Bulk Packs

[jflis]

The question has come up a few times and I thought it would make a good thread to talk about bulk packs and FlisKits, in light of our recent class with a proto-type Flea Educational Bulk Pack.

Plans aren't final. in fact, we're meeting today to discuss as this first-pass at bulkpacking has taught me a great deal that we need to understand.

Right now we're talking about bulk packing the Flea, Overdrive, Corona (for Skill Level 2) and a new rocket, tetatively called the Rhino.

The Rhino will be a large, bertha type rocket to allow for a Skill Level 1 rocket with some size and heft to it to allow for low power launching in smaller fields without loosing it (the Flea, even with an A motor goes VERY high)

It would also provide a SL1 rocket with a parachute.

My next note will include current detail ideas.

 

[jflis]

Currently, the way we're approaching bulk packing is this:

Min number would be 10 or 12, with a specific price for incremental add-on kits (eg: if you need 18, you can buy the 12 pack plus 6, you don't have to buy two 12 packs and have waste.

Individual kit cost would be greatly reduced as there is much less packing (no individual bags, no header card, etc).

Orders would have to be received on school or youth group letterhead with a shipping address to match.

Bulk packs would include enough parts for the specified number of kits, including enough fin pattern sheets and decals. There would be one set of instructions and one set of the Hints & Tip sheet for the teacher to reproduce (again, to help save costs that we can pass on to the teacher)

We would also include copies of the NAR safety code, order forms and catalogs for FlisKits.

There would also be a defined package of "spare parts" to help replace items that are easily lost or damaged during construction (for example, I had 3 students glue the motor casing in the body tube trying to install the engine block).

There would also be education material provided (parts of a model rocket, model rocket in flight, prepping for flight, etc) that can be made into overheads for teaching aids.

these are all just first thoughts. but we are *going* to do educational bulk packs. real soon too *S*

thoughts? recommendations?

jim

 

[loopy]

I'd hazard a guess that you will soon be selling alot of kits. Although, I wonder if people would shy away from the flea as a bulk pack just because they would want to be able to recover their rockets fairly easily, and the flea is close to a "fire and forget" type model... lol

Mark

 

[rocket trike]

Hello this sounds like a great deal. Let me know when you get them going. Will Rocket clubs that do workshops to get people invovle with rocketry be able to get them to.

Thank You
Tom

 

[bmhiii]

Jim,

Sounds great. I like the idea of keeping the costs way down. My wife is a teacher and has told me about the total lack of funds they have to work with. She said teachers spend a lot of their own money during a school year for materials.

I read the article about you going to the class room and talking rocketry to the kids. Would three engines fly a rocket to Venus?

I admire what you are doing for the kids, you've got to feel proud. Keep up the good work and share some of the stories with us.

bmhiii

 

[Matt]

hey jflis i was wndering even though it aint out yet what the price will be for the nomid it looks real kool

 

[jflis]

actually, because we set the Flea (and Overdrive) up with smallish streamers, you don't really loose that many... i've got two of each and have flown them all many times.

You can launch and land a Flea on an A8-3 in a small softball type field with no problems retrieveing it.

I would want rocket clubs who are teaching rocketry building classes to be able to get them. We would have to have some restrictions. We do *not* want this to be abused as a way for groups to get cheap kits, as that is not the intent. The intent is to provide a low cost way for educators (clubs, schools, youth groups) to be able to introduce youngsters to rocketry.

With respect to clubs, NAR sections would be easy, because we would accept orders on their club stationairy with their section number. Other clubs are encouraged to contact us and we will work with them. Again, the whole point here is to ENABLE rocketry growth. We (FlisKits) won't be making much money on these things... *S*

BMHII: i'm a teacher too. I'm not a "teacher" in the sense of someone who devotes their life to it. But I have taught many subjects in a lecture or short-term form. I am also very close to *education* having held elected office in the education areana so I am VERY familiar with their financial short comings. Thank you for the good words!

MATT: as for pricing... well i'm frustrated that we don't have that up yet. we've yet to get firm pricing on a couple of components and, thus, can't set pricing yet. Stay tuned for early this coming week...

 

[jetra2]

After reading through this thread, I had an idea. How about pre-sealed nosecones? This is because I have noticed that the sealing of the balsa parts takes the longest amount of time, and have taught a rocketry class myself, I would like to see something that takes the majority of time spent finishing the rockets minimized.

Any idea of when these are going to ship?

Jason

 

[jflis]

Jason,

we would be unable to do any pre-sealing on nose cones (or any other balsa) as it is cost prohibitive. You are correct that this is one of the most time consuming and, while it may be a distastefull task for many, I doubt many would be willing to pay us to do it for them...

