not factoring in is the cost of the equipment required to safely mix and compound the propellant and process it into a finished propellant grain. A finished APCP fuel grain is pretty safe, however certain steps in the manufacturing process are quite hazardous. That's where the substantial investment is, at least if you want to make commercial quality APCP motors safely.

The professional hobby rocket motor industry developed NFPA 1125 which lists the minimum requirements for safe propellant manufacturing practices. Few EXers manufacture their propellants in this manner. Is it because they know more than the experts? I don't think so. It's just the opposite. They simply don't believe that making propellants is hazzardous. All of the big boys have had accidents, and in principle, they took all reasonable efforts to prevent the accident. In my opinion as a professional chemist and as an emergency HazMat responder, it's a bit cavalier for the EX community to do what they do the way they do it.

Propellant chemicals start out as finely powdered metals and oxidizers. Handling fine powders represent a potential fire/explosive hazzard simply due to the very high surface area to volume ratio, and represents an inhalation hazzard as well. All it takes is a spark from static electricity to set a dust explosion. (Even common everyday powders can and do expode. Ever hear of a grain elevator or flour explosion? This does happen with some regularity in agricultural areas. It's rather impressive to see the residual powder in a coffee can going off.)

It also difficult to these chemicals as fine powders. Since they have large surface areas, they naturally absorb humidity (water) from the air. Water is detrimental to the formulation and compounding of the propellant grain. It causes clumping, polymerization problems and voids in the propellant grain. The main problem with the early Ellis manufactured AeroTech propellant grains was the lack of environmental controls in the manufacturing process which are necessitated by the high humidity conditions in Texas. A lot of those motors CATOed destroying casings and rockets.

The additives, plastizers, polymerizing agents and rubber monomers used in APCP motors include some rather nasty chemicals and present a chemical hazzard. Most EXers are probably unaware of the long-term hazzards associated with some of these chemicals, and don't use the right personal protection equipment.

You may also have to core the grain, or slot it, or cut it to length. These operations can be dangerous and can result in a fire or explosion if not done properly, particularly if waste propellant shaving are present. It was the improper operation of a finishing machine that caused the AeroTech fire.

Manufacturing of propellants should be conducted in a separate isolated building that insures the safey of the general public. All equipment should be grounded and explosion proof where required, not simply the household variety of mixers, etc. The facility should be well ventilated and very clean. You also have to have all the personal protection equipment such as dust masks, gloves, face shields, etc, and a clear way out of the building. The one item you don't need or want is a fire extinguisher. You don't try to fight a propellnt fire, you get out immediately.

Fine powders need to be kept dry. This means several vacuum ovens and/or dessicator. All polymers should be degassed to reduce the probability of voids in the fuel grain. You need lots of other rather expensive equipment and a test stand.... I could go on, but it's time to eat dinner.

The bottom line is that you need to spend many thousands to tens of thousand of dollars to make commercial quality APCP rocket motors safely. I doubt, that most EXers are willing to make that kind of financial committment. Although the probability of an accident is not very high if reasonable precautions are taken, the personal cost can be very high if you or your family or friends are injured or killed by an accident. Each individual has to determine for themselves if it's worth it.

Bob Krech
 
I was going to chime in, however Bob K. said it best. That said, I do want to stress that there are some darn fine experimenters out there. If you are serious about EX, be serious about it. As Bruce said, start small and work your way up. Attend EX launches and learn from those who have already blown up a rocket or ten.

One suggestion would be to see if you can attend Jeff Taylor's (Loki Reseach) propellant class.

If cost is your sole driving factor, consider hybrids. Hard core EX fans don't seem to do it for cost savings. They want to see what happens when you change motor chemistry and geometry. I know EdwardW is a serious EX fan as is DPATELL. Start a dialog with them.

If you are going to do EX, be ready for a steep and probably expensive learning curve.

A
 
Originally posted by Hospital_Rocket
I was going to chime in, however Bob K. said it best. That said, I do want to stress that there are some darn fine experimenters out there. If you are serious about EX, be serious about it. As Bruce said, start small and work your way up. Attend EX launches and learn from those who have already blown up a rocket or ten.

One suggestion would be to see if you can attend Jeff Taylor's (Loki Reseach) propellant class.

If cost is your sole driving factor, consider hybrids. Hard core EX fans don't seem to do it for cost savings. They want to see what happens when you change motor chemistry and geometry. I know EdwardW is a serious EX fan as is DPATELL. Start a dialog with them.

If you are going to do EX, be ready for a steep and probably expensive learning curve.

A

I'll chime in along with both of you: most EX isn't.
Very few people who make their own fuel/motors do much more than just that. It's not experimental anything, it's simply home made. Nothing wrong with that in and of itself, but calling it "experimental" as about as accurate as Microsoft trying to call people who took certain software classes of theirs "Microsoft engineers". Those people who actually design and test and measure and refine, St. Stine bless 'em, they've at least got the possibility of finding something of use to others. But that's a far cry from following a cookbook and saving some money.

No matter which or what anyone does, anyone considering it PLEASE make safety your number 1, 2 and 3 concerns. We've seen how the media reacts to mention of a fire in which some rocket motors happened to burn. Starting a fire with home made motors is PR we don't need.
 
Originally posted by Dynasoar
about as accurate as Microsoft trying to call people who took certain software classes of theirs "Microsoft engineers".

Oh....

Don't start me down that path.

