Can HPR survive with $100 J motors?

[DaHabes]

Apogee. $45.89. Plus shipping.

Apogee upcharges everything...

 

[bad_idea]

Challenges create opportunities for innovation. If the cost of composite motors is being driven by APCP, then maybe a manufacturer will release a line of certified composite motors using AN as the oxidizer. Or perhaps a line of commercially manufactured certified sugar motors.

I'd welcome more propellant options, both out of curiosity and because it might hedge against some chemical supply problems and prices, but I worry that alternative propellants would reopen the door to ATF meddling and legal trouble for manufacturers and customers of those alternatives. So far as I can tell, the ruling in the victorious TRA/NAR lawsuit only covered ammonium perchlorate. Is there guidance from the ATF elsewhere indicating this wouldn't be a problem?

 

[cerving]

Can HPR survive with $100 J motors?

• Did Starbucks survive $5+ coffee?
• Did bottled water survive when people were shocked at paying for something they get free from the tap?
• Did designer jeans & clothes survive?

People want what they want and the more people want things, the higher the price can go (Ebay seller here).

Supply shortages, materials cost inflation, wage increases, factory work disruption from covid, government giving out "Covid Relief" money, are all creating a perfect storm imo. I think it could be much worse.

Totally agree. If someone is willing to pay $100 for a J (and I certainly am), then it's not an issue at all. If they aren't , they can buy a baby I for $50.... or a baby H for $35. Not every rocket you launch has to go out of sight...

 

[cls]

Did bottled water survive when people were shocked at paying for something they get free from the tap?

Point! Especially after figuring out that we're paying 4 times as much for the water in 8ntge minimart, as we do for the gas at the pump!

 

[Steve Shannon]

I'd welcome more propellant options, both out of curiosity and because it might hedge against some chemical supply problems and prices, but I worry that alternative propellants would reopen the door to ATF meddling and legal trouble for manufacturers and customers of those alternatives. So far as I can tell, the ruling in the victorious TRA/NAR lawsuit only covered ammonium perchlorate. Is there guidance from the ATF elsewhere indicating this wouldn't be a problem?

No. I don’t know whether that would be an issue or not.

 

[AeroTech]

"Where'd he go?!?!?" ...... "Where'd whooooooooo goooooooo????" Mustangs on G80s

I've played this a few times at LDRS in the past. From about 25 years ago.
View attachment Customer Comment - SD 480p.mov

 

[kalsow]

Can HPR survive with $10 J motors?



Too many fliers, not enough fields?
Too many accidents, not enough safety-minded people?
Too much ATF attention, not enough flying under the radar?
... just wondering.

 

[jsdemar]

Can HPR survive with $10 J motors?



Too many fliers, not enough fields?
Too many accidents, not enough safety-minded people?
Too much ATF attention, not enough flying under the radar?
... just wondering.

I flew a $15 J last weekend. 1000Ns J1000. In somebody else's rocket. 45g's in a cardboard 4" rocket to 4700ft and it somehow stayed together.

 

[charrington]

Vern Estes & John Langford are smiling . . .

The "cost of living" is a double-edged sword . . . When prices increase, a Consumer's "net income" decreases ( less buying power ) . . . If you increase wages to offset the decrease, the cost to suppliers of raw materials, manufacturers, distributors, & dealers also increases . . . As a result, they increase prices . . . This is a "vicious cycle", with no end in sight.

Dave F.

What is your point? Do you believe aerotech’s employees do not deserve to be able to afford the cost of living?

 

[rfjustin]

I've played this a few times at LDRS in the past. From about 25 years ago.
View attachment 559585

 

[rfjustin]

What is your point? Do you believe aerotech’s employees do not deserve to be able to afford the cost of living?

It's remarkable that a lot of folks around here that have champagne taste on a beer budget are the same folks that are always railing on free market capitalism.

 

[ep29030]

Vern Estes & John Langford are smiling . . .

The "cost of living" is a double-edged sword . . . When prices increase, a Consumer's "net income" decreases ( less buying power ) . . . If you increase wages to offset the decrease, the cost to suppliers of raw materials, manufacturers, distributors, & dealers also increases . . . As a result, they increase prices . . . This is a "vicious cycle", with no end in sight.

Dave F.

It ends at death. Just remember--old is what you get, when you don't get dead.

 

[ep29030]

The average price per egg is about 50 cents, so that would be about 200 eggs per J.