As it is, our margins on balsa parts is incredibly small, just from stock. This is something that we are looking at long term solutions, but that will involve a substantial influx of capital.

As for educational bulkpack shipping, that is still up in the air. In a less formal manner, if there is someone looking for bulk packs for educational purposes, we will deal with them on a one on one basis right now.

jim

 

[airforce]

Jetra,
That's part of the modeling experience, or I think it is. I can't paint a picture because I'm not artistic but I can put a model together and do the steps required to make a finished model. I understand that some just don't like the building part, like my 13 year old but I get a good feeling after I've put the time into making that nose cone as good as I want it to be.
I've been in a hurry before so I just painted it without filler or any prep. It flew and I got it done quicker but now I fill and sand a couple times and the paint. I like the results better but that's what makes modeling great, you can choose how the end product will come out.
It's a neat thing, this modeling, you get out of it exactly what you're willing to put into it and that seems to be exactly how it should be.
Good question.
Randy

 

[Rocket_Russ]

Jim-

Wish I'd seen this thread before now. I've got some comments, espcially now that I've built several FlisKit's and reviewed the OverDrive on EMRR.

First off, I commend you on creating a bulk pack, but I know you are in a tough spot on pricing since Estes and other manufacturers price their kits so low. I bought a bulk pack of X-Ray rockets for my son's birthday party and they were around $3.00 a kit. Cheap, but they don't hold together real well. We have had to rebuild both of my sons kits, as their cheap shock cord mounts failed, and the cords were way too short anyway. Lasted one launch.

I love my OverDrive rocket, it's built sturdy, has great components, fly's high, but it would be really tough for first time rocketry students to do a good job on the fins, cause theres just too many of them. You even have to glue the eight fins together to make four final fins, so I'd consider it more of a skill level 2 kit. That external shock cord assembly may give a few students trouble as well, I don't know.
Another reason: OverDrive doesn't include decals. Kids love putting decals on rockets because it gives a more professional look, even when fins are on crooked!

For a first bulk kit, I'd recommend packing up the Flea or maybe your suggestion of a bigger "Big Bertha" type rocket. The fins are simpler. The Flea is a stable, easy to build rocket that won't get lost easy, due to the streamer. I has some nice decals. Theres no complicated engine mount to assemble, so assembly is still easy for a 1st timer. I bet it's cost effective to manufacture, too.

That's my thouhts, at least on those two kits.

 

[jflis]

Your thoughts are most important to us (as others here will attest)

I agree concerning the Overdrive. I still beleive it can be a Skill Level 1, but real close to a "2". We had even considered having "half skills", which would make the Overdrive a Skill Level 1.5

As our fleet grows larger, we may actually do that. It would be a good indicator that a particular kit is suitable for someone looking to move up into the next skill level. Such "half skill" kits would be the bridge from one skill level to the next.

We also understand the desire for decals. Frankly, it's all a cost issue. And while Estes and the like can kill us on price, they don't *touch* us on customer service nor on kit quality and both of these items are only going to get better as time goes on.

Also, the larger kit that we are talking about will have two things to consider. 1) it will have laser cut fins, easing assembly and 2) it will have a motor mount, complicating assembly.

Between the Flea and this new kit (Rhino) you can choose between "easy engine mount and cut your own fins" or "complicated engine mount and laser cut fins".

One consideration for the Overdrive, that I will bring up at my next meeting, would be to price laser cut fins for the Overdrive to help ease *its* complexity. The Flea will remain as it, to provide fin cutting skills before moving on to Skill Level 2 kits.

keep watch though, it's gonna be an exciting year!
jim

 

[sandman]

Jim,

I have a few thoughts on bulk pack, having done some rocketry classes.

1.) You have to use a model that is durable in order to sustain the interest and keep the student on track to continue with the hobby. What I mean is a larger rocket such as the Big Bertha...maybe a "Midi-Bertha with a BT-60 body (big enough for small hands) and the Deuce's Wild nose cone.

They loose interest if the model disapears too easily (I've never lost a Big Bertha) or if it's just too flimsy to hold up for more than one launch.

2.) Provide some, (one set for the teacher to copy and hand out), technical data sheets. Especially on stability. Note the center of gravity and the center of pressure on your particular model.

Tone it down a little bit, no calculus...but don't "dumb it down". These kids are sharp! You would be amased at how much they know.

3.) NO PLASTIC FIN UNITS!!! Thru the wall fins wouldn't be that hard for you to provide, it would be very easy for the students to install, and would maintain alignment.

4.) Provide some extras, such as, a printed sheet of canopies, windshields, fin pods...you get the picture.

