"Cert racing" vs. skills development and creativity

[SolarYellow]

A couple of conversations in diverse areas of the forum led me to draft this response, but I figured it might be better to make it its own thread rather than threadjack one of those others.
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You can do DD on Estes kits with D motors or less. DD and HPR have traditionally been linked but you can do DD without needing HPR and you can do HPR without needing DD (until L3) Do whatcha enjoy

This. I'm pretty recently BARed and haven't built and flown much yet, but I'm an engineer who builds things. What's captivated me is the design/engineering and problem solving involved. It's fun in that I can let my creativity run without the actual construction costing so much it can materially impact my financial future. (That's a reality when it comes to the next four-wheeled idea I have.) On that note, I'm hesitant about L1 and pretty much not interested in L2 (yet, perhaps). The idea of turning >$100 into smoke and noise in less than three seconds still doesn't make sense to me, at least when it's my money.

With the current and upcoming generations of electronics, you can go DD with GPS tracking in a MD 24mm rocket. For example, I've put together an OR sim with an Eggfinder Mini in the nose cone and a standard mid-body split DD setup using a Quark. All in an Estes Black Brant kit that AC Supply sells for $8.99, and can be had by itself shipped for ~$17 all over the internet. You can duplicate it with a carbon fiber body tube and flat c.f. plate for fins, obtained inexpensively from a host of Chinese suppliers, if you want to play with the more powerful 24mm reloads and be robust through transonic (maybe changing to a clipped delta shape to address flutter...).

You can do a lot of cool stuff with an AT 24/40 case if you follow the physics rather than eating what the market feeds you with a spoon.

With a Raven, you can do composite air start in a 24mm BT. With the F44 SU motors, this can be a machbuster and pass 7000 feet, at least in the sim. Some problem solving necessary, but that's actually (one of) the interesting part(s) if you like building stuff.

I figure out of sight, relying on your GPS tracker to get it back, is probably similar whether it's a 1 inch BT or a 4 inch BT. I do spend time near dry lakes, so that does kinda influence my ideas about what's reasonable and likely.

If you're OK with the loss of performance on 24mm motors or the extra expense of 29mm motors, stepping up to a <$20 BT-55 kit like a Cherokee E is positively cavernous and should make everything easy. Even a Goblin is in there, although its shortness makes a mid-body split more challenging, maybe not even a good idea. But even that just points toward additional creative solutions rather than just doing "what everyone does."

In short, as someone who's captivated by the design, building and systems integration (summarizing: "creative") aspects of the hobby, there's a path to doing "all the things" as far as deployment technology, composite construction, etc., relatively inexpensively and without ever going near an L1 cert. I might jump to an L1 relatively early just because there are some things I want to do that fall into that, but if I do, the certification itself will certainly not be the point. It's even a fun aspect to work on improving performance within the box of MPR rather than just throwing more power at it to go higher/faster. I'm in many ways at my happiest and best when I'm able to be an information sponge, learning at a rapid rate, and there is a lot to learn in this hobby, readily accessible to someone motivated to soak it up, thanks to the internet.

With my creative juices going and all the ideas I have for scratch and kit bashed builds, the perspective of, "I want to get my L1/L2 cert, what kit should I buy?" is not a place I can imagine finding myself. Much more like, "Which of the many ideas flying around my head would be best suited for this?" I'm not saying anyone else is wrong, just kind of feel like I'm an oddball in a room full of oddballs (let's be honest... ).

 

[Steve Shannon]

It sounds like you have the right motivation. Getting certified at any level should be because you feel a desire or have a need to fly the size of motor permitted by that level of certification. All certification does is acknowledge that you have proven the ability (at least once) to build a rocket capable of withstanding the minimum impulse level available in that level. It doesn’t demonstrate intelligence, wisdom, judgement, or social standing of any kind. I’ve met certified flyers who didn’t have much sense at all and I’ve known a lot of people who were not HPR certified who had amazing amounts of know how.
Aaron was exactly right when he said “Fly what you enjoy!”
But, just to be clear, dual deployment is not mandated at any certification level. There are certainly practical considerations that might make it necessary, but our rules allow a person to certify using single deployment for L3.

 

[bad_idea]

My approach is similar. There are many things I would like to learn, and I may as well learn those that I can at lower cost and impulse first. I also don't figure I'm in any sort of hurry, or I would have gotten back into rocketry sooner.

