# Certification...

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#### pr_rocket04

##### Well-Known Member
I would like to start flying the smaller motors like 38mm's and 54mm's, and I feel it would be easier to buy them instead of make them myself. So I need a certification. It just so happens I am interested in Giant Leap's preassembled minimum diameter 38mm or 54mm rockets.

Could I use one of these rockets to certify level one or two, or do I have to build the entire rocket? Can level two use the same rocket used to certify level one?

#### r1dermon

##### Well-Known Member
you can build a kit, and get your cert on that. you can also use the same rocket for lvl 1 and 2. its got to be a rocket with a wide range of motors though. lol.

#### rstaff3

##### Oddroc-eteer
Yes you can use them, and yes you can use the same rocket for L1 and L2. Better have a nice field if you use one of those for L2, and/or take the risk of dual deploy.

#### r1dermon

##### Well-Known Member
depends on the rocket. i was looking at a LOC warlock, that would be great for both certs. however, for LVL 1, it really should only be flown on I's. plus, its kindof expensive. 160 bucks.

#### Stymye

##### Well-Known Member
sure can

2 seasons ago I assisted someone who certified L1 on a loc minimag to 1600' using motor ejection.

he than attached a weighted payload tube and certed L2 on the same rocket to less than 2000' using motor ejection.

both flights were on pro-38 and perfect recovery in close proximity.

#### pr_rocket04

##### Well-Known Member
That's great. I think I'll get the 54mm model, and I will use dual deploy with an AFC-877, and possible GPS as I haven't tested a system yet for my big project.

#### gerbs4me

##### Well-Known Member
you might wanna check out the PML Tethys, good rocket, can fly on a wide variety of motors. the MinnieMag is a good choice too

#### pr_rocket04

##### Well-Known Member
Certification is simply a level of completion status for those participating in NAR or TRA sanctioned launch events. Certification is also in no direct relation to ones true mechanical and/or intellectual ability, please be aware of this fact. And yes, that is the design I am building. For testing purposes, the sustainer will fly first before a booster is built. If it survives, then a new project will be underway.

#### edwardw

I built a 54mm rocket with a 38mm motor mount. I flew it for L1 and L2 with dual deploy both times. 1500 feet the for L1 and 6700 for L2. Took me about 3 hours to build it once I made all the parts. It was a great learning experience. I probably got all the parts for under $25, but that wasn't the point, the goal for me was L1/L2 with the same bird same day. Edward #### rstaff3 ##### Oddroc-eteer I know of one person who did all three in one day...there are probably more. pr_rocket04, you are right that certs aren't a necessary or sufficient condition to be an able HPR flier, however not having certs is generally an indication of a lack of experience, since most HPR fliers fall under this requirement. IMO anyone building a huge project should start with smaller projects, thus satisfying the *intent* of the cert process. This doesn't mean you aren't capable/intelligent (and for all I know you have far more than basic experience). #### Bowhunter ##### Well-Known Member PML AMRAAM4 you could fly it on an I (lev 1) then fly it on a J good strong kit and it looks awesome. #### gerbs4me ##### Well-Known Member oh yeah forgot the AMRAAM 4, this is another good choice, and it looks very cool #### rocket877 ##### Well-Known Member Originally posted by pr_rocket04 Could I use one of these rockets to certify level one or two, or do I have to build the entire rocket? Can level two use the same rocket used to certify level one? With a little extra reinforcement my 12" original flying saucer can fly on 38mm G through J motors. You could start with a practice flight on a Cesaroni, Pro38, 1 grain, G69 then get your Level 1 with a Pro38, 2 Grain,H153 and within 10 minutes get your Level 2 with a Pro38, 5 Grain, J285. That is assuming you took the Level 2 written test beforehand. With a saucer you have no worries about losing your rocket in the weeds, trees or power lines, no parachutes or electronics to fool with, and it will land very close to the pad even on a windy day, saving you a long walk. You would also qualify for my$20 Level 1 rebate. The total cost for your L1 & 2 assuming you borrow the Pro38 casings and buy the motors from Magnum would be $81 plus postage. #### pr_rocket04 ##### Well-Known Member I never thought about that! I am very interested in a saucer. #### Daedalus ##### Well-Known Member Originally posted by r1dermon you can build a kit, and get your cert on that. you can also use the same rocket for lvl 1 and 2. its got to be a rocket with a wide range of motors though. lol. Not actually true, use the Pro38 5 grain case - I350 SS for level 1 (601ns) then pop in the J285 (648ns) for level 2. Very little motor range required. Now if you want to do L1 on an H and L2 on an L then that will require a very different model #### DynaSoar ##### Well-Known Member Originally posted by pr_rocket04 I would like to start flying the smaller motors like 38mm's and 54mm's, and I feel it would be easier to buy them instead of make them myself. So I need a certification. It just so happens I am interested in Giant Leap's preassembled minimum diameter 38mm or 54mm rockets. Could I use one of these rockets to certify level one or two, or do I have to build the entire rocket? Can level two use the same rocket used to certify level one? These rockets use fin cans, and those are forbidden for L1/2 attempts. Only L3 used to say it explicitly, but now they all do. (NAR should update its web pages). I don;t have the rule book here, but I remember the sections were 5.1.1 (L1) and 6.1.1 (L2) Part of the cert procedure is to test whether you're capable of successfully flying something more complex than a premade tube nose and fins. If they let you cert on this there's no reasonable way to assume that when you build a 1/4 scale Nike Smoke with dual-deploy and working tracking smoke generator, you could make it hold together in the air. Cert is far more about building rockets than it is how big a hole you can punch in the sky. Any kit that does not use a fin can, whether surface mount or TTW, should be acceptable for L1 and 2 trials. I suggest finding a kit you can build and test on a G to make sure it's ready for higher power, and can handle a J. A couple good, solid kits that don't cost too much that can hold G through J are LOC's EZI-65 and Norad Pro-Maxx. Get the 38mm to 29mm adapter with than to fly them on smaller (if only in diameter) motors. Im sure you can find either with the adapter for less than$100 and use it for both certs.

