# BullPup clones

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#### BobH48

##### Well-Known Member
I had bought an Estes BullPup about 10 years ago and started to build it but it ended up sitting in a drawer until recently.

I just finished it but while I was at it, I made a couple more of them

The top one in the picture is the kit. The next two are BT-50 sized, one for an 18mm motor and the other for a 13mm motor.

The last one is a BT-20 sized one for a 13mm motor

#### BobH48

##### Well-Known Member
Here is a picture of the back of the two mid sized ones.

#### sandman

##### Well-Known Member
Bob,

Welcome to the forum...yer getting off on the right foot!...PICTURES!!!

Really nice models. I'm especially drawn to 13mm ones.

You will also find there are a lot of us here that do just what you did... have a favorite model and make every size you can.

Next ya gotta make some bigger ones...2.6", 3", 4"...

Do a search...there are lots and lots of bullpups in here!

sandman

#### BobH48

##### Well-Known Member
Sandman,

Yup, on my list of things to do, a couple of upscales!

I'm 16 DAYS older than you are.

Bob

#### BobH48

##### Well-Known Member
Here is the picture I ment to post.... Less glare.

#### sandman

##### Well-Known Member
OMG!!!

There is actually someone in this forum older than me!!!

sandman

#### Peter Alway

##### Well-Known Member
OK. I'll post my pet rant. Rather than trying to upscale the Estes kit, why not try to make an accurate Bullpup at a larger scale. This way you won't be just amplifying all the errors in the Estes kit. <img src="https://yellowjacketsystems.com/alway/Thumbnails/thubullp.gif">

Here is a drawing of the real thing:

https://yellowjacketsystems.com/alway/images/bullpup.gif

#### bsexton

##### Well-Known Member
Even though Peter is correct about the errors with the Estes Bullpup I still love the kit for some reason. I have plans for a 4" diameter upscale which Sandman made the tailcone for -- still haven't gotten around to that one yet!

Welcome to TRF!

#### BobH48

##### Well-Known Member
Peter,

That's a cool drawing of the Bullpup.

I knew that the Estes kit was a "semi scale" but didn't realize how far off it was.

I just might try to make an accurate one but I know that I'll probably get real A.R. about it and take forever on the details.

That said, I'll probably just upscale the kit too.

Bob

#### Stones

##### Well-Known Member
Originally posted by Peter Alway
OK. I'll post my pet rant. Rather than trying to upscale the Estes kit, why not try to make an accurate Bullpup at a larger scale.
...
Peter...does this fit the bill?

4" scratchbuilt AGM12-C

#### carldoc

##### Well-Known Member
Nice litter of "Puppies"!

#### Ryan S.

##### Well-Known Member
Originally posted by sandman
OMG!!!

There is actually someone in this forum older than me!!!

sandman
LOL!!!!!!!

#### Micromeister

##### Micro Craftman/ClusterNut
TRF Supporter
While your 4 bull pups are nicely done, I have to go with Peter on this one. It has always bothered me that we seem to Up and Downcale very bad examples of real vehicles. Estes bull-pup and Jawhawk to name just a couple.
Now that the internet has SO much scale data available.. it's pretty easy to get our models in much better scale

Sandman: guess 48 was a very good year

Hope this one is a little more accurate Pete, I tried to simulate the asymmetric tailcone and fin tip folds... What a bear

#### BobH48

##### Well-Known Member
While I agree that it's nice to have accurate scale models, I'm just starting to build rockets again after a 30+ year absense and I just want to build a few so I can have something to launch.

I bought the Bullpup on an impulse about 10 years ago, started to construct it and it sat partially built in a drawer until about a month ago.

I dug it out and finished it and then found a box of parts that I bought in the 70's and started to make a few more.

If I put too much effort into making a scale model, I probably wouldn't fly it because I wouldn't want to lose it.

These have a "sorta scale" look, didn't take much time or money to build and if I launch them and never see them again, the emotional investment was small and I'll get over it.

