BP Motor Prices Outside USA--Wow!!!

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SharkWhisperer

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So I'm following some threads on the Reddit rocketry page and came across a Canuck who last week spend $16 USD ($19 CAD--his conversion, not mine) on a 3-pack of Estes C6-7 motors. I thought "wow!" until I scrolled down to a fellow countryman who found them at a "discount" of only $10.70 US equivalent, which isn't quite as crazy but with high shipping costs.

Then an Australian chimed in with: "You think that’s an outrage? Here in Australia a pack of C6-7s cost me $30 dollars last week - that’s $29 CAD or $23 USD. My last purchase were E9-8s for $55 - that’s $42 USD, up from the $23 USD Estes charge on their website. That’s approaching twice the price."

And then a Brit offered: "ha ha dude here in the UK . they are like with conversations to dollar would be like $24.82 for a pack of six , but with them being classed an explosive no free delivery.. so add an extra $20 charge on top .. so i do buy in bulk. but for a one off buy not very realistic . I cant find anywhere I can walk into and by model rockets all online here."

And I thought commercial motors were overpriced in the US (because I'm jaded---I can make my own F motors for maybe $2 in material costs when I'm feeling ambitious)!

Expected model rocket motors (at least Estes and relatives) to be more expensive outside the US, but that's a hard pill for our international brothers to swallow!!!

The link, though not providing much more than I've outlined above, is: https://www.reddit.com/r/rocketry/comments/lgaoy6
 
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Dipstick

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Yup, the CDN to US dollar has been a tough pill for quite a while. It's been close to par before, but at least ten years now.

We get really cranky when we order CTI motors and have to pay US dollars for an order in Canada :(

And then try shipping stuff up here!
 

Cape Byron

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Kit prices are OOT as well. Just got an email from a local retailer telling me they have the Estes Doorknob in stock at $91 AUD ($70.61 US). Estes US price, $39.99 US. ERockets price, $31.99 US. :rolleyes:
 

Jimmy

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I moved from Ohio to British Columbia a few years ago. I married a Canadian. Long story. 🙃. Yeah the prices here are considerably higher than what I was used to paying. Oh well, the hobby is still worth it for me.
 

RocketTree

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So I'm following some threads on the Reddit rocketry page and came across a Canuck who last week spend $16 USD ($19 CAD--his conversion, not mine) on a 3-pack of Estes C6-7 motors. I thought "wow!" until I scrolled down to a fellow countryman who found them at a "discount" of only $10.70 US equivalent, which isn't quite as crazy but with high shipping costs.
In Canada, a 3 pack of C6-7 motors is $10.60 USD. (plus shipping and tax).
He should shop around, since there are only 3 stores that sell rocket motors here.
 

SharkWhisperer

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Kit prices are OOT as well. Just got an email from a local retailer telling me they have the Estes Doorknob in stock at $91 AUD ($70.61 US). Estes US price, $39.99 US. ERockets price, $31.99 US. :rolleyes:
Only $23.99 for the Doorknob from Doug at AC Supply, w/free shipping over $100. That's withing the US, though. Would have to see if he ships internationally...

This is posted on the AC Supply website: International orders will be charged actual shipping and be shipped through the United States Postal Service. 2 services are generally available. USPS International priority (6 - 12 days) and USPS International Express mail (4 - 10 days to most areas).

Hazardous material shipping is not available on International orders!


Sorry, but I have not idea what actual shipping costs would be but dude's always been pretty fair for US shipping (straight $11.99 on US orders under $100 and free over $100; more if you want faster shipping options than Retail/Parcel Post). You could easily estimate shipping to Australia from info available on the USPS website, or just email Doug himself--he's always been pretty responsive to my comms, and his stuff goes out the door pretty quickly--if it's shown online, he has it in stock for sure...

Estes D motors are $7.19/2-pack, also free shipping over $100 and no hazmat. Wish Estes'd pack 'em into bulk packs. I don't buy E/F's from him because of hazmat fees--Hobbylinc's shipping on many E's/Fs super reasonable, but pricing so-so.
 
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SharkWhisperer

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In Canada, a 3 pack of C6-7 motors is $10.60 USD. (plus shipping and tax).
He should shop around, since there are only 3 stores that sell rocket motors here.
Yeah, sounds like he voluntarily ripped himself off by not doing his homework. C motors are $7.07 USD/3-pack where I buy them, but usually I get as part of bulk packs...
 

billdz

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Just checked the prices at my favorite shop in Slovakia, it's USD $16.54 (13.69 euros) for a 3-pack of Estes C motors. The German-made Klima motors are more powerful and a bit cheaper, USD $19.38 (16.04 euros) for a C 6-pack.

