Black Powder H rocket

[kramer714]

A friend of mine Dennis give me this rocket that he had built , it is a black powder cluster that I will be launching at LDRS on 19 E12 for a total of 518ns, that works out to be equivalent to a 60%+ H motor.





Uses a flash pan ignition, good fun!

Mike

 

[jeff_j_black]

Smokin'!

 

[Aramus]

Cosmo your first name?

 

[rstaff3]

Isn't that an I motor vs an H?

 

[JDcluster]

Full H comes in at 320 Ns.
An I ranges between 320.1 to 640.00.
Definitely on the larger side of an I motor.


JD

 

[cerving]

Given the E12's history, I wonder how may will light and how many will cato. Guessing you're gonna get the back pad, right next to the M sparkies.

 

[kramer714]

yup, it is a 60%I.

Getting them all started? Not a problem, really, the flash pan works really well.

Will they cato? .... that is another story.

Mike K

 

[rharshberger]

yup, it is a 60%I.

Getting them all started? Not a problem, really, the flash pan works really well.

Will they cato? .... that is another story.

Mike K

If it cato's wouldn't you give it a TNT equivalent instead of a NS.... Thank goodness they aren't E9's.

 

[kramer714]

um, tried it before with E9...... good news was they all lit, bad news was they were E-9, had a few catos....

 

[Bat-mite]

Looks pretty exciting!

 

[soopirV]

yup, it is a 60%I.

Getting them all started? Not a problem, really, the flash pan works really well.

Will they cato? .... that is another story.

Mike K

Can you elaborate on the technique?

 

[g zilla]

I would not recomend flash in the pan . Its not that many motors just wire them upwith a big clip whip. And glue the **** out of the motors.

 

[midpower_madness]

Insanity. Well you never know until you try it.

 

[Winston]

Very cool.

Anyone know of a rocket using a large cluster of Estes 29mm BP motors?

 

[Steve Shannon]

I would not recomend flash in the pan . Its not that many motors just wire them upwith a big clip whip. And glue the **** out of the motors.

If you wire them in parallel, which is how most clip whips are wired, you must multiply the current necessary to light one igniter times 19, the number of motors to be lit.
Robert Briody's report on igniter currents showed Estes igniters using 12 amps each.
https://publicmissiles.com/IgnitersWhitePaperbyG-Wiz.pdf
I don't know what current Estes igniters require, but if it's 12 amps each then you're looking at 228 amps. That requires a pretty substantial launch system.
People who do large clusters usually wire in series or do flash in the pan ignition.

 

[g zilla]

If you wire them in parallel, which is how most clip whips are wired, you must multiply the current necessary to light one igniter times 19, the number of motors to be lit.
Robert Briody's report on igniter currents showed Estes igniters using 12 amps each.
https://publicmissiles.com/IgnitersWhitePaperbyG-Wiz.pdf
I don't know what current Estes igniters require, but if it's 12 amps each then you're looking at 228 amps. That requires a pretty substantial launch system.
People who do large clusters usually wire in series or do flash in the pan ignition.

Combination series and parallel. Or most launch systems use a car battery which should put out more than enough current.

 

[Steve Shannon]

Large batteries might, but you would need welding cables for leads. For comparison, the service to your house is only 100-200 amps.


[emoji1010] Steve Shannon [emoji1010]

 

[dhbarr]

Buncha batteries, buncha relays.

 

[marcusSRG]

Flash pan all the way. Why hate? Used them for years and they are effective and visually enjoyable. Just need to know your rocket's business end will get a bit sooty.

 

[KilroySmith]

I'm sorry, but Robert Briody's report is bull hockey.

Yes, with no current limiting, you can drive 12A through an Estes Igniter with a 12V source. Hell, you could probably drive twice that with a 24 V source. That has nothing to do with how a reasonable person would drive igniters in this scenario. If you limit current (with a resistor) to about 4A per igniter, you're now down to a reasonable 76A for your ignition current. Assuming a large SLA battery, or a car battery, 80A for 100 ms really isn't an issue.

Frankly, I'd install Quest Q2G2 igniters in this puppy, and current limit the igniters to about an amp. They'll ignite within 20 ms or so of each other, and limit the max current to 20A. Definitely the highest probability of success.

/frank

 

[Steve Shannon]

I don't think anybody here knows more about large clusters than Boris Katan. He has already worked through these issues. Simply search for Igniting Large Clusters. Then look at post 25 in that thread.
Here's a Tapatalk link:

https://r.tapatalk.com/shareLink?ur...share_tid=112185&share_fid=80665&share_type=t


[emoji1010] Steve Shannon [emoji1010]

 

[g zilla]

I launched 241 estes d-12 and 9 c-6 motors cluster with flash in the pan. Thats how I know its not reliable.16" sonotube stuffed with as many motors as I could fit. 1 1/2 lbs black powder and a bunch aluninum and titanium powder about 80 percent lit right away 10 acouple seconds later. 12 never lit.

 

[marcusSRG]

I launched 241 estes d-12 and 9 c-6 motors cluster with flash in the pan. Thats how I know its not reliable.16" sonotube stuffed with as many motors as I could fit. 1 1/2 lbs black powder and a bunch aluninum and titanium powder about 80 percent lit right away 10 acouple seconds later. 12 never lit.

Not terrible for 12 out of 241 not going. Sounds like an impressive flight regardless.

For larger flash pans tape works well - essentially bp coated tape taped right to the nozzles. Mythbusters did an iteration of this. Also a taped quickmatch-bp combo as Boris has done seems to work well:

https://bpasa.com/HellBoy.htm

https://bpasa.com/HellBoy.htm

 

[Steve Shannon]

I launched 241 estes d-12 and 9 c-6 motors cluster with flash in the pan. Thats how I know its not reliable.16" sonotube stuffed with as many motors as I could fit. 1 1/2 lbs black powder and a bunch aluninum and titanium powder about 80 percent lit right away 10 acouple seconds later. 12 never lit.

That's impressive! I would have enjoyed seeing it.

 

[g zilla]

That's impressive! I would have enjoyed seeing it.

Go 200 feet in the air turn over and slam into the ground. Motors flying everywhere.I had them epoxied together and about 10-12 screws going thru various points. Thats why I said to epoxy the **** out of them. I dont think I put enough epoxy on the motors.I will try to find pictures this was about 95-96 so no digital picyures.