So I'll eventually go for L1 (and probably L2, and maybe L3 someday), but for the moment there are a number of milestones I want to knock out and techniques I want to master first. (Plus I end up distracted by side quests.)

I am working with larger tubes though. Someday I hope to do more with minimum diameter, but it's just easier to learn things with more space to work with. If I do end up jumping the gun and certing L1 before checking off the milestones of my current plans, it will likely be so I can continue my learning in even roomier airframes before downsizing again down the road.

 

[tsmith1315]

I'm not saying anyone else is wrong, just kind of feel like I'm an oddball in a room full of oddballs

It’s good to see differing opinions here.

There are plenty of lurking members and guests who may never join, but silently look to the group for advice. Answers to unasked questions are often better when there are multiple perspectives to consider.

 

[JohnCoker]

Some amazing stuff has been done with MPR; BPS space springs immediately to mind.

Things have changed a lot over the time I've been in the hobby and there are a lot more ways to advance now than just flying bigger rockets on larger motors.

That said, there are different challenges when flying larger rockets on higher-performance motors (it's not a simple matter of linearly scaling up). Some amazing stuff is happening at the other end of the hobby too with flights to altitudes we never considered achievable in the past.

 

[mh9162013]

I'm with you, @SolarYellow in that I'm a BAR who's in it for the building and designing of rockets. For me, flying is enjoyable, but secondary.

As for certifications, I feel they serve two purposes for most people who get them. One, they serve as a means of using bigger engines for your creative and engineering desires (as @Steve Shannon has already mentioned). Two, they're a way to boost your self-esteem. To each their own...

 

[Zeta]

than three seconds

A couple of conversations in diverse areas of the forum led me to draft this response, but I figured it might be better to make it its own thread rather than threadjack one of those others.
------------------------


This. I'm pretty recently BARed and haven't built and flown much yet, but I'm an engineer who builds things. What's captivated me is the design/engineering and problem solving involved. It's fun in that I can let my creativity run without the actual construction costing so much it can materially impact my financial future. (That's a reality when it comes to the next four-wheeled idea I have.) On that note, I'm hesitant about L1 and pretty much not interested in L2 (yet, perhaps). The idea of turning >$100 into smoke and noise in less than three seconds still doesn't make sense to me, at least when it's my money.

With the current and upcoming generations of electronics, you can go DD with GPS tracking in a MD 24mm rocket. For example, I've put together an OR sim with an Eggfinder Mini in the nose cone and a standard mid-body split DD setup using a Quark. All in an Estes Black Brant kit that AC Supply sells for $8.99, and can be had by itself shipped for ~$17 all over the internet. You can duplicate it with a carbon fiber body tube and flat c.f. plate for fins, obtained inexpensively from a host of Chinese suppliers, if you want to play with the more powerful 24mm reloads and be robust through transonic (maybe changing to a clipped delta shape to address flutter...).

You can do a lot of cool stuff with an AT 24/40 case if you follow the physics rather than eating what the market feeds you with a spoon.

With a Raven, you can do composite air start in a 24mm BT. With the F44 SU motors, this can be a machbuster and pass 7000 feet, at least in the sim. Some problem solving necessary, but that's actually (one of) the interesting part(s) if you like building stuff.

I figure out of sight, relying on your GPS tracker to get it back, is probably similar whether it's a 1 inch BT or a 4 inch BT. I do spend time near dry lakes, so that does kinda influence my ideas about what's reasonable and likely.

If you're OK with the loss of performance on 24mm motors or the extra expense of 29mm motors, stepping up to a <$20 BT-55 kit like a Cherokee E is positively cavernous and should make everything easy. Even a Goblin is in there, although its shortness makes a mid-body split more challenging, maybe not even a good idea. But even that just points toward additional creative solutions rather than just doing "what everyone does."

In short, as someone who's captivated by the design, building and systems integration (summarizing: "creative") aspects of the hobby, there's a path to doing "all the things" as far as deployment technology, composite construction, etc., relatively inexpensively and without ever going near an L1 cert. I might jump to an L1 relatively early just because there are some things I want to do that fall into that, but if I do, the certification itself will certainly not be the point. It's even a fun aspect to work on improving performance within the box of MPR rather than just throwing more power at it to go higher/faster. I'm in many ways at my happiest and best when I'm able to be an information sponge, learning at a rapid rate, and there is a lot to learn in this hobby, readily accessible to someone motivated to soak it up, thanks to the internet.