Estes kits are also much costlier, $68.65 (56.82 euros) for a Majestic E2X.

HPR is also really expensive, if available at all.
 

SharkWhisperer

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Just checked the prices at my favorite shop in Slovakia, it's USD $16.54 (13.69 euros) for a 3-pack of Estes C motors. The German-made Klima motors are more powerful and a bit cheaper, USD $19.38 (16.04 euros) for a C 6-pack.

Estes kits are also much costlier, $68.65 (56.82 euros) for a Majestic E2X.

HPR is also really expensive, if available at all.
Wow again! I paid USD $29 for my Majestic (half your local pricing, for some plastic and cardboard bits....). Sheesh, it's probably be worth it to try to import some goodies from afar. And I thought LPR/MPR was stupid overpriced in the US? Well, it is. But you guys abroad really are getting shafted...
 

Dipstick

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You can't ship motors across the border either, so we miss out on great sales like Wildman black Friday...I always feel a little envious at those motor discounts! The occasional hobby shop sale keeps the model prices ok for me.
 

Bruce

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Just checked the prices at my favorite shop in Slovakia, it's USD $16.54 (13.69 euros) for a 3-pack of Estes C motors. The German-made Klima motors are more powerful and a bit cheaper, USD $19.38 (16.04 euros) for a C 6-pack.
I wonder how much those Klima motors shipped to the US would be?
 

Leo

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Just checked the prices at my favorite shop in Slovakia, it's USD $16.54 (13.69 euros) for a 3-pack of Estes C motors. The German-made Klima motors are more powerful and a bit cheaper, USD $19.38 (16.04 euros) for a C 6-pack.
...
Klima motors are normally only sold in 6 or 30 pack only.
 

billdz

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I wonder how much those Klima motors shipped to the US would be?
Klima motors and kits are the only great thing European rocketeers have that the U.S. does not have. A rocket on a Klima C6-5 goes almost 50% higher than on an Estes C6-5. Klima D motors are 18mm, and it is very easy to lose a rocket with one of them. I'm not aware of anyone who ships Klima motors to the U.S., and if possible it probably would not be cheap. See https://www.rocketryforum.com/threads/klima-motors.140951/.
 

ThirstyBarbarian

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For the kits, at those prices, I would think there would be a lot of scratch building. Yikes! Do kits get hit with some kind of import duty or fee? In the US, you almost never pay the full MSRP, let alone a markup. Some places are routinely 40% below the full retail price.

I can see why moving motors across borders might face a lot of regulation that adds to the price or limits availability.
 

billdz

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For the kits, at those prices, I would think there would be a lot of scratch building. Yikes! Do kits get hit with some kind of import duty or fee? In the US, you almost never pay the full MSRP, let alone a markup. Some places are routinely 40% below the full retail price.

I can see why moving motors across borders might face a lot of regulation that adds to the price or limits availability.
Special handling on the overseas shipping of motors likely explains the higher price for those, but you're right about kits. There is a lot of scratch building. Estes kits probably are subject to import duties, but I do not know the particulars. Klima kits are a bit cheaper and higher quality, for example compare the Estes Patriot (https://www.peckamodel.sk/rd-es2056-u-s-army-patriot-raketa) with the Klima Elektra (https://www.peckamodel.sk/kl-3203-klima-elektra-kit). I've never seen any markdowns, Black Friday sales, or other discounts. Hobby shops focus on RC airplanes, trains, drones, with just a shelf or two of rocket products. All products include 20% VAT, so the price you see is what you pay (no sales tax added at checkout).
 

ghostfather

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A 3-pack of Estes C6-7s in the Netherlands is €11.50 (about $14 USD), that's including 21% sales tax.

Klima C6-7s in a 6 pack are €18.95 (about $23 USD), so a bit cheaper per motor
 

OverTheTop

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Here are some prices from a LHS in the city. Their prices are high-end but so is their rent. They have been there since the 1940's I think.
Estes A motors, 3-pack, $22.03USD

Estes Alpha kit, $33.05USD

AC Supply do ship internationally. I got a Saturn V kit (#1969) from them a while back. Good pricing and service.
 

SharkWhisperer

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Here are some prices from a LHS in the city. Their prices are high-end but so is their rent. They have been there since the 1940's I think.
Estes A motors, 3-pack, $22.03USD

Estes Alpha kit, $33.05USD

AC Supply do ship internationally. I got a Saturn V kit (#1969) from them a while back. Good pricing and service.
Rocket kits are not Hazmat. Rocket motors are Hazmat. I highly doubt that Doug's sending BP motors to Australia. If somebody is, I certainly wouldn't publicize it. Anyways, I pinged him for clarification.

