Quantcast

Best/Largest V2 in MPR

The Rocketry Forum

Help Support The Rocketry Forum:

gary7

Well-Known Member
Joined
Aug 2, 2009
Messages
656
Reaction score
57
Location
Mahomet, IL
Don't know where else to post these questions but since I am considering an MPR version: 1) What is the absolute biggest V2 available that will fly on a G or smaller? 2) Are there any stock V2's that fly on clusters or has anyone made this modification? In other words, a cluster of Fs or Gs rather than H or larger? Thanks
 

jcDerRedMax

Member
Joined
Jul 13, 2009
Messages
19
Reaction score
0
Don't know where else to post these questions but since I am considering an MPR version: 1) What is the absolute biggest V2 available that will fly on a G or smaller? 2) Are there any stock V2's that fly on clusters or has anyone made this modification? In other words, a cluster of Fs or Gs rather than H or larger? Thanks
There was a sport rocketry article on a 4" V2 made out of paper. Much lighter weight than the plastic nose cone/fincan/fins of the Estes V2. I don't know if it got written up in EMRR or is available online anywhere.
 

Handeman

Well-Known Member
TRF Supporter
Joined
Jan 18, 2009
Messages
7,751
Reaction score
346
Location
Stafford, VA
The G64W, G71R and G76G all have more the 22.5 lbs of thrust for at least the first 0.25 seconds and are still over 20 lbs after 0.5 seconds. Any V2 model below 4 - 4.5 lbs lift off weight should do fine on calm days.

The Loc Precision 3.90" V2 says it will fly fine on F & G but will take H to J 38mm too. The R2 /ARO is the Russian and Canadian versions of the V2. They are 5.38" diameter and listed 42 oz. That would work on G motor. They actually list F-I motors as recommended for it.

You can always scratch build it. A big, light version in about 7" should be do-able on a G.
 

georgegassaway

Lifetime Supporter
TRF Lifetime Supporter
Joined
Jan 18, 2009
Messages
4,632
Reaction score
494
The best V-2 really was the Estes Maxi-Brute. It was a bit underpowered on a D12. But with an E or F, it would fly great. Weight of UNDER one pound.

So if you could find one in an auction at a decent price, that would be best.

OK, sure, you could get some other 4” V-2 made with HPR type parts, that will weigh so much more than the Estes on that model would not fly as well on a G as the Estes one can fly on an F. I have never see the point in overkill-heavy rockets that require much more expensive engines to fly on than they could have used if designed/built lighter.

- George Gassaway
 

MaxQ

Tripoli 2747
Joined
Jan 18, 2009
Messages
4,416
Reaction score
59
Location
Central Viginia - USA
The best V-2 really was the Estes Maxi-Brute. It was a bit underpowered on a D12. But with an E or F, it would fly great. Weight of UNDER one pound.

So if you could find one in an auction at a decent price, that would be best.

OK, sure, you could get some other 4” V-2 made with HPR type parts, that will weigh so much more than the Estes on that model would not fly as well on a G as the Estes one can fly on an F. I have never see the point in overkill-heavy rockets that require much more expensive engines to fly on than they could have used if designed/built lighter.

- George Gassaway
<I have never see the point in overkill-heavy rockets that require much more expensive engines to fly on than they could have used if designed/built lighter>

Amen to that.
 

gerbs4me

Well-Known Member
Joined
Sep 21, 2009
Messages
3,107
Reaction score
4
Location
Iowa
The Estes V-2's are great! I agree they are a bit underpowered on a D12, I've flown mine on E-28's, flys great!
 

MarkII

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jan 18, 2009
Messages
8,250
Reaction score
10
If we could only find a BT-101-sized nose cone and tail cone for use in cloning a Maxi-Brute V-2 (a k a "German V-2" from '78-'81). I shudder when I think about what an original kit must go for on eBay now. :eek:

MarkII
 

roadkill

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jan 30, 2009
Messages
1,731
Reaction score
0
Scratch build one:



Here's my Solaris taking to skies on AT G64W-4

She's made of Aerotech 4" nosecones and body tube.
Basically a stretced V-2 with different fins.

Rather cheap to build and lightweight, has even flown on
AT G33J that was really slow off the rod...
 

georgegassaway

Lifetime Supporter
TRF Lifetime Supporter
Joined
Jan 18, 2009
Messages
4,632
Reaction score
494
If we could only find a BT-101-sized nose cone and tail cone for use in cloning a Maxi-Brute V-2 (a k a "German V-2" from '78-'81). I shudder when I think about what an original kit must go for on eBay now. :eek:
Well, *I* shudder when I think of the cost of engines to fly a needlessly heavy V-2 of the same size, weighing 2, 3, or even 4 times as much as the Estes kit.