#### pdooley

##### Well-Known Member
Originally posted by BobH48
I dug it out and finished it and then found a box of parts that I bought in the 70's and started to make a few more.
For God's sake, DON'T build stuff you bought in the 70's until you check it's value on Ebay!!

#### Stones

##### Well-Known Member
BobH...
I think your 4some of "pups' look great and I'm sure you'll have a good time flying them. No need to "defend" yourself, so to speak.
As much as I like to get things as close to "scale" as I can, including markings and the like, it's sometimes hard to attain the level of accuracy one wants with the info that's out there. And, if you can get that "perfect" scale build done, it's usually plenty hard to send it off without worrying about all the time and effort that goes into it.

#### BobH48

##### Well-Known Member
Originally posted by pdooly

For God's sake, DON'T build stuff you bought in the 70's until you check it's value on Ebay!!
I just have a box of parts... Body tubes, nose cones, transitions, rings, parachutes, etc.... I have a few complete kits, but they all have been opened.. I thought only unopened kits had any value.

#### sandman

##### Well-Known Member
Bob,

Glad you're back into the hobby.

Don't mind Peter. Scale to him is....well...a religion. Or maybe it's genetic

But we still love him.

sandman

#### pdooley

##### Well-Known Member
Originally posted by BobH48
I have a few complete kits, but they all have been opened.. I thought only unopened kits had any value.
Depends on the kit. The desirables such as Mars Lander, Interceptor, etc. sell for big money opened if they are complete.
There is currently even a completly built Interceptor on Ebay right now for $25 with 3 days left. #### ymj365 ##### Active Member A partially built (actually, from the pix, looks to be mostly built) original Estes Orbital Transport (K-42) went for$40 today.

(The Orbital Transport was the second or third kit I built way back in the mid-70's... it's always been a special favorite of mine. I'm hoping that when my ex-wife finally cleans out the storeroom in what is now her basement, my old toys (in particular, my rockets) will be found. I doubt it, but I can hope.)

Man oh man do I wish I had gotten back into model rocketry about 2 years ago and had the foresight to buy 100 or so Oribital Transport kits... they go for upwards of \$40 each (plus shipping) on eBay. Ah well, I'm almost always a dollar short and/or a day late; such is life.

#### BobH48

##### Well-Known Member
Well, no Orbital Transport kits here. I bought one as soon as they were available and built it right away.

I have only flown it maybe 1/2 dozen times when conditions were right (no wind) and only on B6-4, I think. Didn't want to lose it.

I only need to replace the old dried out shock cord and it will be ready to go.

It flew great if I remember correctly. Kind of arched a little on the way up but the glider had a nice flat wobbly glide.

What I do have is:

Honest John
Goblin
Sprint
Nighthawk

Partially built:

Sky Dart
Shrike

#### Micromeister

##### Micro Craftman/ClusterNut
TRF Supporter
Now yer talkin Bobh48:
Like sandman said, it's great to have you back building models. didn't mean the comments as a knock just a suggestion..to everyone Up and downscale stuff like the OT, nighhawk, Goblin, Der Red Max and other Estes or others designed rocket all ya want.. But if it's supposed to be a model of a real vehicle or missile please take some time to get them a least close to scale.
Sorry; guess i'm pretty much a Scale purest also
John

#### BobH48

##### Well-Known Member
Originally posted by Micromister
Up and downscale stuff like the OT, nighhawk, Goblin, Der Red Max and other Estes or others designed rocket all ya want.. But if it's supposed to be a model of a real vehicle or missile please take some time to get them a least close to scale.
So I can't up and downscale anything "real", only things that are "unreal"???

I must have forgot the disclaimer:

"The rockets depicted in this thread are purely works of fiction intended for the enjoyment of the viewing audience. Any resemblance to actual rockets, living or dead, is unintentional and entirely coincidental."

#### Peter Alway

##### Well-Known Member
Being a scale purist can be a vice of mine. Funny thing is that I'm not nearly as much of a scale purist as some people think. I just think that deviations from scale should be based on practicalities of building or a deliberate choice to build something creative, rather than from following bad information by scaling up a kit.

