Can AeroTech Mirage (Modified) Be Used For L2??

Discussion in 'High Power Rocketry (HPR)' started by maesoph, Mar 14, 2019.

Help Support The Rocketry Forum by donating:

  1. Mar 14, 2019 #1

    maesoph

    maesoph

    maesoph

    New Member

    Joined:
    Apr 1, 2018
    Messages:
    1
    Likes Received:
    0
    I've got an AeroTech Mirage that went CATO and destroyed the lower half of the rocket. It's originally made for 2G 29mm motors but I modified it to use 3 grain without issue. Instead of just repairing it, I decided to look at upgrading it so I could get my L2 with it also. I have the stuff to upgrade it to 38mm motors and use it for Level 2 certification. It's TTW fins and all, but still cardboard tubes, but pretty darn tough cardboard tubes.. Looking to launch with a J270 motor. Will this rocket survive???

    Mike
     
  2. Mar 14, 2019 #2

    Steve Shannon

    Steve Shannon

    Steve Shannon

    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 23, 2011
    Messages:
    4,552
    Likes Received:
    958
    I’m sure it could be made to work for the an L2 rocket, but I don’t know if I would feel comfortable doing it. I think the fins would be the potential failure point.
     
    tomsteve likes this.
  3. Mar 14, 2019 #3

    CoyoteNumber2

    CoyoteNumber2

    CoyoteNumber2

    Original San Diego High Power Rocketry

    Joined:
    Jan 30, 2009
    Messages:
    488
    Likes Received:
    28
    Run the Mirage fins through FinSim and see how the flutter and divergence velocities compare to your flight sims on a J270.
     
    tomsteve likes this.
  4. Mar 14, 2019 #4

    DaveW6DPS

    DaveW6DPS

    DaveW6DPS

    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 28, 2013
    Messages:
    279
    Likes Received:
    121
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Barstow, CA
    Pushing a low power rocket with a J motor is generally not a good idea. The Mirage is a long rocket with thin body tubes and I would not modify it for a J.

    If you cannot afford a suitable rocket, can you afford the motor prices for level 2?
     
    tomsteve likes this.
  5. Mar 14, 2019 #5

    Nytrunner

    Nytrunner

    Nytrunner

    Master of Rivets

    Joined:
    Oct 15, 2016
    Messages:
    4,018
    Likes Received:
    614
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Huntsville AL
    Cost could be a factor, but the OP may just be interested in taking on an interesting design and build challenge.

    To the OP, pay attention to the wiggle of the coupler joints. That can be the killer of long skinnies. If the tubes feel a bit thin, wouldn't hurt to stick extra coupler in the airframe down by the top of the motor mount.

    Whatever happens, you'll get some height on the J so a form of dual-dep and/or a tracker could save recovery trouble.

    Good luck!
     
    grouch likes this.
  6. Mar 14, 2019 #6

    blackjack2564

    blackjack2564

    blackjack2564

    Crazy Jim's Gone Banana's

    Joined:
    Jan 18, 2009
    Messages:
    8,621
    Likes Received:
    712
    Location:
    Savannah Ga
    Yes it will survive if you shorten it, cut fin tails off and DD it. Mine flew on J-350's no issue after mods.

    Edit: I did not use it for my L-2. I built a big 4inch DD paper rocket for that, a Binder Galaxy.

    I modified the Mirage , due to damage from bad flight. 2 fin tips broke after I stuck the landing in muddy field. Shortly after,gust of wind blew fincan over, breaking 2 fin tips off.
     
    Last edited: Mar 14, 2019
  7. Mar 14, 2019 #7

    tomsteve

    tomsteve

    tomsteve

    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 24, 2014
    Messages:
    704
    Likes Received:
    58
    it would be a great project but i highly encourage keeping an L2 cert a bit simpler.
    the loc precision 2.6" tubing is quite a bit tougher,too.
     
    DaveW6DPS likes this.
  8. Mar 14, 2019 #8

    Bat-mite

    Bat-mite

    Bat-mite

    Rocketeer in MD

    Joined:
    Dec 5, 2013
    Messages:
    9,356
    Likes Received:
    657
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Maryland
    If you want to fly Aerotech rockets, why get a level 2? Level 2 is for flying level 2 rockets.
     
    Andrew_ASC and DaveW6DPS like this.
  9. Mar 15, 2019 #9

    Andrew_ASC

    Andrew_ASC

    Andrew_ASC

    UTC SEDS 2017 3rd/ SEDS 2018 1st

    Joined:
    Sep 22, 2017
    Messages:
    3,330
    Likes Received:
    376
    Gender:
    Male
    AF8411BE-40CE-41F5-BAAF-2EC0D5F2755B.jpeg
    Not regretting buying a MAC Hyper 54 for an L2 cert later this year. It’s 54mm min diameter dual deploy and eats any J-L motor on the market. I tried modifying a Sandhawk kit for L2 and ended up being disappointed and lost confidence that a K motor wasn’t feasible. I later wanted a 54mm hole for L2 rockets.

    Jim says it can be done. The question is after your cert do you want more from the L2 impulse range? I’ll side with Batmite on this one. Why risk an expensive tracker and dual deploy altimeter in a lesser capable modified to marginal rocket?

    If you’re trying to L2 on a budget I have more respect for PVC tube fin builds. My opinion.
     