I repeat, taken verbatim from AC Supply's webpage on delivery: International Orders. International orders will be charged actual shipping and be shipped through the United States Postal Service. 2 services are generally available. USPS International priority (6 - 12 days) and USPS International Express mail (4 - 10 days to most areas)."

"Hazardous material shipping is not available on International orders!"


Also, those local prices are crazy high. For those who are unaware, the mini A10-3T actually holds slightly more BP (3.8g) than the misnamed A8-3 (3.1g BP; Actually should be A3-3 if reflecting true performance), weigh less, can lift the same weight, have 20% greater peak thrust, and whether placed in a plastic adapter, built with a BT-5 motor mount or stuffed into a used A8-3 motor with nozzle removed (they conveniently fit...usually), will perform as good or better than an A8-3. And here the price is slightly cheaper for a 4-pack of A10-3Ts than for a 3-pack of A8-3 motors...
 
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SharkWhisperer

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Rocket kits are not Hazmat. Rocket motors are Hazmat. I highly doubt that Doug's sending BP motors to Australia. If somebody is, I certainly wouldn't publicize it. Anyways, I pinged him for clarification.

I repeat, taken verbatim from AC Supply's webpage on delivery: International Orders. International orders will be charged actual shipping and be shipped through the United States Postal Service. 2 services are generally available. USPS International priority (6 - 12 days) and USPS International Express mail (4 - 10 days to most areas)."

"Hazardous material shipping is not available on International orders!"
My comment on AC Supply was for shipping of a kit only. No motors.
With all respect, this was already established in Post #10 of this thread. Curious how much shipping added on to AC's low kit price, though. Probably was almost as much as the kit itself? But I'm feeling your pain on the cost of BP motors for our Southern Pacific colleagues. Sheesh, at that expense I'd probably be pounding my own BP mini-A's to Ds, like I already do with many BP Es and all F motor equivalents. Good flyin' to ya!
 

Cape Byron

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Here are some prices from a LHS in the city. Their prices are high-end but so is their rent. They have been there since the 1940's I think.
Estes A motors, 3-pack, $22.03USD
Hearns have been there since Moses played full back for Jerusalem. Great place, but not the cheapest. That said, I maintain that high prices have killed LPR in Oz. If I won Lotto, or had a few extra kidneys to sell, I'd get a Quest dealership and sell Q-Jets like Maccas sells burgers.

*BTW, I don't mean unsanitary, I mean cheap and lots.
 

SharkWhisperer

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Hearns have been there since Moses played full back for Jerusalem. Great place, but not the cheapest. That said, I maintain that high prices have killed LPR in Oz. If I won Lotto, or had a few extra kidneys to sell, I'd get a Quest dealership and sell Q-Jets like Maccas sells burgers.

*BTW, I don't mean unsanitary, I mean cheap and lots.
"Fullback for Jerusalem" kak kak kak!! If you really want to turn on the waterworks, a 24-motor bulk pack of A8-3s from AC Supply (free shipping over $100, which I somehow always meet) costs $43.19 USD (and Estes wants $71.29 direct!).

But I'm in touch with several Aussie fireworkers who have absolutely no difficulty sourcing cheap ingredients for making functional BP "research" motors that are easily adaptable to finned rocketry. Pounding out BP motors is actually one of the safer aspects of fireworking, though making decent BP is a learning experience, but an F-class motor costs me about $2-2.50 in materials. About half of that is cost of the tube. I posted this link on another thread, but if you didn't see it perhaps it's worth a watch--a buddy's first "research" flight of a modified Estes Patriot Missile powered by a C+ homemade 18mm BP motor... This is where combining my two related hobbies gets really fun!
 

plugger

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But I'm in touch with several Aussie fireworkers who have absolutely no difficulty sourcing cheap ingredients for making functional BP "research" motors that are easily adaptable to finned rocketry. Pounding out BP motors is actually one of the safer aspects of fireworking, though making decent BP is a learning experience, but an F-class motor costs me about $2-2.50 in materials.
Black powder is a Dangerous Good in Australia. So you can't even buy it without a DG card. Furthermore even if you were able to buy black powder making homemade rocket motors legally in Australia requires an explosives manufacturing license. For your fireworker mates that's not a problem as they already have that license. For the rest of us it's a bit of a hurdle.

This is the main reason why we don't have a EX community down here.
 

shockie

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I spoke with Klima a few months back:

Here's a German to English translation of a response I got from Klima Motors in Germany about their motors ever becoming available here in the USA.

