C11-0 Discontinued....

[wyldbill]

Looks as if Estes has discontinued the C11-0. Can't find it on their site or Hobbylinc and have seen them on closeout.

If this is old news, um... sorry

 

[Donaldsrockets]

I think Estes decided to discontinue these because of their unreliability to ignite an upper stage. If you ever looked at one of these, you would notice that they didn't have much propellant in them.

I launched two of these C11-0 booster motors in an Estes CC Express and both times it failed to ignite the sustainer motor and basically we all know what usually happens after a staging failure. LAWN DART!!!

However, Estes replaced my CC Express and they also advised me to try the D12-0 in the booster so I loaded it up with a D12-0/C11-7 and that did the trick with the C11-7 igniting right after burnout of the D12-0.

So, I think that it's a rather good idea that Estes decided to discontinue these motors but that's just my personal oppinion. Some may disagree with me.

Rest assured, the D12-0's are still available.

 

[UhClem]

This staging failure news is very interesting.

I tried using a C11-0 to C11-7 combo twice a couple of weeks ago. The upper stage lit in one of the two flights.

But the time that the upper stage lit is when I screwed up and installed the upper stage motor backwards. Interesting effect as there was a delay of about seven seconds and then a lot of smoke and noise at apogee but not much thrust. Then a lawn dart.

Installing the C11-7 the correct way wasn't much of an improvement. No ignition and another lawn dart.

I still haven't figured out how it is possible to lignite a C11-7 motor through the clay ejection cap but not through the nozzle.

Fortunately the Estes Delta Clipper is made of tough stuff and survived to fly again.

 

[Ryan S.]

I had a failure with one too, but they were cooll motors, its too bad they got discontinued

 

[wyldbill]

I'd imagine that they're more prone to premature separation as they've got a big air space, which acts as an air ram. Anyone try them in a gap-staged (and vented) scenario?

 

[shreadvector]

1) have you called them to confirm that they are actually "discontinued"? They could just be dropped by your retailers or they could have tens of thousands in the supply chain and not need to make any more for a year or so.

2) I've had zero failures. i just tape the motors together with regular cellophane tape - the way we multi-stages for millions of years. It worked for those air-filled 1/2A6-0 and A8-0 motors and it still works with B6-0 motors.

-Fred Shecter NAR 20117

Originally posted by wyldbill
Looks as if Estes has discontinued the C11-0. Can't find it on their site or Hobbylinc and have seen them on closeout.

If this is old news, um... sorry

 

[shockwaveriderz]

they are listed in the Estes 2004 catalog.....

 

[wyldbill]

Originally posted by shreadvector
1) have you called them to confirm that they are actually "discontinued"?

Nope. That's why I said "Looks as if". If you (or anyone) has info to the contrary, please share it.

 

[wyldbill]

Originally posted by shreadvector
2) I've had zero failures. i just tape the motors together with regular cellophane tape - the way we multi-stages for millions of years. It worked for those air-filled 1/2A6-0 and A8-0 motors and it still works with B6-0 motors.

I haven't either. I was just suggesting a possible cause for those who have had repeated problems. Perhaps their tape joints aren't as sound as yours.

I, for one, am (will be) sad that they are (might be) going away.

 

[wyldbill]

Called Estes, they said "it's in the new catalog, I don't think they're discontinued" [paraphrased]. Directed me to a few places online, including tower. Tower says they're discontinued. Draw your own conclusions.

 

[shockwaveriderz]

I think that means that TOWER has discontinued them, NOT that Estes has discontinued them....

GreatLakesHobbies has them:
https://www.greatlakeshobbies.com/

A2Z Hobbies has them:
https://www.a2zhobbies.com/Estes/Engines/

RedAroow Hobbies has them:
https://www.redarrowhobbies.com/estes_engines.htm

Al's Hobby Shop has them:
https://www.alshobbyshop.com/store/rockets.asp?catid=Singleuse&vendid=Estes

Commonwealth Displays has them:
https://www.commonwealth.net/rocketstore/rocketryframes.html

E-Hobbies has them:
https://www.ehobbies.com/rocketry-rocket-motors-large-size-motors.html

 

[n3tjm]

I do not think they are discontinued.

If you are staging them... either use scotch tape (some types are better then others, my favorite has nice thick plastic that stretches tight), or the tube coupler method with vent holes. The C11 has a lot of presure during staging, so it can blow the stages apart before igniting the sustainer. My first three Glotova flights failed to stage with C11-0's for this very reason.

 

[eugenefl]

Originally posted by wyldbill
I'd imagine that they're more prone to premature separation as they've got a big air space, which acts as an air ram. Anyone try them in a gap-staged (and vented) scenario?

Yep - I use C11-0's in my gap staged <a href="https://www.fliskits.com/services/dom/2004/02feb/cebollero_terrier.htm">Terrier/Sandhawk</a> all the time. I've probably flown it about 8 times now with never once a problem staging. I personally like the C11-0. It gives the rocket a quick punch off the pad just to get the rocket moving.

