Cesaroni 38 MM problem cato & not the good Bruce Lee kind

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tstone

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Am I the only one experiencing catos with Cesaroni 38 MM motors" 2 times in a row now I have had catos
caused by the rear closures to crack & fail. In both cases, the resulting cato 'welded' the spacers to the case making it impossible to remove them.
Today, a 3 grain case with a 1 grain 'G' motor & 2 spacers. Same thing 4 or 5 months ago. The motor that did this today was
manufactured 3/2016. If this keeps up I am going to have to quit Cesaroni, although I have had nothing but good experience
with their products over the last 6 years. Comments please.
 

crossfire

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I looked at the motor and it almost looks like the forward closure slid up inside the spacer all the way to the top of motor case. I have never seen this before. I would contact CTI and tell them about this problem. For sure they owe you new hardwear.
 

djkingsley

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there was an issue with the 38mm motors forward closure, I know AMW replaced a bunch of forward closures for me last summer. there is a notice on the subject on the CTI site (Pro38.com) under news dated 6/11/2017.
 

markkoelsch

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I would have the dealer you bought from deal with the warranty replacement.

I have seen far to many of these 38mm CTI issues. I have one remaining 38mm CTI load...
 

mhanna

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I'm a little confused, is this the "shiny-ridged" forward closure recall issue or something new that's occurred?
 

markkoelsch

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I'm a little confused, is this the "shiny-ridged" forward closure recall issue or something new that's occurred?
Not sure, but if it is popping hard enough to jam the spacers in the case there is a problem.
 

crossfire

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Mark
We tried to pound out forward closure and 2 spacers with a hammer and they will not move. It looks like the forward closure has slid up the inside of the 2 spacers and only stopped at the top of the case because the way the 38 case is rolled over at the top of the 38mm cases.
 

markkoelsch

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Mark
We tried to pound out forward closure and 2 spacers with a hammer and they will not move. It looks like the forward closure has slid up the inside of the 2 spacers and only stopped at the top of the case because the way the 38 case is rolled over at the top of the 38mm cases.
Hmm...I assume Tim is handling the warranty?

That this is happening is bad.

Considering the OP's problems I would suggest Aerotech. I know the hardware is more expensive, but you could go DMS. You might also be able to borrow hardware if you were to ask.
 

tstone

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Thanks to all for the feedback. I will be contacting Cesaroni for sure. I wanted to see if this was an issue with others first. I know they are a good company.
 

crossfire

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Might this problem be from the bad batch of 38mm forward closure material CTI had last year?
 

lawndartman

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ALL of the major motor manufacturers have had problems at one time or another. Cti as been the leader in making thing right in the high power motor game. They have caused other manufactures to up their service to keep up. The old 'user error' is not around much any more. In the past this was used to keep from making thing right. Under Dr. J, CTI motor problems are kept out in the open. And I hope this will continue. But if a couple of CATOs make you want to switch, then please do. Loki makes a fine line. May I suggest the I405! Bad to the bone. Then their is AeroTech. A full line of cool 38mm motors. Their new line of single use looks to be a winner. Me, I fly them all, always have. For me, taking CTI out of the mix is just stupid. You should try other manufacturers. I am sure you will be pleased at what you find! No matter what, KEEP FLYING! Tim Thomas L3 " They fly, they fall. They fly they fall. That is how they work"
 

crossfire

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A friend of mine said to me years ago. you have crashed 3 rockets last year and he had not crashed any. That year I had about 35 flights he had 2. So things happen. That's just part of the hobby.

Have fun and fly safe.
 

Bat-mite

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Yesterday I had to scrap a CTI I540 because the aft closure would pop out the forward closure or vice versa. I absolutely could not get the motor to stay together. I had a motor expert look at it. He even cut off some of the bottom grain, thinking that maybe the grains were too long. But no luck. Will be returning it to CTI.

I sadly fear that since the accident, things aren't quite so copacetic up there.

Just to be fair, I launched a 38mm J410-RL, and everything went perfectly.
 

tstone

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I couldn't agree more. You owe it to yourself to try different products to round out your experience.
I wish I had done so earlier. That being said, there is still the loyalty issue which I also am cognoscente of.
 

tstone

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Same argument I used to have at work, thank God I am retired. I would hear..
"Kenny F****ed up the paper order he can't get anything right!" same day as "Sally's accounts sent us all chocolates since they are so happy with her!"
Kenny handled $5 million worth of business and Sally handled a tenth of that (same salary)
 

cerving

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Another one for the "CTI Wishes Department"...