I am so tired of:

Novell Certified Network Engineer
Microsoft Certified Systems Engineer
Cisco Certified Internetworking Engineer

Pah

These are fancy names for technologists. Granted, some are very skilled and knowledgeable professionals. However few practice the dark arts of turning theory into reality - That's what (IMNSHO) an Engineer does.

Get an Engineering degree or at least demonstrate the practice of Engineering techniques before you claim the title of Engineer.
 
Originally posted by Hospital_Rocket
If you are going to do EX, be ready for a steep and probably expensive learning curve.

Yes, there is a steep learning curve with EX if you are stepping out from a formula to your own mixes. Also, if you plan on doing a lot of it yourself, there is a large initial investment. After getting the GSE for my hybrid, tanks, two different stand designs, and all associated equiment I could have bought a commercial M motor probably. But I don't look at the cost standpoint as much as I do the science. Trying new formulas, comparing, seeing how to improve it. That is EX to me. And our new test site's landowner has a really heavy engineering background she has introduced me into a larger realm of engineering. Her brother is a propulsion engineer for Thiokol and it is great talking to him and learning. Also, another comment I would have it do the math and don't take shortcuts. No "it'll do" or "should work" attitudes. Do the math and make sure your casing is safe and everything is sound. When designing a motor it is best to start low and work higher - if you start high and pop the case you will never know how off you were. Also, simulator programs are great but sitting down and doing the equations gives you a much better grasp of what is going on and how to change it for the next iteration. Just my two cents.


Edward
 
Yeah, EX won't save you money.
If you are doing sugar propellants, or hybrids maybe ...
But otherwise, no.
I've spent hundreds on chemicals, sieves, drying equipment, scales, various dowels, etc etc, you know the story.
The initial startup cost is very high too.

Now that i've got all the nessacery equipment, sure, I can make $10NZD (so say $5USD) H-motors etc, which sell here in NZ for about $60-80 for an equivalent impulse motor. But, i've got to test it before I fly it as well.
But, i'm still not saving money because i'm flying/testing more than I would if I wasn't doing EX. And i'm always wanting to try new formulations, leading me to static test to excess, wasting (well, not really :) ) heaps of money.

Oh, by the way, developing your own propellant really isn't that hard. I still have my first EX casing (a 38mm Purple Woody 3-grain) ... and i'm still using it today. Apart from a few scratches, it's in excellent condition. It's had sugar, AP/Silicone (which was developed right from scratch, it's an almost unused binder) and AP/Polyurethane (no, not HTPB, you can't get it in NZ... another scratch development).
So, with the exception of sugar, all propellants have been our own mixes.

("Our" being New Zealand Experimental, by the way :) )

I agree with Edward though. I'm in this for the science. It feels good to know.
And the application of the science is so very satisfying.

Cookbook motors IMHO is not EX.
 
bobkrech posted a very well written summary of many aspects of EX (thank you, Bob!)
He very carefully avoided any mention of one negative aspect of EX----I refer to the macho, gonzo, "I don't know and I don't hafta know!!!" attitude.
I don't mean to say that all EX-ers are this way, I know a few and they pretty much do *not* behave that way. But from what many of these guys post on the internet I do often see a significant disregard for safety in propellant preparation, motor construction, and operation of the rocket.
All it is going to take is one or two instances of one of these guys blowing up his garage/neighborhood, and together with the excessive conservatism of the homeland security idiots, the hobby of EX will be gone.

Bob, do you happen to know what the required safe distance is between a motor production facility and the nearest inhabited building?
 
Powderburner

These are the separation distances lsted in NFPA 1125.

NFPA 1125 4.6.1

The minimum separation distance of a process building to public accessway or an inhabited building is 200 ft. for 400 pounds or less of propellants.

NFPA 1125 4.6.2

The minimum separation between process buildings is 30 ft. for 100 pounds of propellants.

NFPA 1125 6.1.2

The minimum magazine separation from public accessway or an inhabited building is 75 ft. for 0-1000 pounds of propellants.

Bob Krech
 
so then what would you call a "cookbook" motor if not experimental? most "cookbooks" give you the propellent formula, but no case. so the boundaries are endless as far as core size, casing length...overall impulse can be extremely influenced. im not trying to defend "cookbook" propellents, im just posing the question. if its not experimental, then what is it?
 
Originally posted by Hospital_Rocket
Oh....

Don't start me down that path.

I am so tired of:

Novell Certified Network Engineer
Microsoft Certified Systems Engineer
Cisco Certified Internetworking Engineer

Pah

These are fancy names for technologists. Granted, some are very skilled and knowledgeable professionals. However few practice the dark arts of turning theory into reality - That's what (IMNSHO) an Engineer does.

Get an Engineering degree or at least demonstrate the practice of Engineering techniques before you claim the title of Engineer.

Yep, there is a general lack of understanding in the public mind between engineers and mechanics. i.e. there is no difference.

An engineer must be the one of the most lowly regarded professions because of this lack of differentiation.

This comes from personal experience - my degree was in engineering, however my career is not. Many people seem to think my training is as a mechanic and I can fix their car. Career wise it can be worse - I work in IT (mainframe programming) - they then think I know all about PCs and can fix a dead PC or want to know something about a bit of 10 year old software that must have sold at least 2 copies that you have never heard of. When they find out you can't help they think you are pretty useless and know nothing. You can't win!!!
 
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