With my creative juices going and all the ideas I have for scratch and kit bashed builds, the perspective of, "I want to get my L1/L2 cert, what kit should I buy?" is not a place I can imagine finding myself. Much more like, "Which of the many ideas flying around my head would be best suited for this?" I'm not saying anyone else is wrong, just kind of feel like I'm an oddball in a room full of oddballs (let's be honest... ).

L1 cert flight was the first rocket that I launched. I know some guys that have only flown low power for the last 30 years and they look at me like I am weird. ..... It seems that most anything I might want to do with a rocket I can get down with 640 NT or less. I have seen people, especially the younger ones ...get an L1 cert and then before the rocket cools down from the flight they are talking about L2. It's sort of the 'gotta level up' mentality they get from video gaming I guess.

Anyway before I think about L2 I am looking at :
1) a mach 1+ flight with tracking
2) a mile high flight with tracking
3) a big fat low and slow rocket on an I motor
4) some kind of funky odd rocket H powered
5) duel deploy of course
6) 2 stage ....maybe
7) gliders
8) night rocket
9) applewhite stealth or variant
10) pepperoni pizza

ya...I think that is plenty to work on for now

~ Zeta

 

[SolarYellow]

Some amazing stuff has been done with MPR;

You might guess that this OP was started as a response to your "L2 cert approach" thread. Kind of off-topic for that, but felt I wanted to share my thoughts anyway.

Anyway before I think about L2 I am looking at :
1) a mach 1+ flight with tracking
2) a mile high flight with tracking
3) a big fat low and slow rocket on an I motor
4) some kind of funky odd rocket H powered
5) duel deploy of course
6) 2 stage ....maybe
7) gliders
8) night rocket
9) applewhite stealth or variant
10) pepperoni pizza

ya...I think that is plenty to work on for now

~ Zeta

I literally have a list with all of the below on it. It just seems a little bit more challenging, and thus interesting, to do with G power and below. In fact, sims seem to show the extra impulse of G motors being eaten by the additional frontal area of a 29mm tube (r^2 works faster than it looks), so the really zoomy stuff is planned at 24mm and F motors.

Anyway before I think about L2 L1, I am looking at :
1) a mach 1+ flight with tracking
2) a mile high flight with tracking
3) a big fat low and slow rocket on a G motor -> 3-inch scratch built Goblin
4) some kind of funky odd rocket H powered Closest I come on this is a V2 semi-scale scratch build.
5) dual deploy of course
6) 2 stage ....pho shizzle, dizzle (and this means composite air start, of course)
10) pepperoni pizza can't do pizza, I'm that weird kid with food issues...

ya...I think that is plenty to work on for now

I guess it's nice that looking over the edge into H and J motor pricing has me thinking F and G motors aren't that bad.

 

[loopy]

There should be no race to certify, honestly. You're exactly right - it's all about learning, and also having fun doing what you like to do. I flew for many years in the low/mid power regions before I got my L1. I then spent many years at L1 building different types of rockets and learning DD techniques and what not, and decided to get my L2 when I felt I'd learned/progressed as far as I needed to at the L1 level.

Refreshing to see someone not in a hurry and just wanting to learn and have fun.

 

[Banzai88]

Refreshing to see someone not in a hurry and just wanting to learn and have fun.

Agreed 100%. I've seen a tremendous amount of folks L1/L2 on the same day with the same rocket.....then go L3CC/TAP shopping by the end of that day. I'm always amazed at the number of folks that actually sign on to that sort of plan (the 2nd rocket they've ever built, test flown to test electronics on an L2 motor, then let-er-rip in the afternoon with an L3 motor)!

Of those that I've watched, all but one (a previous rocketeer) have failed their first (and in some cases, second) L3 launch flights. Few have actually stayed in rocketry, successful L3 or not. Those that have stayed have somewhat of a 'cowboy' approach, and are borderline unsafe.

Set your own pace, set your own goals, cert safely, build what you like, fly what you enjoy!

 

[SolarYellow]

I can see a "merit badge" approach. With certain kinds of adult supervision, a young person might set out to accomplish a list of objectives in an activity, get the badge, and then move onto the next one. Rocketry, archery, basket weaving, camp craft, horsemanship, shotgunning (in that other country known as The Past), etc.

