Best protection against aggressive dogs

The Rocketry Forum

Help Support The Rocketry Forum:

This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links, including eBay, Amazon, and others.

cbwho

Well-Known Member
Joined
Mar 20, 2019
Messages
433
Reaction score
300
Location
USA
Even though the city clearly states dogs must be leashed for some some reason bad dog owners don't care.

Today while on the barren frozen lake on park property, 2 people with 4 unleashed dogs walking, let one of their dogs come up to the launch site aggressively barking at my young son. They lied and said it was a puppy and wanted to play. Complete horse poo as the dog's tail wasn't wagging, the dog was at least 9 months old, and people need to realize that the time to train a dog is when it's little! I know as we had dogs as a kid and my brother was a professional dog trainer. I have had friendly dogs come up to us and that's not the problem...

At the incident my only recourse was to harshly remind the owners that it's park property, etc. What would you bring along for self defense?

Next time I will film the dog but I do need to defend my young son.

What's super annoying is that the lake is over 100 acres and nearly empty except for 4 fisherman. It's like going to the bathroom with 10 empty urinals and some jerk needs to pee in the urinal you are using. Surely they could stick to the 99 acres we are not using?

Brighter notes:
Except for the extremely cloudy day, the launch conditions are perfect with near zero wind. Eagerly awaiting my nylon chutes as streamers on ice results in broken fins. A huge benefit of hard snow is that all the gliders we launched was easily visible for after landing. I launched my NASA pegasus clone and the flight was perfect and the landing via streamer was a perfect belly flop which slowed it down nicely. See the images attached for how vacant the lake was...
 

Attachments

  • Screenshot_20210118-074615~2.png
    Screenshot_20210118-074615~2.png
    1.3 MB · Views: 29
  • IMG_20210117_155616_01.jpg
    IMG_20210117_155616_01.jpg
    75.4 KB · Views: 28
Not sure of a “defense”, although you would be entitled to it, I hate seeing an animal suffer (even pepper spray or mace) because the owner is stupid (sort of like, “there is no such thing as an illegitimate child, simply one [or more commonly two] recklessly irresponsible quasi-adults.”). Spraying the OWNER although tempting and certainly poetic justice is probably not advisable. SPAYING the owner, preferably before they procreate, likewise tempting but in most cases not practical.

You may want to try out some of those pocket pen spy cameras, I don’t know how well they work, and I am sure there is a lot of variation in quality, but you could surreptitiously turn it on when uninvited dogs or people approach you (may want to check your local laws on this). AFTER turning it on as they, without your permission, approach, THEN get out your real phone or camera and tell the owner that you are about to take pictures to document violation of park rules (BTW, make sure your rocket launching is okay, first! Sorta like, You don’t go into a police station to report a theft carrying a loaded weapon without a permit.)

The reason for the first camera is some ill mannered people (there are other terms but this is a family forum) may threaten you if you try to film them openly. Assuming surreptitious video is legal under these circumstances, their actions may dig them a deeper hole.

The other good thing about having a body-cam on you that YOU know is documenting things is YOU are more likely to stay calm and reasonable. Ideally when you pull out your phone or camera the violator will restrain his or her dog and back off, if not you want clear continuous unedited audio and video footage that shows you being calm and rationale and the dog owner, well, not.

I also think a really good source of information (although I also believe in the tooth fairy) would be to contact your local police station and ask them how a civilian should handle such a situation. They should also be able to provide input of the legality of both announced and surreptitious video without the other’s consent. I don’t want to get YOU in trouble!
 
Our local law

While you generally are permitted to photograph or record video of people without permission in most public places, it is illegal to photograph a person when that individual has a reasonable expectation of privacy if that photograph would "offend or embarass an ordinary person" or if the photograph was taken for the "purpose of sexual arousal or gratificaiton of the defendant."
 
The attached link article (to me) was interesting and encouraging, although I think it would be wise to check with your local law enforcement. They may actually recommend it

Note California doesn’t allow audio. :(:(:(


I particularly liked this part

As of 2020, only five states require some police departments to wear body cameras. California, Connecticut, Florida, Nevada, and South Carolina have police body camera laws. In California, police are typically required to wear body cameras. However, police recording requires consent from all parties.



Aaahhh, yeah, right.....:rolleyes:

https://www.aircraftcompare.com/blog/body-cameras/#is-it-legal-to-wear-a-body-camera-in-public
 
Last edited:
Also interesting

https://mobilevideoguard.com/video-surveillance-laws-by-state/
Remember the audio conversations mentioned earlier? These laws come into play when discussing video surveillance too. After all, if your cameras are capable of recording audio, you need to follow the rules surrounding these laws as well.

As with video surveillance laws, audio recording laws vary from state to state. However, there are federal laws currently in place for audio recording. Federal law states that you can legally record a conversation as long as one of the people involved knows about it.