I wish CTI would retool their 38mm nozzles and use a real metal end closure instead of the threaded plastic nozzles. I've seen a lot of them get cross-threaded... once that happens, it's all over for that motor. I have an I255 that will probably never fly, at least until I can get a new nozzle from CTI (not soon, most likely), and I almost lost a J400 the same way last week.
 

KenRico

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Another one for the "CTI Wishes Department"...

I wish CTI would retool their 38mm nozzles and use a real metal end closure instead of the threaded plastic nozzles. I've seen a lot of them get cross-threaded... once that happens, it's all over for that motor. I have an I255 that will probably never fly, at least until I can get a new nozzle from CTI (not soon, most likely), and I almost lost a J400 the same way last week.
They did hardware 2.0 for the big stuff.. NOW would be a good time for Pro38 hardware 2.0 ..

Kenny
 

DavidMcCann

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Another one for the "CTI Wishes Department"...

I wish CTI would retool their 38mm nozzles and use a real metal end closure instead of the threaded plastic nozzles. I've seen a lot of them get cross-threaded... once that happens, it's all over for that motor. I have an I255 that will probably never fly, at least until I can get a new nozzle from CTI (not soon, most likely), and I almost lost a J400 the same way last week.
No one wants to deal with the fact the pro38 design sucks....... it. sucks.
 

neond7

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I have had really spotty luck myself with CTI and suffered damage to some nice rockets.

Always the same excuses "Oops, bad nozzles". "Oops, bad batch of liners". "Oops, out of spec batch". So many oops......

I realize their warranty is good, but when a bad 38mm 6xl IMAX motor splits the liner, burns through the side of the casing and destroys the Thor clone I spent a hundred hours building - a free replacement case and reload seems trivial.

I've been been flying 75% Aerotech and 25% CTI, but 100% of my motor malfunctions have been CTI. I'll never fly another CTI 38mm.... have a few 54mm reloads I'll fly as they have been better. If one of those ever screws up, then I'm ditching them all, it's not worth trashing rockets.
 

rfjustin

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2 times in a row now I have had catos caused by the rear closures to crack & fail. In both cases, the resulting cato 'welded' the spacers to the case making it impossible to remove them.
How do you know the rear closure did not break when it spun into the ground?

What confuses me is the inability to remove the spacers after the flight. That's the question I would ask CTI.
 

rcktnut

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No one wants to deal with the fact the pro38 design sucks....... it. sucks.
If my memory serves me right when CTI first came out with the 38's, the design and production method would allow them to be manufactured much cheaper with a nice savings for the consumer over the competitors prices at the time. That never happened!
 

boatgeek

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My experience with the 38mm forward closure failures was that they sometimes welded the spacer into the case. I am curious how a failed aft closure led to a fire out the top, welding the spacer in.
 

crossfire

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Justin
I am thinking the same thing only half of the thrust ring was missing. It looked like it broke from the hard
landing. It looks just like the forward delay closure slid all the way to the top of the motor inside the spacers. A hammer would not move it at all. Plus you can see the weep hole and what looks like split breaks all the way around the weep hole. Almost looks like a star grain gore hole.
 

soopirV

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Justin
I am thinking the same thing only half of the thrust ring was missing. It looked like it broke from the hard
landing. It looks just like the forward delay closure slid all the way to the top of the motor inside the spacers. A hammer would not move it at all. Plus you can see the weep hole and what looks like split breaks all the way around the weep hole. Almost looks like a star grain gore hole.
Any chance a picture or two can be posted?
 

rfjustin

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Any chance a picture or two can be posted?
I have no photos to share, maybe Tim can share some.

I did take video of the flight and landing in question. It will be posted on the TWA website sooner rather than later...
 

markkoelsch

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I have no photos to share, maybe Tim can share some.

I did take video of the flight and landing in question. It will be posted on the TWA website sooner rather than later...
So, did motor actually Cato shoving the forward closure into the spacers.

Was the flight profile close to expected?
 

crossfire

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That is what it looks like to me. I am thinking the star shaped thing is the black powder well very deformed and its pushed all the way up to the top of the case. The only thing that held it from going all the out was the rolled over end of the case. Its for sure in the spacers
 

3stoogesrocketry

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From the video , the rocket does not hit on the motor evident by what looked like a fin breaking off on landing . The forward clouser problem seems like the pressure in the motor tried to extrude the forward clouser out of the front of the case . Having the rolled over front no dought stopped the clouser from exiting the motor case . Having the motor burn , while the clouser is pushed to the front of the case is what caused the spacers to be "welded" into the case .
 
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