Hi,

Thank you for the message.
Unfortunately, all this is not so easy.

Our motors are of course tested and approved by BAM for CE conformity.
However, these cannot simply be transferred 1:1 to American law.
Our approval is only valid within the EU.
Therefore, we would have to go through the complete approval procedure in the USA.
In addition, as a foreigner in the USA you have very high insurance costs because of product liability.

These topics have been examined for some time, since we are very comfortable with our products in the long term
also American customers want to offer.

We know that there is a lot of interest in our engines in the American scene and we don't want to ignore that either.
As soon as we have CE approval for our 29mm E and F engines (already in progress at BAM in Berlin),
we intend to apply for approval for the complete engine range in the USA.

Regarding FAI, we have been asked several times by European participants,
also for competitions to produce special engines.
In modern times, such engines must also have an approval.
At the moment it would not be economically justifiable for us to produce such engines – not with such small quantities.
However, we are also planning Mini engines to replace Jetex / Rapier engines.
Then variants for the Spacemodeling could be realized again.

I hope to provide a sufficiently satisfactory answer with these explanations.
I am happy to answer any further questions.

BAM is the German equivalent more or less of our BATFE/CPSC


In Germany Model Rocket motors are limited to 20g of propellant. Anything bigger requires a explosives license. They do export to the UK, Netherlands and various Eastern European companies at present. And you thought our laws are strict. these laws were put in place in the 70's because the Bader-Meinhof gang (Red Army Faction) was going around blowing stuff up.

attached is a MSDS for Kilma motors. In the USA this mixture is known in the pyrotechnic trade as "whistle mix" , but then since Klima is also probably the largest fireworks manufacturer in Germany, it makes sense. Klima motors are available throughout Eastern Europe in a lot of online hobby shops.

Since these are EU/BAM/CE certified I would expect that the DOT/CPSC/BATFE etc would all look upon these motors favorably. Klima due to USA regulations would have to create whats called an Agent company here in the USA for them to be sold. I assume something similar would have to happen in Canada and Australia.



 

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SharkWhisperer

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Amazing to me that they have a benzoate whistle mix approved in the nanny EU for hobby rocket motors!!! That stuff is wicked dangerous to work with (press into rocket grains) compared to BP because it is a lot more impact sensitive. Similar stuff as used in Chicom commercial fireworks/rockets that whistle, though in larger quantities for rocket motors. 20g propellant max/motor? Yipes.

Interesting that they used the more hygroscopic sodium salt instead of the more commonly used (and less water-absorbing) potassium salt. Must be cheaper. I seriously doubt those motors will have the long-term reliability as BP motors do unless they're protected from atmospheric moisture somehow (adding vaseline or wax to the fuel can aid compaction during pressing and reduces water absorption). At least they're not using the "other" standard whistle fuel that's related to common aspirin--that formulation is especially sensitive.
 

shockie

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Amazing to me that they have a benzoate whistle mix approved in the nanny EU for hobby rocket motors!!! That stuff is wicked dangerous to work with (press into rocket grains) compared to BP because it is a lot more impact sensitive. Similar stuff as used in Chicom commercial fireworks/rockets that whistle, though in larger quantities for rocket motors. 20g propellant max/motor? Yipes.

Interesting that they used the more hygroscopic sodium salt instead of the more commonly used (and less water-absorbing) potassium salt. Must be cheaper. I seriously doubt those motors will have the long-term reliability as BP motors do unless they're protected from atmospheric moisture somehow (adding vaseline or wax to the fuel can aid compaction during pressing and reduces water absorption). At least they're not using the "other" standard whistle fuel that's related to common aspirin--that formulation is especially sensitive.
notice they say they are trying to get EF motors certified? I was looking at the propellant weights of their current A-D line. They could conceivably do a 95% E on 30g and 90% F on 62.5g...... with this propellant. Obviously, because of German law, these would not be usable in Germany.....and I don't see the law being changed....unless this propellant mixture is not considered an explosive under German law. I'm going to do some research and see if BAM has a listing online of what they consider an explosive like the BATFE has.

Thoughts: would the inclusion of wax de- sensitive this mixture any? and are you familiar with the concept or practice of dead-pressing ? where you can de-sensitive an explosive mixture by pressing it to some specific pressure? BP is hygroscopic(but to what degree) .....but in it's pressed state I would gather that it's less hygroscopic then say, just having powder laying around open to the atmosphere. although I have test reports showing extremely high humidity can severely affect BP motors.....but unless you let them sit like that for hours I don't think normal storage conditions would result in this. SO maybe pressing KCIO4/C6H5COONa reduces the hygroscopicity somewhat.
 
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