37 of the 50 states abide by these laws, while the other 13 have created their own version of this federal standard. In these states, all parties involved in the audio recording must give consent. That means you can’t secretly record a conversation by slipping a recording device in your pocket or wearing a wire.

That means that if you reside in one of the following states, you can get into legal trouble if your video surveillance equipment has audio recording capabilities.

  • Washington
  • California
  • Nevada
  • Oregon
  • Illinois
  • Michigan
  • Montana
  • Florida
  • Maryland
  • Connecticut
  • New Hampshire
  • Pennsylvania
  • Massachusetts
 
When we walk our dogs, I figure I've got a Plan A, B, and C if an aggressive dog comes after us (and there is one that's getting closer and closer to getting through his fence...). Plan A is I yell at the dog. Plan B is pepper spray. Plan C is in a holster. Whether B and C are available to you depends on where you live, of course. Maybe a good stout stick as another option?
 
Even though the city clearly states dogs must be leashed for some some reason bad dog owners don't care.

Today while on the barren frozen lake on park property, 2 people with 4 unleashed dogs walking, let one of their dogs come up to the launch site aggressively barking at my young son. They lied and said it was a puppy and wanted to play. Complete horse poo as the dog's tail wasn't wagging, the dog was at least 9 months old, and people need to realize that the time to train a dog is when it's little! I know as we had dogs as a kid and my brother was a professional dog trainer. I have had friendly dogs come up to us and that's not the problem...

At the incident my only recourse was to harshly remind the owners that it's park property, etc. What would you bring along for self defense?

Next time I will film the dog but I do need to defend my young son.

What's super annoying is that the lake is over 100 acres and nearly empty except for 4 fisherman. It's like going to the bathroom with 10 empty urinals and some jerk needs to pee in the urinal you are using. Surely they could stick to the 99 acres we are not using?

Brighter notes:
Except for the extremely cloudy day, the launch conditions are perfect with near zero wind. Eagerly awaiting my nylon chutes as streamers on ice results in broken fins. A huge benefit of hard snow is that all the gliders we launched was easily visible for after landing. I launched my NASA pegasus clone and the flight was perfect and the landing via streamer was a perfect belly flop which slowed it down nicely. See the images attached for how vacant the lake was...
You absolutely have the right to defend yourself and your family! I used to walk my dogs on a 'river walk' next to a wash (dry river bed). There was a lady who would take her two unleashed dogs in the middle of the wash. When they saw my dogs (100-200 yards away) they would charge us. They were very aggressive. After they bit my dogs I started carrying bear spray. The owner refused to leash her dogs. On subsequent attacks the bear spray worked perfectly! I'm a dog lover and don't like doing this but find it necessary when owners of aggressive dogs act irresponsibly.
Bear spray.jpg
 
after spraying the dog, if the owner gets hostile, spray his ass a couple times too..... as for all the stupid audio/video recording laws......it seems the only people who can record you anymore is the GD government and they sure don't ask your permission.....with the surveillance state they got going on....
 
Back when I was allowed to jog I would take two of my dogs with me. Secured in harnesses and on leashes. To protect the dogs and myself I carried a retractable police baton, 26 inch I think. It's a bit heavy but has proved quite effective as both a deterrent and a defensive weapon. Some dogs and almost all human threats are stopped by the shnick/clack when the baton is extended. If needed, strike quickly and strike hard.
 
Back when I was allowed to jog I would take two of my dogs with me. Secured in harnesses and on leashes. To protect the dogs and myself I carried a retractable police baton, 26 inch I think. It's a bit heavy but has proved quite effective as both a deterrent and a defensive weapon. Some dogs and almost all human threats are stopped by the shnick/clack when the baton is extended. If needed, strike quickly and strike hard.
Batons are a good defensive weapon but........
Can you legally carry a collapsible baton?
Batons and sticks are generally legal to own; however, in many states, they are not legal for civilians to carry for defensive purposes. In some states, you need to be a police officer or on-duty security guard with a particular permit in order to legally carry a baton.
 
When we walk our dogs, I figure I've got a Plan A, B, and C if an aggressive dog comes after us (and there is one that's getting closer and closer to getting through his fence...). Plan A is I yell at the dog. Plan B is pepper spray. Plan C is in a holster. Whether B and C are available to you depends on where you live, of course. Maybe a good stout stick as another option?
That about covers it.... :)
 
Dang, sorry to hear that!

Our last launch day was cut short by some moron with his two unleashed dogs. Not the first time aggressive unleashed dogs have ruined our trip. Its actually a huge problem.

Literally attacking/mauling kids at the park. I had to go physically catch and restrain the dog. Owner smiles and says "he's just a big pup". Sign clearly says 'Pets must be on leash.'

