rocketguy101
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Joe Barnard posted a good overview of rocket CFD CFD is Better Than a Wind Tunnel I wonder what package he is using?
Literally just saw that, probably open foam. (@JoeBarnard)Joe Barnard posted a good overview of rocket CFD CFD is Better Than a Wind Tunnel I wonder what package he is using?
Joe Barnard posted a good overview of rocket CFD CFD is Better Than a Wind Tunnel I wonder what package he is using?
Ondsel engineering suite is a game changer as well. One of the devs for freecad created a business around freecad so he pays his employees to make code for freecad and then pipes it into new releases of freecad as well as ondsel.I started looking for an OpenFOAM UI freeware a few months ago. FreeCAD with the CfdOF workbench seemed ideal. Coincidently, David Carter made a nice presentation at NARCON 2024 2 weeks ago on this very software.
I built up a simple test case of the Estes Fatboy design using the parametric Rocket workbench in FreeCAD plus a rear bulkhead to seal the fin can. Super easy.
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From, there I built out a simulation with CfdOF. The seamless integration is fabulous!
There is a nice set of robust meshing and simulation options. I ran through about 20 mesh design iterations until I got something I liked. Meshing took about 1 minute on my Windows PC. 1-2 mm resolution on the rocket including boundary layers. The domain area is large enough such that blockage is less than 1%. Total cell count is about 2 million.
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For the solver, I started out simple with steady, incompressible, turbulent RANS. I think this is a good model up to Mach 0.3. The solver took about 3 hours on 1 core. I couldn't get the MPI version working, but when I do, the solve time should drop to about 30 min on 8 cores. Here is the nice steady state convergence of forces. The drag results make sense.
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Some flow images. The isosurface of total pressure = 0 shows the base wake as well as some flow loss off the square edges of the fins.
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This is a game changer for hobbyists! Granted, I have a background in CFD, so the setup and analysis was very intuitive. Still, the workbenches in FreeCAD make it very easy. If you can CAD it, you can simulate it in minutes. Make design changes and everything in the workflow updates automatically. With some development of the CFD best practices and templates, I see this replacing Barrowman, RockSim, and OpenRocket for accurate aero analysis of any shape.
More to come in another post where I use this CFD model for center of pressure analysis.
thats gonna be a challenge, even simscale is tough for beginners. I think the best bet is a very fast and straight forward tutorial with no tangents. That is what i like about the free version of simscale and their tutorials... right to the point. Its not snowballing you with data in ONE video. For example, sim scale has 3 major tutorials you go through when you first start. then you can try an advanced one such as flow over a wing.Just stumbled across this thread. I'm the guy who gave the talk at vNARCON, but I'm far from a CfD expert. My goal was to make people aware that it was there so that they could play with it. I'd say that was a success!
I do want to make this process easier in terms of workflow. CfDOF is a great add on for the generic case, but I want a workflow that will allow a beginner user to do some meaningful analysis of their rockets, from mesh generation to analysis. In particular, no one should have to learn paraview to see some basic results. But I know enough to be dangerous and not enough to know if I'm doing it right. So I'm looking for some help.
What I need is a "consultant" who can help with the CfD part. I can do the coding although you're welcome to help with that if you have the expertise. If you're interested in helping send me a note!
Great thread @Buckeye! Glad to see this discussion!
A couple notes on this:"CFD is better than a wind tunnel."
I can help.A couple notes on this:
1). How does one define "better"? If its accessibility to the average person then yeah it can be better. If it's accuracy then definitely not. Proper meshing and setting of boundary conditions in CFD is critical for solutions to provide useful data and not just imaginary numbers, and usually in industry the CFD is used for design work and wind tunnel tests are performed for validation of the CFD.
2). The video Joe posted suggested every single different condition required turning the tunnel off and reconfiguring the model. In actual wind tunnel tests the models are normally attached to a movable sting which can sweep through the various angles of attack and sideslip, and many models will have actual control of any control surfaces which would allow for changing fin/elevon/rudder/aileron/flap/slat positions without leaving the tunnel. Also generally it's sufficient to just match flow similarity parameters (Mach and Reynolds number) rather than simulating different flying altitudes.
3. Wind tunnels can be extremely expensive to run, there is no doubt about that, but the amount of data that can be collected in a relatively short amount of time is enormous. When I worked in wind tunnels we used both CFD and actual test data. Usually we could get CFD to align with actual test data to within the uncertainty of our measurements, but sometimes there were weird flow features that CFD just wasn't able to adequately capture. Additionally, data that would take months on our computing clusters to model in CFD, we could collect in a single shift with the actual wind tunnel. Literally hundreds of various sweeps could be run in a day, with each containing hundreds of individual data points like forces and moments and surface pressures and temperatures, etc.
CFD is a tool and wind tunnels are tools as well. When used together (CFD for diagnostics, wind tunnel data for model validation) you can have a really good idea of what is going on but CFD will not be able to outright replace wind tunnels for the foreseeable future.
