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jkn

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Ive had an order placed now for two weeks. The wait wouldnt be so bad if I could get any word at all about my order. The fact that I paid through paypal is a bit more confounding as my money is already gone and dont have any recourse but to wait(and make this post). I see where his email went down and all but doesnt he log into PayPal to check on new orders ? Shouldnt he at the very least respond to those who have placed orders ? The number I have from the website just rings and rings. Im thinking it may not be the correct number because shouldnt there be some kind of voicemail answering when he's not home ?
I certainly dont want to come off sounding like a "complaining customer" , I guess I'm just a frustrated one. Anyone have any updated info ?

Of course I've always read of BSD's high level of service so Im just praying that everyones OK. (KoW)


-JKN
 

Stewart32

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Logged a complaint via Paypal which elicited a response from the owner...he suppplied a USPS tracking number.

I wouldn't expect to communicate via email or phone as my attempt were ignored.

Good Luck
 

lalligood

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Thought I'd pass the word along... The following message was posted on BSD's homepage today (May 26th) :

SPAM UPDATE!!!
The situation got a lot worse. Our ISP implemented SPAM filters on their mail servers, which reduced the SPAM messages reaching our inbox by at least half. We installed SPAM filtering software on our computer at the office and it would no longer boot. Whatever happened prevented a reload of Windows or a restore from backup. We installed a new hard drive and are in the process of installing only the software to run BSD. A new computer will be here the first week in June. We apologize if your e-mail messages have not been answered. We will get to them ASAP, but we have little over 2500 messages to go through. Meanwhile, we are kitting and shipping the orders printed before the problem. The rest of your orders will ship as soon as our order processing application and database is restored (before the end of May).
 

shrox

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...Whatever happened prevented a reload of Windows or a restore from backup. We installed a new hard drive and are in the process of installing only the software to run BSD...
Ouch!! Been there, it is a pain and stops a business cold.

Stewart32, maybe you could retract your complaint to PayPay in light of what has happened to BSD.

shrox
 

Chilly

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I was hoping there'd be a reasonable explanation, since I'm saving up for a Thor.:D
I've heard nothing but good things about BSD and couldn't imagine they were ripping people off.
 

Stewart32

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Like I said, at least I was able to get information via Paypal.
 

jkn

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I dont believe Stewart32 should feel bad at all about what he's done. I understand that BSD's PC's went down. That doesnt prevent them from going to a friends, a Kinko's, wherever and logging into their paypal account, checking on orders and sending those people an acknowledgement of their order that states when they believe their shipment might go out. Especially if that order cannot be shipped within a few days. That has been standard practice in this country for many years now.

From what I've read their service has always been very timely. The delays on shipments going out cant honestly be attributed to their PC going down, imo thats ridiculous. However it can be attributed to them not answering emails .

I'm sure the good folks at BSD will have their computer and other problems straightened out soon . Bad service is much more memorable and harder to get out of peoples minds than good service. In business your reputation is only as good as the last customer you served.

I'm sure they will be up and running smoothly again soon and I'm sure I just placed my order at the wrong time and look forward to my new 4" Diablo arriving any day now.

- John
 

rbeckey

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Backup software is relatively inexpensive, as are spare drives. There are utilities that a novice can use that would have the machine back up in an hour, unless there was a hardware failure other than the drive.

If a PC were a significant part of my livelyhood, it would have redundantly redundant backups. I currently archive important files on a spare drive and DVD+R stored offsite.
 

jkn

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Originally posted by jcrocket
Also keep in mind that the "folks" behind most rocketry outfits are a single individual with full time "real" job.

Joel. phx
Hmmm... Im not sure why I said "folks". If you see my original post I refer to "he" and "him". I guess I just dont see how not having an up-and-running computer can stop a business from shipping orders. From what I can tell orders from BSD used to be shippped very quickly, correct me if Im wrong. The fact that he can no longer enter orders in his database shouldnt stop him from shipping orders.

Sure, I realize it's a part-time business but thats simply not an excuse and I imagine he wouldnt try to use that as a reason for his problems either.
To be honest , after I read his the current message on his site again, it doesnt leave me very confident . He says...

"We installed a new hard drive and are in the process of installing only the software to run BSD. A new computer will be here the first week in June. "

Then says...

"Meanwhile, we are kitting and shipping the orders printed before the problem. The rest of your orders will ship as soon as our order processing application and database is restored (before the end of May)."

