Build thread Level 3 cert --- Carbon 4" dia., 8ft

[DaveAllen]

This is the build process of our Level 3 Certification rocket, FULL THROTTLE.

This build is one that I've been looking forward to for a very long time, ever since we completed our Level 1 & 2 a few years back.
I've also been working with my son so he could complete his NAR Junior1 and working with some of our current rockets and coming up with new design ideas (Boattails, Nosecones, Cameras, and most of all Altimeters).

We were able to take the time to document the build as we went through it. This whole process actually began a few years back with a kit we purchased from Wildman Rocketry, at one of the LDRS's. He had it sitting there at the side of his trailer and I thought "Wow, that looks sweet!" it turned out to be an Eagle Claw.

As we dove into the build, we started to realized even though this is a really cool kit, we needed to go BIGGER, so we went FULL THROTTLE!

So we decided to upgrade to a 75mm to achieve the Level 3 and carbon fiber components to help keep it as light as possible, but still trying to keep with the Eagle Claw theme. After working with OpenRocket, we finally came up with an overall design to be able to keep it under 18lbs. total including chutes, chords, tracers, camera, altimeters. etc. (just minus the motor).

This build included:
4" Carbon Fiber main airframe ------------ Rocketry Warehouse
4" Carbon Fiber upper airframe ----------- Rocketry Warehouse
3" (040) Carbon Fiber motor tube -------- Rocketry Warehouse
12" Carbon Fiber Coupler ------------------ Rocketry Warehouse
Filament wound ---------------------------- Rocketry Warehouse
Nosecone
Tailcone
Motor retainer ------------------------------ Giant Leap Rocketry
AV bay bulkheads -------------------------- Proline Rocketry
Chutes -------------------------------------- Rocketman Chutes
3' Drogue
12' Main

These first videos are showing the beginning of the build. This is part one and two with more to follow. I'm not sure how many parts this will come out to, but so far this is what I've got to share with you ......... JUST CLICK ON THE PICTURE ITSELF TO PLAY THE VIDEOS

This is a video showing the first part of the Level 3 build:
[video=youtube;D_qpmWxb11s]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D_qpmWxb11s[/video]

and this is part two of the Level 3 build:
[video=youtube;YlVYjQHuOC8]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YlVYjQHuOC8[/video]

We would like to thank some of the following people, programs, and suppliers who really helped us during this build process:
Rocketry Warehouse
OpenRocket
Rocketman Chutes
Aerotech
Sportsmoke
Wildman Rocketry
Perfectflite
Bay Area Rocketry
Aeropoxy
Stickershock
Giant Leap Rocketry
McMaster-Carr
Coast Airbrush
Aircraft Spruce

And a special thanks to:
Rocketry Organization of California (ROC) -- Thanks to all the officials for their help and support

 

[MarkH]

Cool build and videos!

I'd recommend using gloves when handling the epoxy though, to avoid allergy sensitization and what not.

 

[taiwanluthiers]

Do they have carbon fiber kits out there? Or is it strictly a la carte?

I thought I'd build myself a naked carbon fiber rocket sometimes...

 

[Sailorbill]

Cool build and videos!

I'd recommend using gloves when handling the epoxy though, to avoid allergy sensitization and what not.

+1 on that.

 

[ksaves2]

As pretty as that rocket is I found out something one might want to consider is that the descent under main needs to be obseved by the "witnesses" at some point.
Either the L3CC and L3/L2 for NAR or TAP for Tripoli. Reason I say this is it's in the rules and I've had the experience of launching small rockets like a WildmanJr
with J motors. The rocket has a GPS tracker riding in the ebay and I've had the experience of the rocket completely disappearing to 6500 to 7400' after the launch button is pushed.

Nothing is seen. Nada. Nobody sees any events, yet the telemetry shows that the descent rate is consistent with drogue deployment and the rate further slows at the expected main altitude. Rocket is never seen under the main chute because it's so small and a mile out. Walk up to the little bugger under the direction of the Garmin mapping GPS and it's stretched out just as nice as can be seen and obvious the recovery system did its job. If it was an L2 cert, it would be up to the latitude of the certifying witness as to whether or not they sign it. If they invoke that they didn't see the rocket under main and refuse, then there is no grounds to protest period.

Keep that in mind when attempting a high altitude screamer for an L3 cert flight. Winds aloft can do screwy things to a rocket. I've seen them spiral in odd directions with realtime GPS tracking. If one doesn't know which direction to look for the expected main chute, how can they be certain that the recovery system performed? If the rocket is so far out, might not get a good look at it on descent after main deployment.