Not a terrible way to become acquainted with many of the different and wonderful things that life has to offer, and as I said before, nothing wrong with it. Even if people don't stick with rocketry as a hobby/lifestyle, the more people who think of it as something they associate with positively, the better for the future of the hobby when it comes to access, regulation, etc.

Just to note, because I think it's interesting, the place I have seen this "merit badge" approach most often among my adult acquaintances is marathon running. Someone who typically has not been a runner for most of their life gets the idea to run a marathon and trains up. A year or two after completing it, they never run anymore. I ran cross country in high school. Wasn't really competitive, but mostly had a good time, and it planted the seed that stayed with me until physical issues stopped me. I had less than zero interest in running more than about six miles, or even competing, but LOOOVED doing four or five miles along the beach several times a week.

 

[loopy]

I can see a "merit badge" approach. With certain kinds of adult supervision, a young person might set out to accomplish a list of objectives in an activity, get the badge, and then move onto the next one. Rocketry, archery, basket weaving, camp craft, horsemanship, shotgunning (in that other country known as The Past), etc.

Not a terrible way to become acquainted with many of the different and wonderful things that life has to offer, and as I said before, nothing wrong with it. Even if people don't stick with rocketry as a hobby/lifestyle, the more people who think of it as something they associate with positively, the better for the future of the hobby when it comes to access, regulation, etc.

Just to note, because I think it's interesting, the place I have seen this "merit badge" approach most often among my adult acquaintances is marathon running. Someone who typically has not been a runner for most of their life gets the idea to run a marathon and trains up. A year or two after completing it, they never run anymore. I ran cross country in high school. Wasn't really competitive, but mostly had a good time, and it planted the seed that stayed with me until physical issues stopped me. I had less than zero interest in running more than about six miles, or even competing, but LOOOVED doing four or five miles along the beach several times a week.

I need to get back in to running. I ran and lost a bunch of weight (nearly 100 pounds). Did 7 half marathons over 4 years, but then had a bunch of injuries. Ugh...

 

[Zeta]

You might guess that this OP was started as a response to your "L2 cert approach" thread. Kind of off-topic for that, but felt I wanted to share my thoughts anyway.

Ya.... I guess to finish my thought ... my approach to L2cert is to first explore what is possible with L1 power. The only difference in L1 and L2 (besides the written test) is power factor.

To address the rocket and flight plan for a an L2 if asked today I would fly a 5.5" diameter airframe, keep apogee under 3K, pop to drogue at the top and a jolly chute release at 600 feet.

https://locprecision.com/collections/rockets-5-54-diameter

 

[boatgeek]

What I tell the students in my TARC team is that there is no wrong way to do rocketry. There are so many different things that people do and enjoy in this hobby, and they're all valid as long as they are planned with safe flights in mind. I fly mostly F and G because that's what fits nicely on my home field, but I do like to get out once or twice a year to an organized launch and let some HPR rip. For some things (especially AV bays), a little bigger is easier at first since you don't have to work quite so hard to get everything to fit.

 

[loopy]

What I tell the students in my TARC team is that there is no wrong way to do rocketry. There are so many different things that people do and enjoy in this hobby, and they're all valid as long as they are planned with safe flights in mind. I fly mostly F and G because that's what fits nicely on my home field, but I do like to get out once or twice a year to an organized launch and let some HPR rip. For some things (especially AV bays), a little bigger is easier at first since you don't have to work quite so hard to get everything to fit.

Exactly - no wrong way to do it, but no need to be in a rush either.

 

[T-Rex]

The only reason I started looking at L2 was so I could assist with launches more. Our rules require RSO/LCO to be L2.
Rocket is built, I have a DMS motor, but since the Covid shutdown, I'm really not that interested any more.
Quite happy with LPR/MPR and occasional L1 flights (so is my wallet)

 

[SolarYellow]

The only logical reason I am interested in L2 is so I can use longer delay grains in 24mm MPR reloads, which makes them "experimental." But I can see taking on a bigger role to contribute more to the hobby being a factor down the road, too.