Maybe it's just me but these two statements seem to contradict each other. Does he mean he has a interim computer to use before he gets the new one in June ?
I figure I'll just go with his final statement and expect my order to be shipped by Monday at the latest. At that point my order will be just over three weeks old. After that I guess I'll have to do what Stewart32 did and log an official complaint through PayPal.
Maybe I already should have done this as he somehow got an email from him after he complained ?

Time will tell. I cant say I know all the circumstances surrounding BSD's problems and I feel I should give him the benefit of the doubt.

-John
 

SecretSquirrel

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Maybe it's just me, but I never thought 2-3 weeks was a terribly long time to wait for a kit by mail order.
 

eugenefl

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Originally posted by SecretSquirrel
Maybe it's just me, but I never thought 2-3 weeks was a terribly long time to wait for a kit by mail order.
Unless it's custom ordered (ie - kits built to order), I can't reasonably expect to wait more than 14 days. Payments via PayPal are instant. Why can't the vendor's turnaround be instant or somewhat fast? At a minimum, vendors could ship within 72 hours of receiving payment. We're talking a span of a few days to allow for orders to accumulate, those orders to be packaged, and those same orders to be taken to the post office. Shipping via UPS or whatever is typically no more than 5-7 days. Sorry to disagree, but anything beyond 2 weeks is very slow service to me. After 2 weeks I would be under the impression that the vendor isn't necessarily concerned with satisfying the customer.

Heck, I'm still waiting on a nosecone I ordered almost a month ago...a friggin' nosecone.
 

SecretSquirrel

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Sometimes there are unforseen circumstances. About a month ago I shipped an order to Canada. It should have taken no more than 10 days to deliver, but it took 3 weeks. I shipped the order within 12 hours of recieving it, but it was probably held up in customs.

I, as a vendor, shipped in a very timely manner but the delivery was delayed by events completely out of my hands. Nothing I can really do about that.

Sometimes the customer expects more than can be delivered by the vendor. I once got an order at about 11 pm on a Saturday night. Tuesday morning there was a nastygram waiting in my inbox. The customer didn't have his kit yet. The fact that the post office is closed Sundays really didn't matter to him.

At any rate, postal regulations give vendors 30 days to ship an order, unless the vendor specifies a different delivery time. That longer delivery time must be stated at the time the order is placed.
 

lalligood

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2 points:

1) It's very easy for us to say "Should've had the system backed up." Shoulda, coulda, woulda. Bottom line is that as a whole, we are inherently lazy (I'm in fact the reigning King of Laziness myself! :p ) Being in the IT business, it is generally very difficult to sell someone on the importance of backups/recovery techniques. It's the classic "Oh, that'll never happen to ME" syndrome... We (again, collectively) don't seem to learn except the hard way: experiencing that hardware/data failure for ourselves. There's nothing that gives me a worse feeling in my job when I have to tell someone that I cannot recover their data--it's like a doctor having to give a patient or patient's family bad news. But we can learn from our mistake(s) & be better prepared for next time. I wish BSD the best right now & hope they're back to 100% soon & that everyone gets what they ordered.

2) Customer expectations. We live in the Internet age--the time of instant gratification. Communications can be transmitted in fractions of a second & packages can be sent/received in less than 24 hours. That's the world we live in. While the customer's expectations regarding wait time has changed, little else has. However, it ultimately is the *seller's responsibility* to set the customer's expectations & then communicate with the customer when there are issues that are outside the normal window of operation. The sooner that is done, the fewer the problems a business is likely to encounter. Customers 99+% of the time don't mind a delay as long as it is communicated to them in a timely fashion. *Failure to communicate* is the downfall of any business & is seen as unacceptable behavior. Always has been & always will be.

I'm going to get off my soapbox now & go to bed...
 

SecretSquirrel

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Originally posted by lalligood


However, it ultimately is the *seller's responsibility* to set the customer's expectations & then communicate with the customer when there are issues that are outside the normal window of operation.

Well, that's sort of my point. Does BSD state a definite ship time on their orders, or is 2-3 weeks standard for them?

If they ship within 30 days, they are still within the time frame allowed by postal regs unless they state a different ship time.

There are still issues that just happen and can't be helped. I had to delay the release of a kit due to computer problems. Now let me state that I have EVERYTHING backed up, but my laser cutting service doesn't. So I had to wait 6 weeks for fins because his hard drive died.


I had to wait over a month for decal paper once. I nearly ran out of a particular kit because of that. I couldn't make the paper company ship any faster, it was completely out of my control.