Sooooooooooooo, a fancy tracker (either in the nosecone if it's not CF or on the apogee shockcord) will only insure a better chance of recovery if it's "sight unseen" but doesn't necessarily make for a successful cert attempt. I would think having the main deploy at 1000' or greater will give a longer time under main so the rocket is seen at some point and perhaps attaching a long metallized streamer to the main shockcord to flicker in the sunlight to give the eyes direction as to where to focus their attention. Also, eagle eyed witness(es) and perhaps binoculars might help if even to get a fleeting glimpse of a nominally deployed main chute.

I caught a glimpse of a 3" Wildman after an L1400 flight to 10k' at about 5 to 10 degrees above the horizon. Just a quick look actually and I would have signed off on that flight if it had been a cert attempt.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. The incredulous will say, "That gives you an excuse to fly another M motor!" I say they can pay for it then.:rant:
Kurt

 

[DaveAllen]

I can understand your point, in some circumstances, we consistently launch rockets to 8,10,12 thousand ft. without any GPS. We are able to observe the entire flight and recover the rockets by using smoke tracers. We launch at Lucerne Dry Lake Bed, it is a wide open area with clear visibility so we are able to accomplish this relatively easy and most people love the tracers because it allows everyone to follow the entire launch. I will get into this aspect in greater detail as I post more about the built, in the meantime here is a video of some of the tracers in action, but yes going at some of these altitudes and anything higher I strongly suggest using a GPS system. I am currently working on a project to go well over 50,000ft and incorporating a Altus Metrum System with full GPS and telemetry.
[video=youtube;65xpRyeXSS4]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=65xpRyeXSS4[/video]

Thank you for your reply
DaveAllen

 

[ksaves2]

I can understand your point, in some circumstances, we consistently launch rockets to 8,10,12 thousand ft. without any GPS. We are able to observe the entire flight and recover the rockets by using smoke tracers. We launch at Lucerne Dry Lake Bed, it is a wide open area with clear visibility so we are able to accomplish this relatively easy and most people love the tracers because it allows everyone to follow the entire launch. I will get into this aspect in greater detail as I post more about the built, in the meantime here is a video of some of the tracers in action, but yes going at some of these altitudes and anything higher I strongly suggest using a GPS system. I am currently working on a project to go well over 50,000ft and incorporating a Altus Metrum System with full GPS and telemetry.
[video=youtube;65xpRyeXSS4]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=65xpRyeXSS4[/video]

Thank you for your reply
DaveAllen

If you're in a position for great visual tracking then you got a leg up. Cold smoke canisters with pull string ignition look very helpful.

 

[taiwanluthiers]

What are the rules on including smoke devices on rockets? Are pyrotechnic "smoke bombs" allowed to aid in tracking? Or is that considered explosive (and therefore can't be used as payload)?

 

[ksaves2]

There are no prohibitions that I know of. The cold devices can be had here: https://sportsmoke.com/smoke-grenades/paintball-and-airsoft/tactical-smoke-grenade
There is a "Sportsman" grenade available also. I've posted before about smoke and I've read were folks said the smoke "stains" everything including the recovery laundry. I believe they were using stock "hot" colored smoke "bombs" some years ago. Doesn't look like that's a problem with the cold smoke canisters I've seen "rocket videos" of.

If worried about sighting on a high flying certification flight, something to consider. I have two 4" projects, either one I could use for an L3 attempt. Started to worry when I noticed the serious altitude achieved with even the lowest powered available M motors. I may invest in some pull string canisters for the apogee shockcord. Kurt

 

[daveyfire]

Very nice flight!

Let me know next time you're gonna fly and I'll hook you up with a thermite igniter to get it going on the first try

(also, not sure if this post spoils the punch line... lemme know if it does and I can kill it!)

 

[JimJarvis50]

As pretty as that rocket is I found out something one might want to consider is that the descent under main needs to be obseved by the "witnesses" at some point.

My L3 went to 35K. No problem with the certification, but I had the gps & altimeter files to prove it recovered as intended.

Jim

 

[DaveAllen]

Hi David,
Cool shot - Love it, better than any of the shots we were able to get, we mostly have video. Thank you so much!! It Really looks cool - do you have any others?
BTW I've invested in an entire box of thermite igniters. I am now an expert in high high powered igniters for rockets. I didn't know not venting the cap makes a huge difference also.