Think about how expensive it has become to enter TARC or eggloft competitions. Rocket supplies up, eggs up 60%....

 

[Bill S]

Cw, it all adds up. Hope it works out for you.

 

[boatgeek]

Think about how expensive it has become to enter TARC or eggloft competitions. Rocket supplies up, eggs up 60%....

The key is to use Easter eggs weighted to the right mass for all test flights. Saves a lot of cleanup in off-nominal recoveries, too.

But to the point of this thread, people will find the point where the "price of fun" curve and the "value of fun" curve cross and fly there. If either one changes, then you'll have a shift in the market. Personally, I used to think that I'd fly a lot of L2 motors once I got my cert. Turns out I fly L2 once a year or so and more F and G than anything else. That's more about field availability and prep time than price, but price is certainly an issue.

 

[cls]

I'd welcome more propellant options, both out of curiosity and because it might hedge against some chemical supply problems and prices, but I worry that alternative propellants would reopen the door to ATF meddling and legal trouble for manufacturers and customers of those alternatives. So far as I can tell, the ruling in the victorious TRA/NAR lawsuit only covered ammonium perchlorate. Is there guidance from the ATF elsewhere indicating this wouldn't be a problem?

Here's an idea:. Look at the list that AP was removed from, and don't use any of those other chemicals.

 

[tsmith1315]

$100 IS a problem for some folks that just want to fly rockets. You reminding them that you have more money than them isn't exactly beneficial to anyone lol.

Thanks for recognizing that, Braden.

 

[AlexBruccoleri]

I flew a $15 J last weekend. 1000Ns J1000. In somebody else's rocket. 45g's in a cardboard 4" rocket to 4700ft and it somehow stayed together.

Cardboard does not get enough respect

 

[jderimig]

The key is to use Easter eggs weighted to the right mass for all test flights. Saves a lot of cleanup in off-nominal recoveries, too.

But to the point of this thread, people will find the point where the "price of fun" curve and the "value of fun" curve cross and fly there. If either one changes, then you'll have a shift in the market. Personally, I used to think that I'd fly a lot of L2 motors once I got my cert. Turns out I fly L2 once a year or so and more F and G than anything else. That's more about field availability and prep time than price, but price is certainly an issue.

^ This. Lately I have been getting more fun watching other people's projects. Less stress on me. My projects are stressful...lately.

 

[shawn_rocket]

I've played this a few times at LDRS in the past. From about 25 years ago.
View attachment 559585

"You got something that can make it turn around and come back..." man...still laughing...

 

[bad_idea]

Here's an idea:. Look at the list that AP was removed from, and don't use any of those other chemicals.

Here you go. Potassium and ammonium nitrates are both on the list (note that "explosive mixtures" seems to mean "burns fast under pressure" as far as the ATF is concerned, with the exception of AP, and that only due to the lawsuit, so pretty much any useful solid rocket fuel is going to be considered explosive if the oxidizer makes the list, at least unless ATF is sued again).

Interestingly, ammonium dinitramide - commonly touted as a less toxic alternative to ammonium nitrate, with potentially higher specific impulse too - is not on the list. However I believe ammonium dinitramide is still hideously expensive, and also, as soon as it comes into common use in the US the ATF will undoubtedly add it to the list along with every other oxidizer.

 

[speed]

Become a motor dealer and get your motors cheaper. Build and fly your own sugar motors at your own launch site. I really like to just kick back and watch/ help others with their projects. Plus, i have ex motor guys at my disposal and FAR near by! I'm still here, started in 1991!

 

[KenECoyote]

Me with Rocketry as my wife views it:

Actually, pretty much on the mark!

 

[charrington]

Think about how expensive it has become to enter TARC or eggloft competitions. Rocket supplies up, eggs up 60%....

Funniest thing I have seen all week LOL!

 

[Ez2cDave]

What is your point? Do you believe aerotech’s employees do not deserve to be able to afford the cost of living?

My "point" is that what I said applies to ALL areas of the Economy & Society, not just Aerotech's employee's.

The "bottom line" is that, whenever wages are increased, suppliers, employers, distributors, & vendors all increase their prices to offset their losses and maintain their profit margins. They would never "freeze prices" and "increase payroll expenses" ( raise wages ), which undermines their "bottom line".

There is no "cost of living utopia" . . . Also, remember that, when income increases, so does income tax !

