# @bobkrech and current amateur/exp rules here

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#### Iceman1979

##### Well-Known Member
Unless you are trained in the art and have the proper facilities and observe the proper safety rules, making rocket motor can be dangerous to you, and to those around you. At TRF we do not discuss amateur motor manufacturing, and we do not encourage our readers to make them. The reason is that many of our readers are young and could be seriously hurt if they have an accident trying to make a motor. Commercial hobby motor manufacturers spent large amounts of money to make their facilities safe and compliant with government regulations, and the motors they sell to the public are independently tested and certified to be safe when used according to the instruction sheet accompanying the motors. Amateurs simply don't have the resources to duplicate this.
I would like to see this forum lean more towards education (in all aspects of rocketry) and be a bit more open minded about it. I know there was some talk about loosening the rules on here about these topics. I'd like to see more talk and some progress on those. The descussion of amateur/exp rocketry is an aspect of rocketry and it has played a huge part in making model rocketry what it is today. Tripoli even allows for exp days allowing you to test your motors with their blessing as long as you follow their rules.

Please continue discussing allowing this content.

Thanks
John

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#### powderburner

##### Well-Known Member
Iceman,

I am not even an administrator here on TRF but I remember enough of the rules that I agreed to when I signed up. The rule on TRF is simple: they don't want to include EX in this forum. It's theirs, they paid for it, they set it up, they get to make the rules. It really doesn't get much more simple.

Yes, I would like to read and learn more about motor construction, but I also understand the concern for children (small and large) that might take information posted here on TRF and hurt themselves. So if I want to learn about motors, I go to websites like the ones you mentioned. I don't push it here on TRF.

You agreed to these same rules when you signed up here.

#### Iceman1979

##### Well-Known Member
Iceman,

I am not even an administrator here on TRF but I remember enough of the rules that I agreed to when I signed up. The rule on TRF is simple: they don't want to include EX in this forum. It's theirs, they paid for it, they set it up, they get to make the rules. It really doesn't get much more simple.

Yes, I would like to read and learn more about motor construction, but I also understand the concern for children (small and large) that might take information posted here on TRF and hurt themselves. So if I want to learn about motors, I go to websites like the ones you mentioned. I don't push it here on TRF.

You agreed to these same rules when you signed up here.

Yeah I know, I edited my original post.

Thanks
John

#### bobkrech

##### Well-Known Member
When you signed up to TRF, you acknowledged that you will abide by the TRF rules and policies. The prohibition on detailed discussions on amateur motor making is a TRF policy (not my personal policy), however as a TRF moderator I will enforce the rules.

I support myself as an Aerospace and Defense researcher and professional physical chemist who has been involved in propulsion research for 38 years. I am the editor of the NAR S&T Motor Testing Manual and I am the eXSShot Safety Lead for Richard Nakka. I am on my company's Emergency Response Team, and Safety Committee, and have a DOT-SP 8451 special permit for shipping uncharacterized explosives. I am well aware of the hazards associated with making propellants and have the experience, training and certificates to show it. While accidents in amateur motor making are somewhat rare, when they occur, the results aren't pretty. The last thing I want to read is that one of our members got hurt or killed making motors.

TRF primarily serves the vast majority of the rocket community who launch rockets with commercial motors. In the propulsion forum, we welcome discussions all aspects of propulsion, however we draw the line when it comes to specific formulations, amateur motor making and optimizations. I'm sorry that some of you disagree with TRF policy, but you agreed to it when you signed on as TRF members. There are other websites that specialize in amateur motor making, and if it is of interest to you, then by all means participate in them.

Bob Krech, TRF Propulsion Moderator

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#### DAllen

##### Well-Known Member
Why not join Rocketry Planet then? Their policy regarding EX motors is clearly different and more liberal.

Just a thought. TRF is not the be all end all for all things rocketry.

-Dave

#### Iceman1979

##### Well-Known Member
I like it here just fine. I would just like to see this place be a little more open about these topics is all.

Not being able to talk about it isn't going to drive me away nor am I going to break the rules and talk about it. Plus I do more reading than talking when it comes to stuff like that.

Thanks
John

#### quickburst

##### Well-Known Member
TRF Supporter
I would support the discussion of research rocketry, porvided TRF blesses the activity.

#### ben_ullman

##### Well-Known Member
Why is it that the moderators feel THIS site will have problems with children unlike RP or TQC forums? 2 Top EX forums and they don't seem to be worried about this. Being a kid myself its hard to get stuff to make good motors and nothing available to me (under 18) will work as a motor. I got my dad involved to make larger motors.