Bear spray, one for the dog and one for the idiot owner.
 
Not sure of a “defense”, although you would be entitled to it, I hate seeing an animal suffer (even pepper spray or mace) because the owner is stupid...

You may want to try out some of those pocket pen spy cameras...
I want to agree with this. I really, really want to agree with this. Yet, recording the incident doesn't help you in the moment if a dog actually attacks.

Someone mentioned yelling at the dog. I've had success a couple of times by showing threatening behavior in dog language - stare, bare teeth while growling - provided the dog is a good bunch smaller than I it backs off.

Failing all that, I guess bear spray or pepper spray is the best answer. I've never felt the need to carry it, but then I've never spent much time in places where I'm likely to need it.

And, recording the whole incident is still a good idea, whether spray comes into it or not. Don't bear spray the owner - tempting though that sounds - unless s/he is equally aggressive. In that case, do it without hesitation.
 
Batons are a good defensive weapon but........
Can you legally carry a collapsible baton?
Batons and sticks are generally legal to own; however, in many states, they are not legal for civilians to carry for defensive purposes. In some states, you need to be a police officer or on-duty security guard with a particular permit in order to legally carry a baton.


Well, that opened a whole barrel of worms.....
In Arkansas it appears that you can buy and own a baton, but you can't carry it concealed or otherwise, or for use it against another person.
Even with a CHCL it doesn't appear to be legal.
I've been a criminal for years now but unaware of that fact.
 
Pepper spray is legal to carry in CA for defense against animals (and people). You can get in trouble if you use it unjustifiably... that's assault, not a good charge to have on your record. You can sue the owner in civil court of a dog if it bites you, regardless of how "gentle" the dog has been in the past. Many states have a "one bite" law... the dog has to be proven to be a biter before you can bring a suit, not so in CA. As a dog owner, you're expected to know this, which is why there are leash laws... you are responsible for the conduct of your dog.
 
Plan A is "if you'd like to call the police, we can report your unleashed, aggressive dog together".

My only experience with an aggressive dog was while mountain biking on multiuse trails at a park. The unleashed dog charged in front of me, I hit it and crashed into a creek. The dog was injured, my bike damaged, but I was fine. The irate owner only calmed down when I told him the same thing you posted.
 
Well, that opened a whole barrel of worms.....
In Arkansas it appears that you can buy and own a baton, but you can't carry it concealed or otherwise, or for use it against another person.
Even with a CHCL it doesn't appear to be legal.
I've been a criminal for years now but unaware of that fact.
Just claim you are a drum major or a majorette and it, um, slipped.

I know in high school I almost conked myself out a couple times. That mace was heavy.
 
I've been around a few aggressive dogs, and it is an intimidation thing, usually. So, you just need to be more intimidating.. usually. sometimes the dog is just focused & in "protection mode" I have also grabbed a dog by the collar, and yanked it up, off it's two front feet (and if you do it right, the collar is up on the neck, and it cant swing around & bite you..

A knee or a good pointed finger jab into it's neck is also a good deterrent (Cesar Milan: "that's a bite") and in some cases, pin the dog down to show it who's boss.

If you can, grab both their back legs & lift of the ground a la "wheelbarrow" & drag back.. They usually get quite surprised & stop.. it also throws them off balance. But you gotta know the dog!

But first, for me it's a very loud "Call off your F@#$%g dog, NOW" followed with "I don't give a F%$^^*&" when they respond.. All as I walk into the dog's space, claiming their space, and then walking into it, pushing it back (keep claiming the space it occupies)..

Some dogs are bred to protect, and it's in their instincts. Some dogs are protecting a weak or submissive owner (the little yappy thing on Grandma's lap), but most have no limits or boundaries. no consistent training on what is and is not allowed. "oh, he's just a puppy" is not an excuse, and lousy one if in people's faces & off leash!) And, some just get a dog as a status symbol, or a visual "look at me, I'm a tough guy" and teh dog is more than they can control handle..

We've done a fair amount with our dog. Proper & consistent recall training is a must!! (and if you cannot get consistent result, a leash, or a long leash even..) We let her off leash in the park, but will leash her up when we see others; people and or dogs. It's a courtesy thing, really. (we then let the dogs meet, on leash, then we all decide if they want to play off leash..)



But sadly, like with crying babies, why we are supposed to "understand"..
 
Batons and sticks are generally legal to own; however, in many states, they are not legal for civilians to carry for defensive purposes.

So go on OFFENSE! throw in some 4 letter words to make sure you definitely come across as offensive!
 