    Last edited: Mar 15, 2019
  10. Mar 15, 2019 #10

    levi seaton

    levi seaton

    levi seaton

    Member

    Joined:
    Sep 22, 2018
    Messages:
    15
    Likes Received:
    13
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Madison, ks
    Glass the fins. You can stiffen those tubes by rolling poster board on the inside.
     
  11. Mar 15, 2019 #11

    jjwb22101

    jjwb22101

    jjwb22101

    Flying on a student budget

    Joined:
    Jun 8, 2014
    Messages:
    68
    Likes Received:
    31
    Yes and no. If you rebuilt it with a proper 38mm motor mount (get some proper wood centering rings), figured out a way to strengthen the fins (probably replace them with glassed plywood or all-fiberglass fins), strengthen the body tubes (a number of methods have been suggested for this already), and get some longer couplers to prevent wiggle, it would probably hold together with a J270 or similar. Then you just have to figure out recovery from an apogee of in the 5-6k' range, which isn't trivial (I'm assuming you'll probably end up with something that weighs in the 1.5 kg neighborhood empty). You'll have to either use a JLCR or modify it for dual deploy, and you'll almost certainly want a tracker. At that point, I'm not sure it would be worth it for a cert flight. You'll probably end up spending just as much money on the project as you would if you had gotten a 4" kit and gone from there, and what you'd end up with would only somewhat resemble the original kit you started with. (I'm doing a somewhat similar project with an Estes Scion kit I got back when they were super cheap, and at this point the only things that haven't been swapped out for something beefier are the fins, which I'm fiberglassing)
     
  12. Mar 15, 2019 #12

    Wallace

    Wallace

    Wallace

    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 16, 2017
    Messages:
    1,198
    Likes Received:
    201
    Pretty much agree with all above. If your intent is to try to save $, I doubt it'll work out very well. On the other hand, if you're doing it to challenge yourself then have at 'er. It is a hobby after all...
     
    Bat-mite and Nytrunner like this.
  13. Mar 16, 2019 #13

    BSNW

    BSNW

    BSNW

    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 2, 2017
    Messages:
    222
    Likes Received:
    58
    Some Aerotech rockets most certainly can do a small J motor. I have launched larger motors on paper rockets with surface mounted basswood fins many times. Just because it goes faster does not mean it needs fiberglass, forged eye bolts, Kevlar, 1/2 thick fins and aerospace expoxy. Good Lord....at least it won't be a 9 pound sub-orbital capable rocket launched on a tiny J350. For comparison....there is a guy who I have seen (twice) launch a paper rocket, made with wood glue only with broad 1/8 ply fins....launch this thing (of beauty) on a long burn CTI L motor.....with no issues.

    IMO the culture in HP rocketry is speeding to "over build and over kill" on everything.
     
    grouch likes this.
  14. Mar 17, 2019 #14

    cbrarick

    cbrarick

    cbrarick

    Wildman CT

    Joined:
    Jan 23, 2009
    Messages:
    2,235
    Likes Received:
    99
    We routinely see I's and J's fly in a rocket made from the blue foam you can get at home depot - and that's his only building material in the rocket. He uses a teddy bear as nose weight. I LSO'd one of the first, and it had no name so I called it "Foamy" and now it, and it succeeding foam creations ( Foamy 2, etc.) are part of METRA and CATO lore

    So why not a paper rocket with a proper nose cone and some fins? the only mod I'd be tempted to make outside of the mmt would be to use tightbond to put it together with. http://www.rocketmaterials.org/datastore/fins/Fin_Cans/index.php
     
  15. Mar 17, 2019 #15

    Wallace

    Wallace

    Wallace

    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 16, 2017
    Messages:
    1,198
    Likes Received:
    201
    Link's no good?
     
  16. Mar 17, 2019 #16

    blackjack2564

    blackjack2564

    blackjack2564

    Crazy Jim's Gone Banana's

    Joined:
    Jan 18, 2009
    Messages:
    8,621
    Likes Received:
    712
    Location:
    Savannah Ga
    The OP hasn't been back to read replies since original post. Wasting our breath guys on him.
     
    C.O.B.H.C. likes this.
  17. Mar 17, 2019 #17

    Wallace

    Wallace

    Wallace

    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 16, 2017
    Messages:
    1,198
    Likes Received:
    201
    Damn...
     
  18. Mar 17, 2019 #18

    Nytrunner

    Nytrunner

    Nytrunner

    Master of Rivets

    Joined:
    Oct 15, 2016
    Messages:
    4,018
    Likes Received:
    614
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Huntsville AL
    I'm a proponent of woodglue wherever it will work, but I'll point out the. Irate has plastic fins. Hell need some sort of epoxy or plastic bonder for those.
     
  19. Mar 18, 2019 #19

    Initiator001

    Initiator001

    Initiator001

    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 19, 2009
    Messages:
    2,707
    Likes Received:
    12
    When AeroTech was developing it's line of kits, we spec'd the 2.6" tubing to the same standards as LOC.
     
    tomsteve and dhbarr like this.
  20. Mar 19, 2019 #20

    tomsteve

    tomsteve

    tomsteve

    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 24, 2014
    Messages:
    704
    Likes Received:
    58
    which helped me in rebuilding the booster of my mirage a couple of times. then when i hung it in a tree and it got soaked, i now have a loctech/aeroprecision mirage.:)
     

Share This Page