 

[ac2fv]

I made my L1 last month, but L2 is a long ways off. I need to get some experience. JLCR, learning to use reloadable motors, DD, altimeters... no need to spend $$$ for an education that can be had with $, IMHO

 

[smstachwick]

The only logical reason I am interested in L2 is so I can use longer delay grains in 24mm MPR reloads, which makes them "experimental." But I can see taking on a bigger role to contribute more to the hobby being a factor down the road, too.

Here’s another: Tripoli prefectures require L2 to RSO. If you see value in assisting with range operations and making these things happen, maybe consider putting together something like an Enerjet/AeroTech Astrobee D and a Madcow Torrent for those two certs flights. An H115DM and a J425R should do nicely.

And it doesn’t even have to come at the (time) cost of your L/MPR projects either. You can do a step while the glue dries on another project, go through the build at a leisurely pace, then commit when you’re really ready and use the attempt to cap off a weekend of flying D motors off the LPR pads.

 

[Antares JS]

I did level 1 as soon as I turned 18, but in my case I had been doing LPR for eight years previously. The only reason I started working on level 2 immediately after that was because I really wanted to get into electronic deployment and I really wanted to fly the 38mm six-grain J motors. At the time, all the kits I was aware of that could take electronics required at least a large I to fly well.

I got my level 2 in 2006 and was content with the Aerotech 38/720 being my biggest case for a long time. I only flew a 54mm motor for the first time in 2011, and I didn't get my level 3 until this year.

Actually, scratch that, I flew a 54mm motor for the first time in 2007 at Midwest Power. It was a J250FJ. However, I flew it with a borrowed case and only because Wildman ran out of 38mm J's! I didn't fly another 54mm motor until 2011, when I bought my own 54/852 and 54/1280 cases.

 

[mbeels]

You can do a lot of cool stuff with an AT 24/40 case if you follow the physics rather than eating what the market feeds you with a spoon.

I agree, some of the most fun (and definitely the most fun/$$) has been with the 24/40 case.

In short, as someone who's captivated by the design, building and systems integration (summarizing: "creative") aspects of the hobby, there's a path to doing "all the things" as far as deployment technology, composite construction, etc., relatively inexpensively and without ever going near an L1 cert.

That summarizes it well. Figuring out how to do dual deploy (or airstarts, or payloads, or altitude, or duration, or scale, or...) in a low or mid-power rocket is whole lot of fun. That is the kind of creative solving that tickles my brain.

 

[BEC]

That summarizes it well. Figuring out how to do dual deploy (or airstarts, or payloads, or altitude, or duration, or scale, or...) in a low or mid-power rocket is whole lot of fun. That is the kind of creative solving that tickles my brain.

This....indeed. Several of these are interesting and challenging even firmly in the LPR realm (which is why I don't understand the real general lack of interest in competition).

I think the biggest single kick I've gotten out of rocketry so far (at least in my BAR period which started ~2009) was going to NARAM-56 in Pueblo (2014) and winning B Cluster Altitude (which is a five-motor cluster, for those unfamiliar with the event). It was my first NARAM (though I've gone to a couple more since) and I had only done a little competition flying in the local area before that. I picked that event because there wasn't really a standard design with available kits for it, and I'd noticed from flying small altimeters a good deal by then that the Quest Chinese-made black powder Bs outperformed their Estes counterparts significantly. And there was the challenge of getting five motors reliably lit, too.

So a feature of my design was four of them in the pods, with an Estes motor in the center for the longer delay (which was still too short). Designing a model to stand the expected too-short delay (so streamer recovery) and yet landing on a field I already knew to be hard from having been there for NSL in 2013 (so basswood fins mounted alongside the pods for more glue surface rather than "normally"), and then having it all work well enough to win, was really exhilarating.

I have a Level-1 certification, but only because it is technically needed for me to fly a couple of my favorite CTI 29mm reloads (G83 Blue Streak, G88 Smoky Sam) in my Estes PSII rockets and my upscale Nova Payloader, made from PSII parts primarily. I really don't have any inclination to get a higher level certification. I've no place to keep bigger rockets, really, and I can get plenty high with the smaller stuff. For me putting an Alpha up to 1100 feet on a Q-Jet C12 and getting it back is at least as satisfying as putting one of the PSII models that high on a G. And I really don't understand the rationale behind big, heavy pieces of flying furniture full of thick pieces of plywood and chunks of steel hardware that take a J or K to go 1000 feet, even though that's clearly a "thing" for some. But that's probably at least tangentially off topic for this thread.