What are your thoughts on how to remedy the situation and how much, at a minimum, do you think each employee should be paid, in order to be able to afford the cost of living ? ( This will vary, widely, across the country - Hawaii vs. Mississippi, for example ) . . . https://worldpopulationreview.com/state-rankings/cost-of-living-index-by-state

Thanks,

Dave F.

 

[StreuB1]

What I am most amazed at is how many people out here eat eggs. All people seem to talk about is eggs and gas.

All I know is am burning an N, 5 M's, some K's, and many little motors this season.

And getting a sausage and egg mcmuffin and my dunkin donuts covfefe on the way to each of those launches.

And I am by no means rich, wealthy, or anything of the sort.

I am though someone who lives within my means and puts my money and my time where it does me the most good. The past few years, my mental health has not been good. Because of that, having a smile on my face and being around like minded people I consider friends gives me something that money can not. Peace. For that, the money I spend on motors gives me something that is priceless. Sometimes that peace is in the form of driving to Tim's on a Saturday morning to pick up some odds and ends that I could have him ship, but its time well spent because I will hang around for a while and BS and chat and leave with a smile on my face and feel good for the rest of the day. Or it means driving to Bong to just fly maybe an H, G, and a Qjet in a few smaller rockets and get to hang out with Justin and the guys. Or head to a QCRC club launch to fly, anything really, and just hang out and talk to Adrian, Dave, and the guys.


You will spend whatever you need to in order to get out of it what you need to. It all comes down to that. If you need it, you will do it.

 

[DeltaVee]

What I am most amazed at is how many people out here eat eggs. All people seem to talk about is eggs and gas.

Eat enough eggs... you'll emit TONS of gas...

 

[KenECoyote]

 

[charrington]

We should try and get some more altitude records going for midpower.

My "point" is that what I said applies to ALL areas of the Economy & Society, not just Aerotech's employee's.

The "bottom line" is that, whenever wages are increased, suppliers, employers, distributors, & vendors all increase their prices to offset their losses and maintain their profit margins. They would never "freeze prices" and "increase payroll expenses" ( raise wages ), which undermines their "bottom line".

There is no "cost of living utopia" . . . Also, remember that, when income increases, so does income tax !

What are your thoughts on how to remedy the situation and how much, at a minimum, do you think each employee should be paid, in order to be able to afford the cost of living ? ( This will vary, widely, across the country - Hawaii vs. Mississippi, for example ) . . . https://worldpopulationreview.com/state-rankings/cost-of-living-index-by-state

Thanks,

Dave F.

Income taxes are in brackets which means you will never make less money when you make more money. Just the income that makes it into the higher bracket will be taxed according to that bracket, not your total income. So thats not an issue.

Im not going to beat the dead horse on the varying models of political economy but I will say this. Aerotech is not a fortune 500 company. I highly doubt that aerotech is price gouging its consumers. This is most likely an instance of ‘they must’ raise prices rather than ‘they can’. If the supplies to make motors costs more than before then they have to raise the price to match it. So my answer is for now; aerotech, cti, and Loki must do what they have to do to afford their expenses if we want to keep using their products. In the long term hopefully something will change where prices will drop or we are all in a better position financially.

 

[rfjustin]

What I am most amazed at is how many people out here eat eggs. All people seem to talk about is eggs and gas.

All I know is am burning an N, 5 M's, some K's, and many little motors this season.

And getting a sausage and egg mcmuffin and my dunkin donuts covfefe on the way to each of those launches.

And I am by no means rich, wealthy, or anything of the sort.

I am though someone who lives within my means and puts my money and my time where it does me the most good. The past few years, my mental health has not been good. Because of that, having a smile on my face and being around like minded people I consider friends gives me something that money can not. Peace. For that, the money I spend on motors gives me something that is priceless. Sometimes that peace is in the form of driving to Tim's on a Saturday morning to pick up some odds and ends that I could have him ship, but its time well spent because I will hang around for a while and BS and chat and leave with a smile on my face and feel good for the rest of the day. Or it means driving to Bong to just fly maybe an H, G, and a Qjet in a few smaller rockets and get to hang out with Justin and the guys. Or head to a QCRC club launch to fly, anything really, and just hang out and talk to Adrian, Dave, and the guys.


You will spend whatever you need to in order to get out of it what you need to. It all comes down to that. If you need it, you will do it.

And just like that, the universe has decided that we are having sausage muffins with egg, and coffee for breakfast at TWA in a few weeks. We shall produce many a fart at Bong on February 11th. Careful with the degassing though, in case you have one in the chamber!