Sometimes stuff just happens, and most vendors I know are just as anxious to get your kit or whatever to you as you are to get it.


Fortunately, Paypal now allows me to enter the delivery confirmation number into the customer's order now. So they all know when I ship.
 

Len B

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Originally posted by SecretSquirrel
Sometimes there are unforseen circumstances. About a month ago I shipped an order to Canada. It should have taken no more than 10 days to deliver, but it took 3 weeks.
I order things to Canada all the time. I've waited as long as 8 weeks for something as small as a book. I recently won an auction on ROL for a hybrid motor. The seller was lightning fast on the shipping and it took 4 weeks from that point. I've also received things very quickly. I got a kit from The Netherlands in 3 days!

Like you say, sometimes shipping is the culprit too.

I have not ordered directly from BSD but I have corresponded with Mark in the past and I feel bad that this situation has happened to him and to you guys. It is most difficult to wait when there is a launch coming up and you bought something with that in mind. Since it is flying season, I am sure that is the case.

BSD kits are great. My picture (avatar?) is a BSD Canadian Sprint BTW.

Len Bryan
 

jkn

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Originally posted by lalligood
2 points:

1)... I wish BSD the best right now & hope they're back to 100% soon & that everyone gets what they ordered.

2) ... However, it ultimately is the *seller's responsibility* to .... communicate with the customer when there are issues that are outside the normal window of operation. Customers 99+% of the time don't mind a delay as long as it is communicated to them in a timely fashion. *Failure to communicate* is the downfall of any business & is seen as unacceptable behavior. Always has been & always will be.

1) Me too !

2) I agree. If a seller cant ship an order out within several days I feel he needs to inform the customer. If a customers info, ph# & email are in a sellers PayPal account and can be accessed from any online computer then, as I see it , theres no reason the seller cant contact the customer.


There are a couple things that upset me about all this :

I paid using PayPal. My money is gone. My options are to just wait & hope or try to find a dealer with the product in stock and buy it again. The problem is that I dont want two of these and I have zero confidence in trying to somehow cancel my original order and getting that money back.

Also, while it's good that he updated his website with info explaining his computer problems saying why he hasnt been able to reply to peoples email inquiries (how did he do that?) he still hasnt addressed why he hasnt been able to ship orders. :confused:

Honestly I'm really not to the point of anger or anything but I am frustrated and am expecting some satisfaction sooner rather than later. As a business owner myself I realize that "every-so-often" there are customers who fall into unseen cracks. However , after reading here and on RMR I see that I am not an isolated case and THAT makes me frustrated knowing that theres a very good chance that my order hasnt been shipped or even acknowledged.
With all that said I'll still be keeping my fingers crossed . :D :D

- John
 

SecretSquirrel

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Originally posted by jkn

I paid using PayPal. My money is gone.
This is the only thing that bugs me about Paypal.

If I had another credit card service, I could charge the card when I ship. Paypal charges the card right then and there.

I would prefer that the vendor had the option of accepting the order before the card is charged. That way, if there is a delay, the customer isn't out anything.
 

Stewart32

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Happy Memorial Day!

What a great extended weekend to enjoy the wonderful hobby of rocketry. Perhaps build a new kit from BSD?

BUT NO!!! Gotta have a kit in order to do that.

No, I certainly don't "feel bad" about reporting the situation to Paypal.

The other message on the BSD website clearly states that "All kits...are shipping" Borders on false advertisement.

Regarding "technology"...
The spam issue is a thin curtain.
Orders are documented via the Paypal process.
Besides, I would think that any business desireing to stay in profitable business will have a contingency plan in place. Especially one for recieveing, documenting and delivering orders.

While y'all make valid points, the fact remains, that if monies are accepted for goods and services, then one is obligated to provide goods and services. Otherwise a refund is on order. I can get quality kits from any number of other vendors.
 

rbeckey

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I really don't understand the spam thing either. I get no spam. None. I configured Outlook Express to delete it. This isn't "rocket science," anybody can do it if they have any amount of computer experience. Laziness is not a valid excuse where I'm from. There is no excuse for failure to communicate with customers whose money you have taken in advance, for an item you can't deliver. It is not about instant gratification. If a vendor sends me an email saying BMS can't supply the fins and offers me a compromise or my money back, I'm satisfied. If there is no other time frame mentioned, I expect an item to ship within 3 business days of when somebody gets my money. If you can't do that, I expect an explanation. After all, you already have my money! At that point the vendor owes me. The customer is always right
 

jkn

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Stewart32,

You said you did an official complaint through PayPal and he emailed you a tracking number ? So he shipped your order ? If I may ask... did that email come from a BSD address ? When was this ? Also, have you received your order?