There are some tricks for dealing with scaling in wind tunnels where you can use a much smaller tunnel and scale model of the rocket. For rockets that remain below Mach 0.3 it's probably sufficient to treat the drag coefficient as a constant (so changing windspeed doesn't really change the drag coefficient, only the total forces/moments, and a small low speed tunnel would give reasonable data). Since turbulence is a function of Reynolds number you can add bumps to the surface of the model at a set distance from the leading edges of fins and the tip of the nosecone to force turbulent transition early on and simulate drag for a much larger model, usually some kind of grit. This can be as simple as just gluing coarse sand in a ring around the nose and in lines parallel to the fin leading edges. Form/pressure drag doesn't really care about the scale of the model, and turbulence really only affects drag while lift and pitching moment are driven predominantly by pressure.I can help.
At my school, the wind tunnel is ghetto as hell. Max speed is 20mph and can only hold a small 6 inch model rocket. So size of the chamber and max wind speed determines how good a wind tunnel is. I mean, i wish our school had the budget for a wind tunnel that could hold a 10 foot rocket. 2 years ago i legit strapped my wildman extreme to the roof of my car and hooked a guage to it so i could at least get to 80mph on the freeway to get SOME sort of data. But i ended up coding an excel sheet to get the data i needed from others on this forum sharing their flight data with me : )
i do agree that the data from a wind tunnel is best. Even if the only value i got from my small wind tunnel at lab was the Cd, it was enough for me to calculate so many things
1). How does one define "better"?
2). The video Joe posted suggested every single different condition required turning the tunnel off and reconfiguring the model.
CFD is a tool and wind tunnels are tools as well. When used together (CFD for diagnostics, wind tunnel data for model validation) you can have a really good idea of what is going on but CFD will not be able to outright replace wind tunnels for the foreseeable future.
Well, RASAero is software and so is cfd. Both use the same equations for numerical methods and techniques. Granted the governing equations for cfd is the Navier Stokes equations, but cfd still uses the Runge Kuta, barowman in some cases, RE based off of surface friction, etc etc. I mean, openrocket is pretty much CFD without the visuals. It just calculates everything numerically and with an iterative process, but so does CFD. in fact the default iterations for cfdof in freecad is 2000 iterations.There are some tricks for dealing with scaling in wind tunnels where you can use a much smaller tunnel and scale model of the rocket. For rockets that remain below Mach 0.3 it's probably sufficient to treat the drag coefficient as a constant (so changing windspeed doesn't really change the drag coefficient, only the total forces/moments, and a small low speed tunnel would give reasonable data). Since turbulence is a function of Reynolds number you can add bumps to the surface of the model at a set distance from the leading edges of fins and the tip of the nosecone to force turbulent transition early on and simulate drag for a much larger model, usually some kind of grit. This can be as simple as just gluing coarse sand in a ring around the nose and in lines parallel to the fin leading edges. Form/pressure drag doesn't really care about the scale of the model, and turbulence really only affects drag while lift and pitching moment are driven predominantly by pressure.
As far as amateur efforts are concerned though given wind tunnels tend to be a bit of a luxury item for schools/amateurs, I'd trust results from RASAero far more than CFD in most cases. Charles Rogers has wind tunnel test data validating his RASAero predictions on his website: https://rasaero.com/
From what I can tell RASAero uses a lot of the same approaches as Missile DATCOM for its aerodynamic predictions (not terribly surprising as Charles did a stint with AFRL which currently maintains DATCOM), and Missile DATCOM is pretty much the industry standard for low-fidelity/rapid iteration on rockets/missiles. Lots of idealized but validated models built in, with experimentally derived fudge factors to get closer to the real answer.
As far as amateur efforts are concerned though given wind tunnels tend to be a bit of a luxury item for schools/amateurs, I'd trust results from RASAero far more than CFD in most cases. Charles Rogers has wind tunnel test data validating his RASAero predictions on his website: https://rasaero.com/
From what I can tell RASAero uses a lot of the same approaches as Missile DATCOM for its aerodynamic predictions (not terribly surprising as Charles did a stint with AFRL which currently maintains DATCOM), and Missile DATCOM is pretty much the industry standard for low-fidelity/rapid iteration on rockets/missiles. Lots of idealized but validated models built in, with experimentally derived fudge factors to get closer to the real answer.
As far as amateur efforts are concerned though given wind tunnels tend to be a bit of a luxury item for schools/amateurs, I'd trust results from RASAero far more than CFD in most cases. Charles Rogers has wind tunnel test data validating his RASAero predictions on his website: https://rasaero.com/
From what I can tell RASAero uses a lot of the same approaches as Missile DATCOM for its aerodynamic predictions (not terribly surprising as Charles did a stint with AFRL which currently maintains DATCOM), and Missile DATCOM is pretty much the industry standard for low-fidelity/rapid iteration on rockets/missiles. Lots of idealized but validated models built in, with experimentally derived fudge factors to get closer to the real answer.