Be aware LOC does notuse positive motor retention. If you want that, plan ahead.

#### r1dermon

##### Well-Known Member
well, you named one good option, my point is that there arent that many motors produced in a tight range like that. i've looked into doing both lvl 1 and 2 certs on one rocket. for the most part, the rockets need to have a pretty wide range of useable motors. but, you did name an alternative.

#### DynaSoar

##### Well-Known Member
Originally posted by pr_rocket04
Certification is also in no direct relation to ones true mechanical and/or intellectual ability, please be aware of this fact.
The people who do the certifying explicitly assert precisely the opposite. It is intended to test you in both areas for the minimum considered necessary for safely flying with others.

You are, of course, free to fly anything you want that you can buy or build, without regard to others' considered standards. You just won't be able to fly it with those to choose to adhere to those standards. Doing so means you will be entirely responsible and liable for any adverse results.

#### Neil

##### Well-Known Member
You could get a Polecat Aerospace Nike Smoke... It can fly on the I357T for L1, then maybe a J350 for L2 in the same day. Very easy build.

The Giant Leap kits are minimum diameter, so they would go VERY high on L2 motors. The 38 might even reach a mile and a half or maybe two miles (I wouldent know... Ive never flown one) on a J, which would be hard to find. Plus the cert people like to be able to see the rocket for most if not all the flight.

Most of the LOC 5.5" kits are good for this purpose too, and PML is never a bad choice.

Good luck, whatever you decide!

#### Chuck Rudy

##### Well-Known Member
I regularly fly a LOC Minnie Magg (beefed up to G10 TTW fins and two wraps of glass) which regularly flies on AT H123s (when the AT delays let it get past a .5 second flight but even AT can't zipper it), it flew to my L2 on a J350 with a pound of nose weight after CATOing on a J330. It slept in a field overnight, beat up a car, and may burn a hybrid soon, or it may get another BT for a big hybrid. With a little build up it can fly L1 and L2.........or it can survive a street brawl.

#### Elapid

##### Well-Known Member
a US Rockets Sonic 3100-2 sustainer. No glass was used, just the paper and wood rocket parts that came in the kit.

I used a 54/38mm adapter and flew it on an I366R for the level 1 flight. on the Level 2 certification flight, i loaded up a J275W and crossed my fingers!

i'd look into the USR kits with 54mm MMTs, they're alright!