I will admit that it is great fun to watch a big, reasonably built HPR go high enough to wink out of sight, then see well-executed dual deployment bring it back into view and set it gently down on the field, and it's even cooler to watch something that includes air starting or delayed staging in the up part. But I'll likely never master the other things I find interesting before I would get to ambitious and impressive projects like that myself.

 

[SolarYellow]

And I really don't understand the rationale behind big, heavy pieces of flying furniture full of thick pieces of plywood and chunks of steel hardware that take a J or K to go 1000 feet, even though that's clearly a "thing" for some. But that's probably at least tangentially off topic for this thread.

No, it's actually part of why the thread was started.

ETA (and adding a tag @BEC):
Your posting about putting an E6-8 in an Alpha was a key doorway in my fascination with all this stuff. Hadn't noticed that motor before that, now it's in all my 24mm MD sims. Or if it isn't, that's an oversight.

 

[Sooner Boomer]

For me, from my viewpoint, there wasn't a whole lot of difference between my L1 cert flight and what I'd already been doing. It was done on a 20+ year old rocket that had been flown (and crashed... and rebuilt) on G80's. I guess the differences were 1) bigger motor (H128), a tracker (Walston), and (I think) a JLCR. I could have done it without the tracker and chute release. My L1 was in May, my L2 was in August. My L2 involved a little bit more engineering and care during assembly. It flew on a J238, and again, a Walston tracker. Truth be told, that's the biggest motor, and highest flight so far. I'm not in any hurry to do L3, but I have a plan. The rest of this year, and 2023 will be spent doing electronic recovery, including dual deploy. Only (assuming I've met my goals) at the end of '23 will I begin actually planning and building my L3 project. I see more difference between L2-L3 cert than any other certification. One main difference being that you have to demonstrate your *ability* rather than just your knowledge.

 

[jmasterj]

I really don't understand the rationale behind big, heavy pieces of flying furniture full of thick pieces of plywood and chunks of steel hardware that take a J or K to go 1000 feet, even though that's clearly a "thing" for some. But that's probably at least tangentially off topic for this thread.

Fire and smoke and flights you can see in their entirety are fun for many. It's really that simple. I'm sure you do understand that, and were simply using a rhetorical flourish.

 

[BEC]

Fire and smoke and flights you can see in their entirety are fun for many. It's really that simple. I'm sure you do understand that, and were simply using a rhetorical flourish.

To some degree.

But at the same time, the first time I saw high powered rockets (a dozen years ago or so now) I, coming from an aviation background, both as an aeromodeller and as an engineer at Boeing, was frankly appalled at how some of them were built. They weren't flying machines as I understood them but were built like furniture, then loaded with lots of Newton-seconds so they could fly anyway.

One can get "fire and smoke and flights you can see in their entirety" without using concrete form tubes, 3/4 inch plywood and a bunch of steel hardware that looks like it belongs in a shipyard instead of an aircraft. See some of Frank Burke's non-RC rocket glider creations, for example. (Oh, and his rocket gliders are extremely cool, too.).

At one of those first HPR launches I attended I put a BMS School Rocket with an altimeter aboard (the original BT-50-based one, with its optional payload section) up to 1700 feet by putting a D10-7 in it. That is more the kind of challenge I like. But admittedly that was NOT a flight that anyone there saw "in its entirety". But since the D10 is a White Lighting motor, there was plenty of fire and smoke at first.

No, it's actually part of why the thread was started.

ETA (and adding a tag @BEC):
Your posting about putting an E6-8 in an Alpha was a key doorway in my fascination with all this stuff. Hadn't noticed that motor before that, now it's in all my 24mm MD sims. Or if it isn't, that's an oversight.

I hadn't read the threads that this was apparently an offshoot off, so maybe I didn't quite get the "flying furniture alternative" flavor. I have seen the "cert race" mentality in action, though. And I pretty much align with your initial post.

I need to do something with the remaining E6-8s I have from the buy I made before NARAM-61. I need to make something small with a tracker in it, I think, even though it wouldn't go to 5000 feet like the Alpha relative I made for E Altitude at that NARAM (where I placed third). More on uses of E6-8s (with piston launchers!) in the latest Sport Rocketry as they flew E Payload Altitude at NARAM-63....