I ask these questions because I am deliberating whether or not to do an official complaint or not.


Thanks for the help,

John
 

Stewart32

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jkn,

Yes I did log a complaint through Paypal.

A USPS tracking number was provided by BSD and transmitted via Paypal correspondance. Not to be confused with email direct from BSD as there has been none. Unfortunatly, the tracking number appears to be bogus. The complaint was filed better than a week ago.

So...

Out nearly $70 and no merchandise.

Yup, Paypal certainly is convenient. For whom I'm not yet sure.

Good Luck!
 

Stewart32

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I am happy to say that Paypal credited me for the costs of the BSD debacle.

Think I will go check out the Tethys.
 

jkn

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Well a couple days after I did an official complaint I got a reply from Mark saying he hasnt been able to use his left hand due to back and neck problems. He said it was shipped on Fri USPS and gave a tracking number which the USPS website says " There is no record of that item. If it was mailed recently, information may not yet be available. Please try again later."

Does this sound similar to your experience Stewart ?

If so, how long after you sent your complaint did PayPal credit your account ?


Thanks,
John
 

Stewart32

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That is the same experience I had.

I also was provided with bogus USPS tracking numbers.

I was abel to get a credit through Paypal so no monies were lost, only time.

I sincerely hope that the folks over at BSD can work out thier problems. Perhaps BSD should suspend taking orders until such point in time as they can be filled.

I had really looked forward to building the 3" Horizon, and perhaps I will get the opportunity in the future.

Hope you have better luck with BSD than I did.
 

Stewart32

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I took Paypal about a week after the initial complaint to credit my account.
 

Stewart32

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I took Paypal about a week after the initial complaint to credit my account.
 

jkn

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Thanks Stewart !

One last question :

Did PayPal email you to inform you when your account had been credited ?


Anyway Im very surprised at BSD's behavior. Telling someone their order has been shipped and supplying a bogus tracking number is nothing less than deceit. Obviously I will not be ordering from BSD again. Their designs are great but it would seem their owner is morally deficient. My advice to him is cut his losses and refund folks money before he digs deeper the hole in which he has placed himself. Further, I understand and empathize with his injuries but that does not give him the right to deceive his customers.
 

jkn

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Originally posted by jcrocket
Does the USPS tracker still say the numbers are invalid?

Did you both receive the same number?

Joel. phx

Yes. Still saying...

" There is no record of that item. If it was mailed recently, information may not yet be available. Please try again later."

Earlier I stated I wasnt to the point of anger but I am now. What I didnt mention is that I found what I believe to be his home email address and wrote him. That was the first response I got back from him. He said then the order would go out on Thursday priority mail. Then, I got the response that came due to my paypal complaint that had the same info except it had the tracking number and said it would ship on Fri. Due to my experience and seeing another person having the exact same thing happen to him brings me to the conclusion that I am dealing with fraud, plain and simple. I dont like being lied to. That makes me mad.

I just hope I get my money back eventually.
 

bsexton

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I have been a big fan of BSD kits and Mark Saunders, the owner. Except for one occassion I have always gotten good service from Mark -- and the "one occassion" was taken care of to my complete satisfaction.

It is distressing to hear about the problems some of you are having lately. I'm not making excuses for him but I do know this is a part-time business for Mark like many vendors supporting our hobby. We have come to expect "instant gratification" in the age of the Internet and the World Wide Web. If someone has a web site and an email we expect them to respond promptly. I don't know about you but my experience with on-line vendors has been all over the board from absolutely fantastic to extremely poor.

I only hope Mark can rectify the problem at BSD -- the products are worth every penny IMHO.
 

Stewart32

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jkn: Yes, I believe Paypal did send email upon credit. I agree that BSD should make refunds.

jcrocket: I don't recall the USPS tracking number, only that it did not register. I got the same message jkn did, when trying the number for about a week.

jkn: Yes, BSD is bordering on fraud while generating angry frustration amongst potential customers. Fear not, Paypal will make good (I believe).

bsexton: I would be happy to purchase from BSD because the kits have had, 'till now, great reviews. But I expect to recieve the merchandise promptly after payment has been transmitted.

Appears as though Mr. Saunders is having medical problems as well as financial difficulties. I wish him the best of luck and will try again in the future once these issues have resolved.
 
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