I agreed to the rules but I would like to talk to you (bob) or troy or who ever feels its a problem and find out why they don't have the same disclaimer (I think they do) as RP? As far as I know I have only heard of one EX death and that was a guy in CA dealing the the gases of hybrid motors and something went awry.

I mean, the motors aren't explosive!!!

Ben

#### rstaff3

##### Oddroc-eteer
Now, where's that image of the dead horse.

#### ben_ullman

##### Well-Known Member
Now, where's that image of the dead horse.
lol. I do remember Troy sayin in the TRF (this one) it was being condsidered and thrown around. Whatever happened to that? I e-mailed him and never got a response

Do you know anything about it??

Ben

#### rstaff3

##### Oddroc-eteer
Don't hold your breath. If this turns around I'll promise never to push the button on your motors while you aren't looking

#### ben_ullman

##### Well-Known Member
Don't hold your breath. If this turns around I'll promise never to push the button on your motors while you aren't looking
lol. that was funny actually. I think it gave Neil a jump too when he announced an A motor rocket an a J was hooked up haha good times!!

Ben

#### bobkrech

##### Well-Known Member
Why is it that the moderators feel THIS site will have problems with children unlike RP or TQC forums? 2 Top EX forums and they don't seem to be worried about this. Being a kid myself its hard to get stuff to make good motors and nothing available to me (under 18) will work as a motor. I got my dad involved to make larger motors.

I agreed to the rules but I would like to talk to you (bob) or troy or who ever feels its a problem and find out why they don't have the same disclaimer (I think they do) as RP? As far as I know I have only heard of one EX death and that was a guy in CA dealing the the gases of hybrid motors and something went awry.

I mean, the motors aren't explosive!!!

Ben
Ben

While I applaud you enthusiasm, but I fault your logic.

That you know of at least death that occurred as a result of amateur motor manufacturing proves that making motors can be hazardous. There have been other fatalities as well, and even the professional have had fatal accidents, so whether APCP is an "explosive" or not, it has been clearly demonstrated that rocket motors are hazardous to manufacture.

It is the intent of federal, state and local regulations to prevent minors (someone under 18) from engaging in potentially hazardous activities where either they, or others around them, can be injured, killed and/or cause damage to the property of others.

A minor (someone under 18) is not legally liable under the law for damages they cause if an accident occurs, unless the action is deemed to have been committed with criminal intent, however their parents, legal guardians or any adult or entity that might have assisted in violation of the law can be sued and found legally liable for contributing to the damages caused. They pay, and you don't.

TRF or anyone else can place all the legal disclaimers they want to on a web page but in reality it offers no legal protection. You can and will be sued by an aggrieved party if they believe you contributed to an accident and they believe that compensation is due them and you have the means to pay.

Being sued is not fun, and it's not cheap as you have to defend yourself even if you did nothing wrong. The resolution of a civil action can take years, cost thousands of dollars and even after you are found to be legally correct, you will likely be out the money you spent on your own behalf. (Been there, done that. Town ZBA makes blatantly illegal ruling and I sue the town on principle for my neighborhood. Was countered-sued by other party. Took 2+ years in court. Won both. Spend $20,000 for legal fees, but only recovered$1,800 by winning the counter-suit. Felt good, saved the neighborhood, but I had a real loss of \$18,200.)

The vast majority of TRF members use commercial motors to launch their rockets. For the small minority of TRF members that make amateur motors, the administrators and moderators of TRF feel there are other forums on the web more suited to discuss amateur motor making, and encourage those who are interested to participate in their forums. That's our policy.

Bob

#### Len B

##### Old Member
TRF Supporter
One question that comes to mind for me is this: Since there are other forums available that do allow and encourage such discussions, why do people continue to request that TRF change its policy?

I bounce around between several of the rocketry related forums. They each have their own "feel" or "genre". I'm O.K. with that. I don't need one place for all things.

I should add that it is very difficult and costly for me to participate in legal research motor making in Canada anyway. I do enjoy reading about it though.

LenB

#### ben_ullman

##### Well-Known Member
I don't need one place for all things.
Thats what I think is benefitual to the community. I personally think there are things that can be done to make a safe TRF/EX community. Make it so the membership in general is not part of the EX forum. Its not part of the public aspect of the forum. When you search, you can see everything BUT the EX forum. Make individual members "apply" to the EX forum. Give a little background. Members with only 25 posts may be part of the community or a member for 2 months or longer ETC. Something to keep the crazy pyro maniacs out.