:eek:

BTW - Estes re-released the Maxi V-2 in the late 1990&#8217;s, and those are out there at less cost on eBay than the original 1975 era kit would go for. As I do a &#8220;completed items&#8221; search on eBay, I see the last three Maxi V-2&#8217;s (Nov 1st thru 3rd) went for $75, $57.50, and $76 (that one was built). This kit retailed for $50 ten years ago!

In the long run, I think a person would be better off getting the Estes V-2 off of eBay. Because they could make it fly better on an E than a 3 to 4 times heavier V-2 could ever fly on a G. So, it would be a lot less costly to fly in the long run even if it did cost a lot to buy (but in truth the Estes kit on eBay is the best deal anyway, other than the paper-based models).

Or, they could get the Estes V-2 to fly way way higher an a G than any of the HPR-part-based V-2 can. Actually, the Estes V-2 could fly higher on a 70 n-sec F than even a 2 times heavier V-2 could on a G.

Oh, one thing. With a larger diameter motor mount, and any larger motors, the V-2 would have more mass in the back than designed. So it would need some noseweight to keep stable. Not a lot, but this is a reminder of a key thing to not overlook.

OK, found this website. A page of all known V-2 kits. For 4&#8221;, the cheapest non-Estes kit is $76, same price the most expensive recent Maxi V-2 went for on eBay.

http://www.postwarv2.com/flyingkits/flyingkits.html

- George Gassaway
 

roadkill

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jan 30, 2009
Messages
1,731
Reaction score
0
Hmmm...

Let's see today's prices...

AT 4" nosecones at A to Z hobbies @ $15.- apiece + $ 30.-
AT 4" tube 23" long @ $10.-
some plywood
29mm motor tube
Roadkill retainer $5.-

Total $60 - $75.- ready to fly...

Not bad for over 3 feet tall 4" rocket that's
a honkin' lot bigger than Estes MaxiV-2 for less money...
:D
 

Pem Tech

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jan 20, 2009
Messages
4,449
Reaction score
60
Scratch build one:



Here's my Solaris taking to skies on AT G64W-4

She's made of Aerotech 4" nosecones and body tube.
Basically a stretced V-2 with different fins.

Rather cheap to build and lightweight, has even flown on
AT G33J that was really slow off the rod...
Ooooohhh...
I recognize that rocket...
*wink*
*wink*
*nod*
*nod*
:cheers:
 

MarkII

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jan 18, 2009
Messages
8,250
Reaction score
10
To save on weight, would it be possible (or advisable) to use a pair of Aerotech nose cones with a BT-101 airframe? Maybe stiffen the BT-101 with two or three strategically-placed internal couplers?

MarkII
 

georgegassaway

Lifetime Supporter
TRF Lifetime Supporter
Joined
Jan 18, 2009
Messages
4,632
Reaction score
494
I see little point in taking two extremely heavy Aerotech 4” cones and then “saving weight” using a BT-101. The tubing is not the heavy part of a V-2 model, because the tube part is actually pretty short compared to the nose cone and tailcone.

To each their own, enjoy whatever you get (or have), whatever it costs to fly it all the time, and whatever the performance is.

Just for the heck of it, does anyone know the mass of a 4” Aerotech cone, or LOC? It is not to pick on Aerotech or LOC, I am not aware of any HPR-based 4” cone that is of any reasonable mass for a rocket like this. Wish I could find a leftover V-2 Maxi nose that I have to weigh it, because most here would be stunned to know how light it is. I will guesstimate it weighs less than 4 ounces, while I think most HPR 4” cones are in the area of a pound, or more. Keep in mind the whole Estes kit weighed 14 ounces.

- George Gassaway
 

MarkII

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jan 18, 2009
Messages
8,250
Reaction score
10
I see little point in taking two extremely heavy Aerotech 4” cones and then “saving weight” using a BT-101.
I didn't realize that they were heavy. I've never seen any Aerotech kit parts. :confused2:

Actually, I have never seen a 4" diameter nose cone from any manufacturer.

Just for the heck of it, does anyone know the mass of a 4” Aerotech cone, or LOC? It is not to pick on Aerotech or LOC, I am not aware of any HPR-based 4” cone that is of any reasonable mass for a rocket like this. Wish I could find a leftover V-2 Maxi nose that I have to weigh it, because most here would be stunned to know how light it is. I will guesstimate it weighs less than 4 ounces, while I think most HPR 4” cones are in the area of a pound, or more.
Huh?!?! :confused:

BTW, doesn't the V-2 design usually require nose weight for stability?