In Ken
Batons are a good defensive weapon but........
Can you legally carry a collapsible baton?
Batons and sticks are generally legal to own; however, in many states, they are not legal for civilians to carry for defensive purposes. In some states, you need to be a police officer or on-duty security guard with a particular permit in order to legally carry a baton.
[/QUOT
So go on OFFENSE! throw in some 4 letter words to make sure you definitely come across as offensive!
don't get me started......lol 🤣 I'm an equal opportunity offender...
 
Some dogs are bred to protect, and it's in their instincts. Some dogs are protecting a weak or submissive owner (the little yappy thing on Grandma's lap), but most have no limits or boundaries.
There is also a fear response making dogs aggressive. Either the dog is picking up on fear from the owner, or more likely the dog is afraid of the unknown situation and is unsure the owner is going to be able to keep it safe, so they growl, bark, show their teeth, and might bite.

In all cases, blame the owner for sure, but as much as it would feel good to mace the owner, it might scare the dog more.
 
I love dogs. I've owned and raised several over my life. Dogs are like people in that each has its own personality and unless you know the dog, you have no idea what it'll do. Whenever I'm out, I'm armed (not related to dogs). If a dog aggressively charges me, I'll draw and yell at the owner to control their dog. I had the police called on me once for doing that. I explained that the dog was unleashed and charged me aggressively and I feared it would attack. At that point the owners got a fine for an unleashed dog and I was free to go. I've never seen the same dog unleashed twice after drawing on it(owners learned their lesson?). In my city, it is illegal to discharge a firearm *unless* to protect persons or property. I've never had the need to discharge my firearm for that reason and I hope I never do.
 
Well, that opened a whole barrel of worms.....
In Arkansas it appears that you can buy and own a baton, but you can't carry it concealed or otherwise, or for use it against another person.
Even with a CHCL it doesn't appear to be legal.
I've been a criminal for years now but unaware of that fact.

Simple, it’s the Llamas’ baton... 🦙
 
While I wholeheartedly support people using whatever is necessary to defend life and limb for themselves or the party they are with against aggressive dogs, if it is at all possible to safely exit the scene WITHOUT resorting to ANY sort of violence (including pepper spray, batons, and other weapons), THIS is the best response. I understand that is not always the case, and the strong (and on the surface seemingly justified) temptation to do otherwise. But however much it sticks in your craw, in these situations it is more important for you and your loved (or well-liked) ones to be SAFE than it is for you to be RIGHT.

Charging aggressive dog coming down on my kid, no question if I have no other DEFINITELY SUCCESSFUL option I would blow it away if i had the weapon to do it, but if we can get away and launch another day (possibly after filing a police report), all jesting aside, that’s the best option.

Getting into a shouting match with the owner, especially with a big aggressive dog in the picture.....,I’m not liking the possible outcomes. Call me a wimp.
 
This time I do agree, completely. One consideration though is that there a lot of mid-size dogs which I can face down but can't outrun.
 
When my dogs were attacked I was on higher ground and watched the dogs charging from over 100 yards away. I yelled as loud as I could at the dogs and their owner but they kept coming. One dog was coming straight for me but my dog intercepted it getting bitten and injured doing so. The owner said and did nothing. The second and third time it happened I was ready and hit them with bear spray when they were 10-15 feet away. I live in Arizona which is still the wild west! Open carry and concealed carry are legal without a permit. You can carry any damn thing you want! Still, the use of a firearm would be my last line of defense.
 
Even though the city clearly states dogs must be leashed for some some reason bad dog owners don't care.[...]
Today while on the barren frozen lake on park property, 2 people with 4 unleashed dogs walking, let one of their dogs come up to the launch site aggressively barking at my young son. [...]
At the incident my only recourse was to harshly remind the owners that it's park property, etc. What would you bring along for self defense?

As a dog owner and elementary kids parent, I occasionally run into these situations. But, very VERY rarely.
Even though the object of your discomfort is the dog, the root cause is ALWAYS with the owner. Either because they don't train their pets, don't pay attention, have perverse expectations of what constitutes appropriate dog behavior, or plain don't care.

What I found works best is a direct engagement with the owner.
Most people don't come to a public place to seek conflict, and respond positively to opportunities to de-escalate, if you present it to them.
I start with a polite but insistent reminder of the leash laws, and firm request that that those should be followed in my presence. That usually does that trick.
When that is not sufficient, I leisurely take out the phone and inform the owner that I plan to document our interaction for the benefit of local police department and YouTube. The realization that the person and his/her dog's behavior is about to become public knowledge, quickly resets the engagement 99% of the time. In the positive direction.

Then there was that one singular 1% exception case where all of the above had failed to positively effect the engagement.
In that case, you go into self-defense mode, as situation and local laws allow. But only as the last resort.

I see a lot of provisions being discussed about what to do in that 1% situation, and would like to emphasize that 99% of the time, there is a more productive and less violent solution to the problem.

YMMV,
a
 
Back
Top