5.)Note the center of gravity in your "tips" sheet so the students can add things like wings and stuff (ala the Interceptor or some of the cooler kits Estes came up with in the 60's and 70's) and know enough to keep the model stable.

I figured out these last ideas by using the old Estes Venom bulk packs (no longer available!) which had TTW fins and the cool "Argosy" windshield nose cone.

The kids came up with some really cool designs too!

6.) Lastly "parachutes" kids love parachutes much more than streamers.

My two cents.

sandman

 

[jetra2]

I absolutely agree with you sandman! Rockets that keep the interest alive like the Big Bertha are EXCELLENT for rocket classes. I personally have only taught one class myself and we built Alpha's. It took so long to build them that I sent the rocket home with them and they finished them. I want to see somee Fliskits Bulk Packs. Priced right, I would grab them right off.

To let you all know what I would consider is this.

1. I charged twenty dollars for my class. This fee bought them the rocket, two motors, and my time and energy. If I can keep it at this and buy a high quality kit
I would be very pleased and thankful.

2. I am looking to start my next rocket class up sometime this summer. When is the next product announcement Jim?

3. I'd like to keep the rocket simple, with a minimum of construction tools and/or jigs.

Thanks,
Jason

 

[sandman]

Gee, I never thought about charging for the class.

sandman

 

[jflis]

all good comments and all will play a part in our bulk packs.

oh, and folks, don't *wait* for an announcement. An announcement will come after we've dotted all the 'i's and crossed all the 'T's, but we can and will work with you on a case by case basis for bulk packs for most any existing kit.

For example, the Flea, bulk packed (eg: no individual bag, no cover art, no header tag, one set of instructions and tip sheet) will run you about $5 a kit (more or less) with a minimum of 12 and no maximum (eg: if you want 17, you can buy 17, you don't have to buy two 12 packs...)

We don't have a lot in the way of "educational material" to include, but that will come before announcement. Providing "solid" but simple aerodynamic data sheets is a great idea and will go on our list. If you are prepared to generate most (not all) of your educational presentation materials, we can help you right now. If you are doing this in the summer, we may be all set.

I have included an image which is a sneak peek at the Rhino. (NOTE the nose cone profile. The shorter one (Ogive) is the Deuce nose. We are considering a more parabolic nose for this kit).

The fins shown will be laser cut. They will be designed such that 3 other fin designs (that will be provided) can be cut from the laser cut fins (so that the class can choose a different look, if they desire). The other fin patterns will include Trapizoid, Parabolic and Swept-Parabolic.

We will also be including one cluster kit to allow one of the kits provided to be assembled as a 3 engine cluster. For this bulk pack, we would also entertain educators who wanted them ALL to be cluster, but with an added cost.

Due to popularity, we would probably also include some peel-n-stick decals to dress it up. I hadn't considered other types of decoration (as mentioned by sandman), but it's a great idea!

We don't have a cost for this kit, but in bulk pack it should be less than $8 (hopefully a *lot* less, but I really can't say right now)

This kit would come with a parachute that can be assembled as a 16". 12" or 8" (our standard printed parachute)

Overall, the model will stand 24.5" tall and be based on the BT-60.

 

[jetra2]

I hate to say this, but I don't like those fins. If the rocket is to be called the Rhino, shouldn't it have fins that kinda thick vertically and mean looking? How about something forward swept, like claws or something?

Just my opinion,
Jason

 

[sandman]

OK, One con so far...I give a pro on the fins...kinda reminds me of the "Astron Cobra"

Make 'em thick! like 1/8" for fat little uncoordinated fingers!...the kids fingers...not MINE!

OK...mine too!

sandman

 

[jetra2]

Ok... I took the time to think up a couple of alternate fin designs...even though it probably won't matter.

I took Jim's picture, and erased one fin. Then I thought of three new designs, leaving the other on for comparison. Here's the first of three. This one might be best to keep it a SL1 kit.

This one is kind of like the old Heliocopter's fins

 

[jetra2]

This one is designed to have a "sharp" look to it.

 

[jetra2]

And the final one is an enlarged version of the second one.

 

[jflis]

Originally posted by sandman
OK, One con so far...I give a pro on the fins...kinda reminds me of the "Astron Cobra"

Make 'em thick! like 1/8" for fat little uncoordinated fingers!...the kids fingers...not MINE!