 

[shreadvector]

When a store (such as Michaels Craft Stores) drops an item from their inventory, they say that it has been discontinued. Wal-Mart even puts a little "D" on the shelf tag. That does NOT meant hat the manufacturer has discontinued making that product or that other stores do not still carry that product.

The C11-0 is till alive, in production, and yeilds a serious profit margin for Estes.

Originally posted by wyldbill
Called Estes, they said "it's in the new catalog, I don't think they're discontinued" [paraphrased]. Directed me to a few places online, including tower. Tower says they're discontinued. Draw your own conclusions.

 

[Donaldsrockets]

Ok, maybe I made a mistake here. They may still be in production but I'll never use them again unless I want to launch my Art Applewhite 6 inch 24mm delta saucers in my front yard. They work great in apps like that.

On the other hand, I'll NEVER use them for staging again. From now on, my CC Express and Comanche 3 will only get a D12-0 in the booster.

I've heard of other people having success with them but for some reason, I didn't

When it comes to altitude, the CC Express gets about 1,200-1,300 feet with the D12-0/C11-7 but after all, I did recover it with no problems.

 

[Chr$]

I've burned about 7 of them. Love them. Sorry to see them go.

Most were burned in a scratch built centuri-style vent staged rocket.

The few in my son's CC express worked well too, but we vented that as well. We still tape the motors together in the CC, but I think the vents help release pressure enough as the tape burns thru to keep them together long enough to lite number two.

 

[wyldbill]

Update on this...

From Scott Hansen on the OldRockets Group...

*********************************

From: Scott D. Hansen [mailto:scotth@******.com]
Sent: Wednesday, February 16, 2005 5:37 PM
To: OldRockets@yahoogroups
Subject: [OldRockets] Now OOP Estes Items


The following are no more from Estes. I got this info from my hobby
industry insider. There may still be stock of these items at distributors
and/or hobby shops. Estes is no longer producing them though.

0834 - XRay
1295 - Mean Machine
1380 - Phoenix
1407 - Stars & Stripes Starter Set
1474 - Mega Maxx Starter Set
1807 - Snitch RTF
1952 - V2
1960 - Nova Payloader
2040 - Blurzz Red Menace Dragster
2041 - Blurzz Blue Storm Dragster
2042 - Blurzz Green Mantis Dragster
2075 - ARV Condor
2158 - AGM 57X Heatseeker
2162 - Big Daddy
2167 - Mercury Redstone
2172 - Monarch
2175 - Nemesis
2180 - Chrome Domes Silver Series
<B>1621 - C11-0 (appears in catalog, but not on price sheet)
1624 - C11-7 (appears in catalog, but not on price sheet)</B>


-bill

 

[pr_rocket04]

Yes C's have problems igniting upper stages.

What I do is actually take E9-4's and stage them to a D12 or another E9. All one needs to do is slowly scrape the loose clay-type material out of the ejection end until you expose the layer of blackpowder ejection charge. No, this will not increase the chance of a cato whatsoever so don't think this is a bad idea. As long as you've done your math and looked at an E9's thrust profile to know it will lift your rocket properly, and provide a long enough coast time, your good to go. I use a good overlapping layer of package tape so the seal isn't broke easily, and sustainer ignition will always occur with a nice pop. I've even staged F21-4's to E9's. It will give a much more dramatic flight seeing your rocket coast and then ignite stage 2.

 

[DPatell]

That is considered modifying a motor. You may not fly modified motors at NAR or Tripoli sanctioned Commercial launches.

 

[Turbo Mojo]

Will a c6-0 ignite a D or C11 engine?? Jw'in because that would be a cool combo. THe second stage would FLY.

 

[pr_rocket04]

Thrust would be wasted lifting the heavier rocket...think, a C6 is roughly only half the initial thrust of a D11.

 

[Turbo Mojo]

Yes but think about it, a slow lift off, just to get it off the pad, then the second stage just blows away...i think it would create some sweet looking flights...

 

[Turbo Mojo]

Im gonna build my Renegade like this, changing the second stage to a d size mount. This will be a sweet lil rocket...

 

[shreadvector]

When a rocket leaves the launch rod slow, it can severely weathercock. When multi stage rocket is moving slow at staging it will severely weathercock AND it will also "kick" off at a random direction as the lower stage blows off.

Unsafe and often results in horizontal powered rocket flight. "Horizontal" can mean into or just above the ground (give it +/- 45 degrees of true horizontal as a rough estimate).

Originally posted by Turbo Mojo
Yes but think about it, a slow lift off, just to get it off the pad, then the second stage just blows away...i think it would create some sweet looking flights...

 

[astronboy]

I just picked up some C11-0s at my local Hobbytown today. They have a while pile of 'em. I am guessing that there is still a bunch in the pipeline.

Heck, I can still buy A10-0s at one of my local hobby shops. (and I have cleaned him out twice!!)

Phred