 

[DaveAllen]

There are no prohibitions that I know of. The cold devices can be had here: https://sportsmoke.com/smoke-grenades/paintball-and-airsoft/tactical-smoke-grenade
There is a "Sportsman" grenade available also. I've posted before about smoke and I've read were folks said the smoke "stains" everything including the recovery laundry. I believe they were using stock "hot" colored smoke "bombs" some years ago. Doesn't look like that's a problem with the cold smoke canisters I've seen "rocket videos" of.

If worried about sighting on a high flying certification flight, something to consider. I have two 4" projects, either one I could use for an L3 attempt. Started to worry when I noticed the serious altitude achieved with even the lowest powered available M motors. I may invest in some pull string canisters for the apogee shockcord. Kurt

Sportsmoke makes an Ematch smoke grenade that you can hook up directly to the altimeter through the apogee port. I've used this on a GWiz LCX and also on a Perfectflite StratoLogger SL100 Altimeters with perfect results everytime. Here is a direct link for the Ematch grenade: https://sportsmoke.com/smoke-grenades/electric-fire/tactical-smoke-grenade-electric-fire

This is the one I personally use and I've used them about a dozen times now. This one is good for about 1 1/2 - 2 minutes.

 

[ksaves2]

My L3 went to 35K. No problem with the certification, but I had the gps & altimeter files to prove it recovered as intended.

Jim

No doubt Jim. Was the rocket seen under main chute descent during some time of the recovery? Reason I ask is I've been told that some TAPS discourage cert
flights of this nature if they can't see it under the main chute. In your case if the rocket wasn't seen under the Main chute the certifier exercised discretion.
Or used a different interpretation of the rules.:eyeroll:

This is from the TRA rules:

Certification Flight – Level 3 Certification flight may take place at any insured launch.
The TAP member must be present and witness the certification flight. The TAP member
must witness the rocket ascend in a stable manner and descend in stabilized manner
controlled by the recovery system.

Doesn't matter if your GPS descent data shows nominal deployment of your recovery system and doesn't matter if your paint isn't scratched up. Technically, the TAP could invoke a "no see" rule. "Witnessing" your GPS data or altimeter information might not be enough for "some" TAPS or L3CC people.

Don't shoot me for being the messenger. I went to GPS/APRS tracking and have had 4 disappearing rockets so far. Two had technical problems early in my "career":blush:, one of those two crashed (apogee deployment failure and shearing of main shockcord) and the other two totally disappeared but were found immediately because the little "map in hand" told me where to go and it was obvious from my GPS data, downloads and the appearance of the rockets everything worked. The other rocket with a "technical failure" was due to metallic paint was seen just at my visual limits coming in under main and was recovered fine. (Stupidhead here didn't do an adequate range test. That rocket now flies with an external antenna as I'm too lazy to strip and repaint.)

I was just as surprised when I saw this philosophy posted and agree with you concerning data presentation. Kurt

 

[JimJarvis50]

Technically, the TAP could invoke a "no see" rule.

I think it would be pretty crummy of a TAP to take a high altitude flight and then not sign because he couldn't see the recovery. I tell my guys that they need to provide a flight profile, including descent rate on main, and that their data need to reasonably match the profile.

Dave, thanks for the link on the ematch, but cool, smoke. I did not know. Can't see you build videos though (the posted link is broken?).

Jim

 

[daveyfire]

Hi David,
Cool shot - Love it, better than any of the shots we were able to get, we mostly have video. Thank you so much!! It Really looks cool - do you have any others?
BTW I've invested in an entire box of thermite igniters. I am now an expert in high high powered igniters for rockets. I didn't know not venting the cap makes a huge difference also.

No prob-- I only clicked that one off, though, since I like watching the flights too Next time you fly it I'll be sure to take some more! (I might even know a guy who could get you a deal on another reload )

 

[DaveAllen]

I think it would be pretty crummy of a TAP to take a high altitude flight and then not sign because he couldn't see the recovery. I tell my guys that they need to provide a flight profile, including descent rate on main, and that their data need to reasonably match the profile.

Dave, thanks for the link on the ematch, but cool, smoke. I did not know. Can't see you build videos though (the posted link is broken?).

Jim

Hi Jim,
Try just clicking on the red arrow in the center of the video itself, it should just play. You can also try clicking on the "YouTube" icon on the lower right corner of the video and it will take you to the you tube page itself. Don't try clicking on the blue highlighted link itself it doesn't work just click on the video picture itself.

DaveAllen