Please forgive me if this is a dumb question. I have never built a V-2.

EDIT: Does Mercury Engineering or Madcow sell any lightweight 4" nose cones that would be suitable? The problem with buying a kit off eBay is that I have to compete with a hundred other bidders, and usually get sniped right at the end. I would also never know what the kit would ultimately cost me, or that I will even have the money for one when it ever comes up. I much prefer building clones, because I can control the parts selection and the cost, and I know when I will be able to obtain them. Plus I know that the parts are in new condition and that they have a warranty.

MarkII
 
Last edited:

terryg

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jan 19, 2009
Messages
2,514
Reaction score
51
Location
Tucson, Az
There are two AT 4 inch nosecones. One (white plastic) is 5 oz and the second heavier duty one (grey plastic) is 9 oz.
 

Handeman

Well-Known Member
TRF Supporter
Joined
Jan 18, 2009
Messages
7,751
Reaction score
346
Location
Stafford, VA
There is no arguing with lighter flies higher. The 14 oz Estes kit will fly higher on the same or smaller motor then an HPR based kit of the same size and will be cheaper to fly to the same altitudes.

The question posted wasn't about altitude or cost of flying. What was asked for was what is the biggest V2 kit available that can be flown on a G or smaller motor. At 58oz (3lbs 10oz) the Loc Precision 5.38" Dia. R2 or ARO (Russian & Canadian V2 versions) are the largest models that can be flown on a G motor.

These are designed for H - J motors and will only get 400 ft on a G. Using a 6' rail and a G76G motor they will top 50 ft/sec off the rail and just over 400 ft altitude.

Are these the best MPR V2 models, that's a matter of opinion. Are these the biggest, yes, as far as I know.

These are obviously build for L1 to L2 motors. Could you scratch build a bigger but lighter model then this. I'm sure it could be done.

gary7, welcome to the world of compromise.:D
 

gary7

Well-Known Member
Joined
Aug 2, 2009
Messages
656
Reaction score
57
Location
Mahomet, IL
The question posted wasn't about altitude or cost of flying. What was asked for was what is the biggest V2 kit available that can be flown on a G or smaller motor. At 58oz (3lbs 10oz) the Loc Precision 5.38" Dia. R2 or ARO (Russian & Canadian V2 versions) are the largest models that can be flown on a G motor.

These are designed for H - J motors and will only get 400 ft on a G. Using a 6' rail and a G76G motor they will top 50 ft/sec off the rail and just over 400 ft altitude.
Thank you, Handeman. Not to doubt you or anything, but do you get this flight info from Rocksim, calculate it some other way or do you just know?
 

georgegassaway

Lifetime Supporter
TRF Lifetime Supporter
Joined
Jan 18, 2009
Messages
4,632
Reaction score
494
I got an Estes V-2 Maxi kit out of storage.

The nose cone weighs 112 grams (3.95 ounces).

The Tail cone weighs 120 grams (4.24 ounces). May sound strange since it is a bit shorter than the nose cone, but it has the correct molded cross section to the bottom that matches the real thing (the real V-2 tail section was not just the shape of a backwards nose cone with the tip trimmed off).

The BT-101 tubing weighs 37 grams ( 1.31 ounces). Of course there are other parts, including the fins, engine mount, and so forth, but those are the actual parts that can be compared with in making a scratchbuilt model from other parts.

The name of the thread was what is the BEST/Largest model, for MPR. Not Largest regardless of what it flies like.

The Estes Maxi is the most accurate scale-wise. It is the best flyer if one goes by how much it cost to get to it a given altitude range, it will fly about as high on an E15 as a 2.5-3 pound V-2 on a G, and way outfly any G power 4&#8221; V-2 over 3 pounds while just using an E15. It is the best flier on a G if only a G matters, since it will outfly a 2.5 pound rocket on a G motor by about a 2.5 to 1 margin. It will even fly higher on an F than a 2.5 pound G powered V-2 would.

If the Estes V-2 was upgraded with a 29mm mount and made capable of flying on an F or G, then, yes, it would need SOME noseweight to account for the heavier engine and tailweight added to the bigger mount. But that does not mean that a heavier nose cone is the right solution. Over 1/3 of the V-2 length is nose cone, and most of the mass of the nose cone is closer to the base than to the tip. So the most effective way to add noseweight would not be by using a heavier nose, but to add noseweight inside the TIP of a lighter nose cone (and the Estes V-2 Max is the lightest cone), so less noseweight would be needed overall to achieve the desired CG.