I just had a crazy idea as I was about to push "post reply" that I could build one of my favorite LPR models (Nova Payloader) with a 24mm motor mount, put an Eggfinder Mini (and some tiny altimeter) in the payload section and fly it on an E6-8. Much bigger fins than the contest models, so maybe 3500 feet? I'd have to think about fin flutter. Maybe paper the fins.... Hmmmmmm.......

 

[smstachwick]

I need to do something with the remaining E6-8s I have from the buy I made before NARAM-61. I need to make something small with a tracker in it, I think, even though it wouldn't go to 5000 feet like the Alpha relative I made for E Altitude at that NARAM (where I placed third). More on uses of E6-8s (with piston launchers!) in the latest Sport Rocketry as they flew E Payload Altitude at NARAM-63....

I just had a crazy idea as I was about to push "post reply" that I could build one of my favorite LPR models (Nova Payloader) with a 24mm motor mount, put an Eggfinder Mini (and some tiny altimeter) in the payload section and fly it on an E6-8. Much bigger fins than the contest models, so maybe 3500 feet? I'd have to think about fin flutter. Maybe paper the fins.... Hmmmmmm.......

Apogee seems to think they’ll go pretty well in a U.S. Rockets Hammerhead, they reckon a hair over 3500 with six small funny-lookin’ fins. I’d say that’s doable in an optimized 3FNC payloader.

 

[MidOH]

I'm gluing up my L2 Loc 5.5" Goblin while the paint on my L1 build is drying. It's about the same thing. I don't see the big fuss.

Many people keep talking about L1 "should have a test'', but that's L2. L1 with a test, would be no different, it seems.

I have no plans to race to L3.

 

[jqavins]

The idea of turning >$100 into smoke and noise in less than three seconds still doesn't make sense to me, at least when it's my money.

For many, the idea is that at the end of a journey of learning and achievement, $100 or more is converted into smoke and noise. There are some who just want to watch the smoke and hear the noise, but I'm pretty darn sure that they're the ones in the minority, not you.

You can do a lot of cool stuff with an AT 24/40 case if you follow the physics rather than eating what the market feeds you with a spoon...

But even that just points toward additional creative solutions rather than just doing "what everyone does."

Maybe I've read you wrong, but it seems to me that you're talking about an attitude that's far less common around here than you seem to think it is.

Getting certified at any level should be because you feel a desire or have a need to fly the size of motor permitted by that level of certification. All certification does is acknowledge that you have proven the ability (at least once) to build a rocket capable of withstanding the minimum impulse level available in that level.

Here, Steve, I can only 50% agree. Sometimes, proving that one can build such a thing, and fly it successfully, is the point. It's an accomplishment. "Because it's there." I got my L1 somewhere around 10 years ago and haven't flown any HPR since, but I do feel proud of having done it. I have some things I'm interested in doing with H or I motors, but not so interested that I've done them (yet). And I've got plans to get my L2 for the same reason, simply the achievement. I may well never fly a second motor bigger than an I, or I may wind up thinking of some other goal that requires it, but either way, the accomplishment itself is worthwhile. (And there is another reason, stated hereafter.) L3 never will be worth doing unless I hit that two gigadollar jackpot.

That said, it's still not that "bigger is better", it's that reaching bigger is worthy.

It's sort of the 'gotta level up' mentality they get from video gaming I guess.

Yup, it's all about the video games. And that crazy music the kids are listening to these days. They just don't respect traditions like we did at their age. (For the sarcasm impaired among you, young people today are no different than young people have been since the dawn of time.)

There should be no race to certify, honestly.

Agreed 100%. I've seen a tremendous amount of folks L1/L2 on the same day with the same rocket...

I honestly don't know where this is coming from. I don't mean that I have seen this behavior, but I've seen it only a couple of times, and seen almost everyone around looking askance at it and/or urging the people to slow down.

(I've now skipped a bunch of posts, because lunch time is over.)

My other reason to want to get my L2 is that it opens doors other than the ability to buy bigger motors. I can't sit (alone) at the RSO table and check other people's rockets at my local club launches without it. I can't engage in making EX motors without it, even though I'm only interested in researching small ones. (It really doesn't make sense to me that I'll need my L2 in order to fly home made 13 mm B motors at a sanctioned event, but those are the rules.)

 

[Steve Shannon]

That said, it's still not that "bigger is better", it's that reaching bigger is worthy.

I can respect that.