Funny you should ask:
https://www.rocketryforum.com/threads/supersonic-cfd-with-freecad.185549/post-2567125
My CFD of the basic finner was a first attempt and fairly limited in mesh size in order to run in a few hours on a 4-core PC. No tuning the model to match the other data. The supersonic portion of CFD and RASAero are spot on identical.
CFD is great for those designs that violate Barrowman or Missile DATCOM. For instance, RASAero won't allow fins to extend on a boattail.
Honestly @Chuck Rogers I have no intentions of competing with your great software. I've used it myself many times. If CfD couldn't handle cases that RASAero can't, I wouldn't bother.
I decided early in development that I would work with existing tools doing things they can't rather than compete by reinventing the wheel. Even with dedicated CfD support many modelers just aren't going to want to run long simulations. But for geeks like me blessed with a 24 core ThreadRipper it's an attractive option, even as an intellectual curiosity!
The Rocket Workbench has an incomplete RASAero importer, paused only because it was dependent on some other pieces. I should be back at that soon. I also want to create an exporter so things can be round tripped.
Well, i sure hope its accurate because openFOAM is constantly validated and benchmarked by nasa on projects. NASA really likes openFOAMFunny you should ask:
https://www.rocketryforum.com/threads/supersonic-cfd-with-freecad.185549/post-2567125
My CFD of the basic finner was a first attempt and fairly limited in mesh size in order to run in a few hours on a 4-core PC. No tuning the model to match the other data. The supersonic portion of CFD and RASAero are spot on identical.
CFD is great for those designs that violate Barrowman or Missile DATCOM. For instance, RASAero won't allow fins to extend on a boattail.
I guess that’s all the recommendation I need!Well, i sure hope its accurate because openFOAM is constantly validated and benchmarked by nasa on projects. NASA really likes openFOAM
I'm working on a comparison for the RASAero web site where RASAero II is compared to results from FLUENT CFD for CD, CNalpha, and CP for a Mach 6 finned projectile.
The NACA ran a series of tests (wind tunnel and flight tests) on a vehicle called RM-10. I tried analyzing it with the Solidworks CFD tool, FloWorks (was it really 20 years ago?) and reported on it here. I didn't really know what tweaks to run to make a really accurate model (not sure FloWorks could handle it anyway). But the references are there for validation, if anyone is interested.Nice. Let us know how you calculate CP from the CFD data, as it is a very abstract concept!
May I suggest comparison studies from subsonic to, say, Mach 3, which would be the realm of 99.9% of hobbyists?
The NACA ran a series of tests (wind tunnel and flight tests) on a vehicle called RM-10. I tried analyzing it with the Solidworks CFD tool, FloWorks (was it really 20 years ago?) and reported on it here. I didn't really know what tweaks to run to make a really accurate model (not sure FloWorks could handle it anyway). But the references are there for validation, if anyone is interested.I exported an stl model from my SWX model, you should be able to download it from my link. A pdf drawing of the model is on the page. Be interesting to see a modern analysis!
Edit: I didn't put the stl out there, just a pdf.
To be fair an 8'x12' tunnel is massive. A lot of universities have 1'x1' tunnels, some of them even supersonic or hypersonic blowdown tunnels, that 8'x12' tunnel has 96x the cross sectional area and roughly the same increase in power requirements.For reference, here are the rates for using the University of Washington's wind tunnel. I'll use CfD thanks.
https://www.aa.washington.edu/AERL/KWT/rateguide
You may get better results with an industrial fan. Higher CFM/$, especially if you can source a used one. Also a lot more rugged. You may find building useful instrumentation to be a bigger expense.I've occasionally wondered if I could build a pretty decent wind tunnel with a bunch of leaf blowers and a series of laminarising baffles.
Maybe some day when I retire.
Yes. A smaller tunnel will reduce power costs and others, but it won't reduce manpower costs (setup, teardown, analysis, etc...)To be fair an 8'x12' tunnel is massive. A lot of universities have 1'x1' tunnels, some of them even supersonic or hypersonic blowdown tunnels, that 8'x12' tunnel has 96x the cross sectional area and roughly the same increase in power requirements.
A big industrial box fan may be sufficient for low speed (non-compressible) stuff. For blowdown supersonic tunnels people usually have a big tank (UTK's was a big repurposed propane tank) with a burst disc and a converging diverging nozzle leading into the test section.I've occasionally wondered if I could build a pretty decent wind tunnel with a bunch of leaf blowers and a series of laminarising baffles.
Maybe some day when I retire.
<<snip>> ... a pretty decent wind tunnel with a bunch of leaf blowers and a series of laminarising baffles.
And not nearly as loudYou may get better results with an industrial fan. Higher CFM/$, <<snip>> ...
Sounds like an interesting project though. Oooh! Squirrel! (Enough projects for now )
Nice. Let us know how you calculate CP from the CFD data, as it is a very abstract concept!
May I suggest comparison studies from subsonic to, say, Mach 3, which would be the realm of 99.9% of hobbyists?
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