OK...mine too!

sandman

reminds you of the Cobra, eh??? hhhmmm, imagine that.... hhhmmmmm

YOu gave a "pro on the fins", but said "one con so far", what's the con??

they will be thick, at *least* 1/8" Also, this beast is quite large. I've attached a pdf of the bottom that shows it full size (the fins are huge *S*)

And, other important news. I just got off the phone with Brian and we have interupted our release schedule and have move the Rhino (and associated bulk pack) up a few notches in rotation (so it should be next). It's possible that it could even be ready by Whitakers (there will certainly be a proto type there.

jim

 

[kgholloway]

Jim,

I'd like to put in a vote for the Rhino with the third fin design. The slightly smaller fins give it a neat look, and they should be slightly stronger than the other three designs. I learned a long time ago that if the fins extend aft of the body tube they need to be both strong and firmly attached to prevent them popping off during a hard landing. Since these will be, in effect, kits for novice builders the less the fins extend outward from the body and the longer the fin's root edge is compared to the span the better in my opinion.

Ken

 

[powderburner]

I like the idea of an 'indestructable' beginners kit, and I agree with the guys who have voted against your original fin design (sorry, I don't know why, I just don't think they look good).

Maybe something like a highly swept delta shape, kind of like the old ASP sounding rocket? Or, if this is really supposed to be ultra simple, idiot proof, and all that, just plain rectangular fins, that stick straight out from the body tube. That fin design can be cut from three-inch balsa sheet with one cut, the root and tip are identical (you can glue either one to the body tube---er, wait a minute, then the tip would be the root????) And it has a rugged, utilitarian sort of aesthetic appeal.

 

[jflis]

well, the Rhino is well underway, speeded along by the request of the IGNITE program to provide it for their classes coming up in 3 short weeks (going to be very busy for a bit...)

And, as I've said many times, we (FlisKits) listen to our customers and often implement the ideas provided...

...but not always...

We kept the fin design (swept, clipped delta). This kit will be a single motor (Skill Level 1) with laser cut fins and peel-n-stick decals. A future version will be a 3 18mm cluster called the Rhino III.

I've attached a pix of the decal sheet. The next two notes will show pix of the proto (I will be flying this at CMASS next month, then at Whitakers)

jim

 

[jflis]

Here's a side view of the proto type. It's a *different* color scheme, but I like it. I think new comers to the hobby will love this kit.

She stands 24.5" tall. The nose cone used on this proto is about 2" longer than the actual cone will be, but the shape is correct.

jim

 

[jflis]

And a view from the rear.

This kit will be first built by the IGNITE classes during a program that spans 16 days. They will be launched as a part of the festivities at Space Day 2003 with Paul Manning.

If you are in the central New England area, please stop on out and join the fun!

Thoughts? comments? jeers? ??

 

[jetra2]

Ok, now I like it! It's amazing what a paint job a the right angles will do!.

Jim, once the IGNITE classes are finished, and if you are not using the FINAL version of the rhino, would you consider adding TTW tabs based on the difficulty the students have attaching them?


Jason

 

[jflis]

it's something we would consider, but it all comes down to cost.

There are TWO primary goals with this kit (as with the Flea)...

1) ease of assembly

2) cost

When we bulk pack for educators (the only bulk packs we do), we knock a lot of the cost out by not providing all the pretty packaging. We pass this cost on to the educator. We also shave our margins so low that you will not likely ever see a bulk pack at a retail store. To turn around and add that cost BACK by providing higher cost components has to be very carefully considered.

We do this as we know that educators (teachers, youth group leaders, clubs) are very short of funds and often wind up paying for this stuff themselves. Our goal with the bulk pack program is to introduce and teach rocketry. If we were to make any money from this program, it is in follow on sales because we've helped turn someone on to rocketry, it is certainly not from the sale of the bulk pack itself (beleive me... )

So, it's a balancing act. We agreed that we needed at least one Skill Level 1 kit with laser cut fins (we are contemplating adding these to the OverDrive as there are SO many fins with that kit) and are accepting the cost impact as a compromise for assembly ease. However, laser cutting increases the cost of the fin stock 8-10 fold (we buy a LOT of balsa)

The same would be true of slotted body tubes. we buy a LOT of tubes and laser slotting is not cheap (comparatively).

While slotting would (possibly) ease some assembly steps, it does so at a financial burden on the part of the educator. It is something we will have to weigh and make a decision on.

What we *don't* want, is a bulk pack Skill Level 1 kit that cost $14 bucks a kit., That defeats the purpose.

We will keep you folks posted. Those going to Whitakers will be able to see this kit and her sister (Rhino III) fly there.

jim

 

[Rocketman248]

Hey Jim,

You may have already said this, but are you going to sell the rhino as a separate kit also? I love the look of that rocket. I just love tons of decals.

Nick
Rocketman248

BTW...
I just built the Tumbleweed, Cougar 660(?), and the Overdrive. Great kits. They are my first mini engine kits.