Can HPR survive with $100 J motors?

[SolarYellow]

Of course, actually reduced the prices by quite a bit. The manufacturers have kept up with inflation and exceeded it since 2001 though. That is not taking into consideration how much chemicals have gone up supposedly. I don't blame the manufacturers for charging what they are for motors. It is just getting to be one heck of an expensive hobby to get into. You spend $150.00 on a reload and that $150.00 is literally burnt up in a few seconds.
If us guys that were in the hobby for years feel the way we do about the cost of motors now, think about someone interested in getting into the hobby after looking at the motor prices might feel about it.
https://www.usinflationcalculator.com/

The official inflation figures since 2001 have been artificially held low by offshoring and the ever-downward spiral of the Death of Quality destroying the value of hard goods. Pretty much any hard good that isn't evaluated based on the performance of batteries or microchips has gotten worse in the last 20 years, not better. It's pretty much not feasible to do rocket motors offshore. I haven't dug into it, but my understanding is that at least one company tried and had to stop due to poor quality of the goods causing problems.

 

[AeroTech]

The official inflation figures since 2001 have been artificially held low by offshoring and the ever-downward spiral of the Death of Quality destroying the value of hard goods. Pretty much any hard good that isn't evaluated based on the performance of batteries or microchips has gotten worse in the last 20 years, not better. It's pretty much not feasible to do rocket motors offshore. I haven't dug into it, but my understanding is that at least one company tried and had to stop due to poor quality of the goods causing problems.

Quest used to purchase its motors from China, but the problem was a huge increase in price, not quality.

 

[Neutronium95]

Apogee. $45.89. Plus shipping.

Well there's your problem. They used to sell some motors (I think the F20W 2 pack) at about a 50% markup over MSRP. It's less egregious now, but you don't shop there if you want to save money.


Edit: Here's a wayback machine link to October last year that shows they were charging $62 for 2 packs Econojet F motors, at a time when the MSRP was around $40. They've since reduced prices, but it's still about 10% over MSRP.

 

[Steve Shannon]

We can always need a new reference.

The second edition is only two years old, as I recall.

 

[Rob Campbell]

Yes. However, it may not survive skyrocketing prices for food, housing, and energy.

 

[KenECoyote]

Well, partly because we found better and faster ways to make them (less labor), reduced some material costs by purchasing in larger quantities, and reduced gross margins as a result of higher volume and competition.

We are all grateful for that!

 

[KenECoyote]

Yes. However, it may not survive skyrocketing prices for food, housing, and energy.

Level 2 & 3 skyrocketing!

 

[tsmith1315]

Yes. However, it may not survive skyrocketing prices for food, housing, and energy.

The threat to disposable income is a bigger concern, for sure.

But, this hobby (and Aerotech) has weathered hard economic times before. I have confidence both will continue on.

 

[KenECoyote]

 

[gdjsky01]

No John, it can not survive. AT and CTI are pricing themselves out of a job. It's hilarious. We have to make a profit! Rather than, "We have to figure out how to do this cheaper."

Idiots be damned! Families will simply decide. Spouses to be exact. You want to by a J or 100 bucks of groceries? Oh inflation (I am on my fourth or fifth inflation cycle - Dem or GOP - makes ZERO difference)? Horse hockey! $100 of groceries is still WAY more valuable than 2 seconds of thrust.

What I don't get is why either of them, AT and CTI (or Estes for that matter) don't get it? They look at cars I guess. Now we pay on average what a home cost 60 years ago (in some markets of course) for a car. So why wouldn't we pay $100 for a J? Well... because a car and a house last a lot longer!

Just a hunch... CTI I think is about to say hasta la vista to the hobby market. AT would not be far behind if run strictly as a business people. Gary I am sure has a soft spot for the hobby. So that won't happen. Forget J's. Think: $15 E's? Are you nuts!?

Estes? I think they are inflation/price proof up to BP D's. I can not tell you how many times a spoiled kid in a line to launch whines about dad buying another motor.

 

[NateB]

Put all together, including the value of your time, EX doesn't save much vs commercial motors. It is a heck of a lot of fun, and really deep learning in many ways.

I've said before that my first functional "c" size BP motor probably cost over $400 without even factoring time. Books, tools, chemicals, driving to events to meet up with mentors, all add up
Then there are the inevitable failures during the learning process, more $$ in supplies and time. Once dialed in, they are much cheaper, but probably a sunk cost in the end. Most important for me, is the enjoyment of the process. The learning and crafting is quite enjoyable to me and also allows me to stretch the hobby budget further for the time I spend on it.

 

[Ez2cDave]

Welcome back to BP motors, Boys . . . NAR Competition may be thriving, before long !

( Bruce Springsteen - "My Hometown" is playing, softly, in the background )

Dave F.

 

[KenECoyote]

I'd like to add that for me, this hobby isn't just about burning big motors.

Sure, that's hella fun lol, but back in 2020 I was suddenly and imo unfairly terminated, so I had limited income and it changed things for me...for the better!

I had more time than money, so I scratchbuilt some rocket ideas I had (using a Viking Bulk kit I got at Hobby Lobby on clearance) and I had a great time test launching them on small Estes motors.

I no longer had the excuse of "work has me too busy" and I started going to my local HP rocket club again after a 5-6 year hiatus and instead of a lot of work and stress prepping and launching my HP rockets...

I really enjoyed helping other club members (prepping, setup, tracking, retrieving, cleanup, etc.) and just watching the launches.

Now I plan to do that once in a while...relax and enjoy my time out there watching and helping others burn up their money for my entertainment and I'll return the favor if possible.