BTW - The HPR-parts based V-2s may well indeed require a lot of noseweight since they are mostly way overbuilt from tip to tail. But I was not talking about those.

- George Gassaway
 
Last edited:

MarkII

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jan 18, 2009
Messages
8,250
Reaction score
10
The name of the thread was what is the BEST/Largest model, for MPR. Not Largest regardless of what it flies like.

The Estes Maxi is the most accurate scale-wise. It is the best flyer if one goes by how much it cost to get to it a given altitude range, it will fly about as high on an E15 as a 2.5-3 pound V-2 on a G, and way outfly any G power 4” V-2 over 3 pounds while just using an E15. It is the best flier on a G if only a G matters, since it will outfly a 2.5 pound rocket on a G motor by about a 2.5 to 1 margin. It will even fly higher on an F than a 2.5 pound G powered V-2 would.
Well, you've certainly sold me on it, then. If I ever get the chance, I'll grab one (and yes, I'll build it). :cheers:

MarkII
 

gary7

Well-Known Member
Joined
Aug 2, 2009
Messages
656
Reaction score
57
Location
Mahomet, IL
The name of the thread was what is the BEST/Largest model, for MPR. Not Largest regardless of what it flies like./QUOTE]

When I asked for the "best/largest" that is what I intended to find out. The term "best" implies/includes all aspects of the rocket: structure or durability and build; flight; appearance; etc. The term "largest" means exactly what the word implies: the biggest in terms of over all size - that will fly on a G or smaller.

So I am concerned about quality of flight as well as anything else one normally considers when choosing a rocket.
 

roadkill

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jan 30, 2009
Messages
1,731
Reaction score
0
If the Estes V-2 was upgraded with a 29mm mount and made capable of flying on an F or G, then, yes, it would need SOME noseweight to account for the heavier engine and tailweight added to the bigger mount.
- George Gassaway

Quick approximation on Rocksim:

4oz of noseweight at the tip of the nose for AT G64W-8
apogee at change shy of 2000'....
1.5 caliber margin
 

Handeman

Well-Known Member
TRF Supporter
Joined
Jan 18, 2009
Messages
7,751
Reaction score
346
Location
Stafford, VA
Thank you, Handeman. Not to doubt you or anything, but do you get this flight info from Rocksim, calculate it some other way or do you just know?
Most of this I pull from WRASP32. It allows you to sim a flight with just a diameter, weight, Cd and a selected motor. I usually use 0.7 or 0.75 for the Cd which is conservative. For a ballpark sim, it's pretty close. You can also import and use drag profiles created in Aerolab to increase the accuracy. I've found this has been very easy to dial in for my existing rockets and the sims match real flight pretty well.
 

RocketT.Coyote

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jan 20, 2009
Messages
1,222
Reaction score
74
Kitbashed an Estes semi-scale V-2 into a V-2 Blossom and lost it during a demo in Alpena this Summer.

Also have an Atlantic/Mountainside sport-scale V-2 in the fleet.

Once had a Maxi-Brute V-2 slam into a sheet-metal pole barn on an E9-4. That was the final motor in the pack. Has wreckage picture somewhere. Estes sent a replacement kit and some D motors.

That's why you should have hobby insurance!
:merry-christmas:
 
Last edited:

MarkII

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jan 18, 2009
Messages
8,250
Reaction score
10
Once had a Maxi-Brute V-2 slam into a sheet-metal pole barn on an E9-4. That was the final motor in the pack. Has wreckage picture somewhere. Estes sent a replacement kit and some D motors.
Still doing damage 65 years later! So much for your Anderson shelter...

MarkII
 

MarkH

---
Joined
Jan 18, 2009
Messages
1,081
Reaction score
2
Location
El Segundo
Building light weight BT 101 models with V2 cones... This thread seems kind of related to the NARAM 52 I impulse HPR contest. Pretty intriguing:

Highest altitude using any I Impuse motor and a rocket having at least a 10cm (3.937in) diameter section that is at least 30cm (11.81in) long. (to stay under the 8000 ft waiver). Best out of Two flights.
 

georgegassaway

Lifetime Supporter
TRF Lifetime Supporter
Joined
Jan 18, 2009
Messages
4,632
Reaction score
494
Last edited:

Viperfixr

Born Again Rocketeer
Joined
Jan 19, 2009
Messages
1,474
Reaction score
65
Anyone have a leftover Mountainside Hobby V-2 kit they are willing to part with??
 
Top