For instance, the PML and Estes AMRAAM kits all have 4:1 ogive nosecones. The real cones were much stubbier. If you build, say a BT-50 AMRAAM, it would be no harder to use a closer nose cone, like an Alpha nose, rather than the longer 4"-long one, and you'd get a more accurate model.

Now, I fully appreciate that compromises are necessary in scale modeling, and I don't mean to harangue anyone who builds their V-2 with the wrong curvature of boattail. I've been devoting my life for 15 years trying to get people to actually build scale models without being intimidated. There is no law that says that an Aerobee with a nose that is 15% too short is an abomination. Heck, I will be kitting a Saturn V with oversized fins (nose weight for accurate fins would be prohibitive). It's just that people need to be aware that you can't trust a flying model kit to be an accurate source of data on the real thing. For whatever reasons--compromises for stability, simplicity of construction, mistakes on the part of the kit designer, or use of pre-existing molded parts--most flying model rocket scale kits are not particularly accurate.

So don't let me discourage anyone. I'm just saying that if you get a mind to build a scale model, eye the existing kits with suspicion.

#### BobH48

##### Well-Known Member
OK so maybe I took offense where none was intended.

I was totally unaware of any scale data when I built them.

I had also made downscales of the Estes Phoenix but I am now reluctant to post them because I don't know how close it was to scale and don't want to catch any flak. Even so, I used parts that I already had so the nose cone shapes aren't exactly the same on each model.

Right now I am just trying to build up a collection of rockets to launch. I have only making rockets again for a couple of months and I have already lost 5 of them.

Well, 3 of them weren't a surprise.... That old equation

Maximum Motor + Light Airframe + Small Field = Missing Model

#### Peter Alway

##### Well-Known Member
Originally posted by BobH48

I had also made downscales of the Estes Phoenix but I am now reluctant to post them because I don't know how close it was to scale and don't want to catch any flak.
The nose cone on the Estes kit is too long as I recall, so yeah, I'd probably give you flak.

But it would be *friendly* flak, Right?

Go ahead and show the pictures, and I promise to shut up.

#### bsexton

##### Well-Known Member
What Peter said...this is a very friendly group of people that sometimes are passionate about certain topics -- that's OK. This group also loves pictures so please post away. I personally love your Estes Bullpup clones so I know I would like the Phoenix ones just as much!

#### Micromeister

##### Micro Craftman/ClusterNut
TRF Supporter
Absoutely! Always friendly flak!
Sometimes we can't exactly communicate our intent in a short note such as these. We really shouldn't take things out fo context than be offended.
Sorry if my comments offended, they were not necessarly directed your way. As I said in the statement before your out of context quote, your Pups are very nicely done models of a model.

My reference to up and down scaleing were more a general suggestion to the masses hoping folks will take advantage of the limitless DATA available to everyone on the net.
Build what ever you like, I guess I just assume if your building rockets you're at least aware of which ones are fun futuristic fantasy designs and which are supposed to be scale.. or semi-scale models of actual vehicles.
We want lots more people to build and fly scale models, that was the only intent of my earlier comments.

As far as your pheniox models. I have and fly an estes phenoix, I just refer to it as a stand-off scale. the further away you stand-off the better it looks again trying to be funny...

#### Micromeister

##### Micro Craftman/ClusterNut
TRF Supporter
Bob48:
I ment to attach this page in the previous post. It's the whole Bull-pup family, the copy may be to poor a res. for reading I had to really lower it to get it in here. I'd be happy to e-mail you a high res. copy if your interested.
That's what we're about on this forum, sharing the stuff, Data, Ideas and Photo's we have with whoever needs or wants it

#### CTimm

##### Well-Known Member
Originally posted by Peter Alway
It's just that people need to be aware that you can't trust a flying model kit to be an accurate source of data on the real thing.
I know of a few scale kits that can be trusted to be an accurate source of data on the real thing!!!!!!

Most are of rockets.
One is of a missile.

CTimm