 

[cautery]

...get a motel for $300/night, cost of reloads is negligible. Well, not entirely.

$300 a night? For a motel?

I just rented a 3/2/2 house (AirBnB) for $110.00 a night ALL-IN.... Fully furnished and stocked with everything but food. Even had fresh ground coffee from beans, real cream, and real sugar....

 

[cls]

$300 a night? For a motel?

I just rented a 3/2/2 house (AirBnB) for $110.00 a night ALL-IN.... Fully furnished and stocked with everything but food. Even had fresh ground coffee from beans, real cream, and real sugar....

Where? Certainly not in CA or NV.

 

[cautery]

Where? Certainly not in CA or NV.

Texas.

$300 a night for a motel is ridiculous regardless of location.

I'll never voluntarily enter California again.
And for Arizona, Nevada, et al. launches, I will use the trailer.

 

[gdjsky01]

Where? Certainly not in CA or NV.

Oh pish tosh. I can stay near Morro Bay, a VERY nice little seaside place, on the Central Coast of CA, not far from Monterey either, for $70 a night.
Sure, its just a room, but I am not there to sit in a room. And if I INSIST on a home, which IMO is a dumb waste, I can stay for $123. 1.2 J's.

 

[cautery]

There goes this thread....

Nah, just added him to the ignore list.

 

[Cape Byron]

Sell me a J for $100? I'm in!

 

[Rocketjunkie]

I still have a single-use J100 from 1988.

H340 same age.

I132-15, IIRC 1990 next to a K550 case for size.

 

[gdjsky01]

Nah, just added him to the ignore list.

Thanks. Keeps me from adding you

 

[alexzogh]

Rocket related purchases and their high cost has been a funny subject between my wife and I for years.
Whenever she wants to buy something expensive, she just adds the words rocket motor in front of it. This year, she said “I’d love to get a rocket motor Nordic track treadmill”. Her new car was a rocket transporting Jeep Gladiator. My not-inexpensive barn construction is now the Rocket Barn…..
Man, I love this woman

 

[cautery]

Rocket related purchases and their high cost has been a funny subject between my wife and I for years.
Whenever she wants to buy something expensive, she just adds the words rocket motor in front of it. This year, she said “I’d love to get a rocket motor Nordic track treadmill”. Her new car was a rocket transporting Jeep Gladiator. My not-inexpensive barn construction is now the Rocket Barn…..
Man, I love this woman

I am similarly blessed to have a generally VERY understanding XYL.
She likes toys too.... just different ones.

 

[gdjsky01]

My wife has sat with me at Lucerne in 100F+ temps, 60+ MPH winds. She supports EVERY hobby I have. I am SMART enough to know when costs are getting out of hand. She would never ever say "Don't buy that". Even if she knew its not a good idea.

 

[charrington]

Yeah! You know what? I say @AeroTech should raise the prices higher! With all the labor Gary has to do on this forum I think he should make a list. Start sending invoices to people. Charging them for every thread about how their hobby rocket motors have gone up 10 dollars in the last 35 years. Listen @AeroTech, call me crazy but I think your workers should be able to afford the costs of living!

 

[GrouchoDuke]

I'm now in the drive-a-long-way-to-launches-and-happily-employed camp, so motor prices don't personally bother me yet. I'm realize I'm lucky. The gas for my truck for the round trip to my last launch cost way more than all the motors I burned there. I'm all for supporting our vendors with what they need to charge to keep their businesses and employees thriving with continued interest in our hobby.

Everyone has a budget, I get it. When I talk about this with people entering the hobby, I recommend enjoying the amounts and sizes of motors that doesn't hurt financially. You can launch even an F motor out of sight. Aerotech's little D motors are a ton of fun too.

I do love those $100 Js...

 

[cautery]

Yeah! You know what? I say @AeroTech should raise the prices higher! With all the labor Gary has to do on this forum I think he should make a list. Start sending invoices to people. Charging them for every thread about how their hobby rocket motors have gone up 10 dollars in the last 35 years. Listen @AeroTech, call me crazy but I think your workers should be able to afford the costs of living!

I have no particular stake in this discussion. I am so new, my perspective is essentially null.

But, and worth what you paid for it, HPR is a WHOLE lot more affordable than MOST of my other hobbies/pursuits.

I WILL eventually learn to build my own motors. It's the natural order of things.
But I have done some research and math.... Short of a $500k investment, I could never touch the price/performance that AT can offer. I'll happily pour as much money as I can muster for the hobby into AT as I can (via a dealer(s)).

HPR ain't better than sex, but it's on the same block. Thank you AT for making it possible!

 

[cls]

Oh pish tosh. I can stay near Morro Bay, a VERY nice little seaside place, on the Central Coast of CA, not far from Monterey either, for $70 a night.
Sure, its just a room, but I am not there to sit in a room. And if I INSIST on a home, which IMO is a dumb waste, I can stay for $123. 1.2 J's.

What rocket launches are held near Morro Bay?

Last time we stayed at a medium rate motel (last June, not naming the place in Fernley), we found bed bugs. Yuck! Not worth any $$ savings.

Do you stay at Ace Motel in Lucerne? No thanks.

 

[ac2fv]

I'm ok flying G-I motors... you can get altitude on a G or H with a smaller type rocket (PML Callisto or Ariel), do dual deployment, etc. It's all fun for me!
Scott

 

[BlackBrant2]

High power doesn't have to be J motors. I mostly fly 29mm.
I have plans to get L2 certified, but only to support the club. Even before this latest price increase I could not afford to fly more than 1 or 2 38mm motors a year.

I'm right there with you