It can be done, and it should be. But I agree. No matter how many posts I type I don't think TRF will see EX and that is a part of the community that is lacking

The reason there is a large % of commercial vs. research is because its no allowed I could almost garuntee the members who make propellant would increase if it was allowed.

Ben

#### Peartree

##### Cyborg Rocketeer
Staff member
Global Mod
Ben,

You (or someone) asked why there hasn't been more discussion when we said we would discuss this. The short answer is that we did. The Owner, Admins and mods of the forum had lengthy discussions that covered much of the ground that is being brought up here. Our discussions were not public. Our decision was not a 'rush to judgment,' but carefully considered many options and their potential effects and side effects both real and imagined. A lot of thought was put into that discussion and you might be surprised as how far some of it went. Still, the end result is that we couldn't find a way to bring that discussion here in a way that made everyone a high level of confidence so for the time being that's just the way its going to be.

We encourage those who are interested in this aspect of the hobby to visit those places where the discussion is welcome and if you ask we'll even point you in the right direction.

#### rstaff3

##### Oddroc-eteer
lol. that was funny actually. I think it gave Neil a jump too when he announced an A motor rocket an a J was hooked up haha good times!!

Ben
Reminds me of a commercial (Bud Light?)...go ahead, burn Ben's motor, he'll make more. I sooo glad you're a good sport. I might have been banned from range duty.

#### powderburner

##### Well-Known Member
I know that there are many people out there who may well be smart enough and careful enough to work in experimental rocketry. The problem, as I see it, is that there are literally 100 times more (or 1,000 times) who think they are smart enough and careful enough, but simply do not have the proper training, background, education, safety equipment, etc.

And EX is one area where one innocuous little mistake can kill you, or someone else.

I have posted the following comment before, and I have caught a trainload of c^^p for it, but I stand by it and will repeat it: It makes me nervous to see people who cannot take the time to perform simple tasks correctly (like spelling) but feel they are capable of performing much more complex and dangerous activities. I would not like to be standing in their garage when they process chemicals and build rocket motors.

On another thread, I just saw someone post the word "thermite" when he obviously meant "thermalite"....is that important? Probably not. But it makes my point that many of us are not even capable of recognizing that we are not "ready" for EX....and we should thank the TRF mods and admins for protecting us from ourselves.

#### Graham Orr

##### Well-Known Member
I'd like to back Bob on this...

I'm a young Aerospace Engineer who has a degree in General Engineering from a very rigorous engineering program. Even though I have studied motor theory and operation for several years I still am very hesitant about working with propellant.

Like Bob, rocket motors and engines are literally my profession and the more I learn the more I understand failure modes and what can go wrong given inadequate care.

I've seen a lot of people on this forum (and the old TRF) who simply don't have a grasp of the basics. These basics need to be learned in books and classes and everyone young rocketeer should know that forums are not adequate for learning compressible flow or the like. If you want to talk propulsion, I can recommend some books...

Let's see some math!

#### Graham Orr

##### Well-Known Member
we'll talk EX when someone on here (besides Bob) can tell me the significance of the following image, what it does, and how it works:

#### dlb

##### Sky Pyrate...
Ben

so whether APCP is an "explosive" or not

Bob
Though the judge say NOT and the ATF said but, but, but

Could we quit saying this, it is Not, we don't need any negitive phasing at this time. Too many Lawers listening!

EX, we all know that's a NO NO on TRF, and as pointed out, law suits, and again "too many Lawers listening".

#### dlb

##### Sky Pyrate...
we'll talk EX when someone on here (besides Bob) can tell me the significance of the following image, what it does, and how it works:
I still will not talk about EX on any forum, but how about
looks to be a Computations of exhaust plumes and shock waves.

##### Well-Known Member
Things are simpler here. It's illegal to make motors.
A few British rocketeers do, but they go to the USA to do it.
Sure, we all did it when younger, but the Isp was pretty poor.
Made for some good movies though.

#### WiK

Experimental solid motors are illegal in the UK, but hybrid motors aren't. Dunno about liquids...

Phil

#### sylvie369

##### Well-Known Member
we'll talk EX when someone on here (besides Bob) can tell me the significance of the following image, what it does, and how it works:
It's a closeup of a graphics-based fly swatter immediately after use. It works by luring the fly to the y-axis, and then snapping shut on his head.

My second guess involves Tinkerbell, but it's too lewd to post.