Battery Jump-Starter

[MrGneissGuy]

I have been using two 6volt lantern batteries in series foro launching with no trouble at all, until I tried to launch my first cluster. Now there could have been several things wrong aside from that power source just not being enough, to the cold weather reducing their effectiveness, to me simply not making my cluster wire harness correctly (or a combination of all three), but only one engine ignited and my daughter's saucer never left the launch rod. I'm thinking the main problem was battery choice.

As I'm not an electrician or electrical engineer, I've done a lot of reading trying to figure out launch controllers and power/energy supplies appropriate for launching. It appears the general opinion is that a 12 volt gel cell, motorcycle, car battery (or similar) is the best as it will give you many, many launches and can handle just about any brand of ingitors as well as clusters. Now considering that you can get 12 volts from eight AA batteries (or two lantern batteries), I'm guessing that, in addition to wanting 12 volts, the amperage is also important when trying to launch clusters? If that is correct, what amperage, in general is required for launching clusters (of say three or four) motors? If the amperage isn't a factor, I guess I don't understand the difference between using 8 AAs to get 12 volts versus using a motorcycle battery, other than longevity. And then I have to figure out why my cluster didn't work.

I saw in Meijer Stanley 350 amp battery jump-starters on sale for $25 and figured why not, I could alway use it for its intended purpose in addition to trying to make it my launch day power supply. The picture below is of the 300 amp, as apprently the 350 amp version no longer exists, or I can't find it anywhere online except in the Meijer ads. It charges by plugging it into a regular wall outlet. In addition to having the jumper clamps, it also has a USB power port, LED light, and 12 volt DC power supply, and a 12 volt DC charging adapter.

It is supposed to have 350A instananeous, 5 seconds 225A. The battery itself is a 12 volt 9aH lead acid battery. I've already done the modifications to my launch controller (very minor modifications required) to use this, and I figure I can use it by connecting my controller directly to the clamps. Another option, that I am liking more and more, is to use the 12 volt DC power supply. I have a 12 volt DC adapter for a piece of electronics that no longer works, so I simply cut off the plug and added some connectors to the ends of the wires. So I can plug it into the 12volt DC accessory outlet on the jump starter and connect my controller to those wires. But the manual says you are not to exceed a 5amp load on the outlet. Will this be a problem and should I just attach the main clamps instead of using the accessory outlet?

Man that's a long winded way of asking "will this thing work for clusters and can I use the accessory outlet or do I use the main clamps for the extra amperage?" Guess that's what happens when you're sitting up late at night watching football and waiting for the laundry to finish so you can put it in the dryer before going to bed.

 

[MarkII]

I and many others on this forum use them emergency car starter batteries to power our launch systems. I use mine for launching everything from MicroMaxx to G. There are several nice things about them. First of all they put out great amperage and they have tremendous reserve. (You can draw heavily on them.) They are also rechargeable and have the recharger built in. They are much lighter in weight and easier to carry than a regular car battery.

I don't know how yours is set up, but mine just uses a couple of clips that are to be clamped directly onto the car's battery terminals in the same manner as jumper cables; I guess this could be called an "open hood" emergency car starter. To use it as a launch pad power source, I just clip them to the battery connector clips for my launch controller. I have read about, but never seen, a "closed hood" jump starter, so I don't know what type of connections it has. If it has battery clips as the primary or stand-by connectors, I would say to use them, since they would be the easiest to hook up.

 

[Handeman]

You are correct about the amperage being important. The basic equation for voltage, current and resistanceis E = I * R. E = Voltage I = Current & R = Resistance.
When you use one igniter at 2 ohms resistance, I = E/R so current is 12/2 or 6 amps.

When using clusters and hooking the igniters up in parallel, the amount of resistance is
1/Rtotal = 1/R1 + 1/R2 + 1/Rn
If you have 3 ignitors with 2 ohm each, you will have 1/r = 3/2 or R = 2/3 ohms. When you plug that into your I = E/R now you have I = 12/ 2/3 or 18 amps.

Since the 8 AA or the two 6V dry cell batteries may be able to source enough current, 6 amps or close, to heat up one igniter enough to light the pyrogen, they probably can't source enough, 18 amps, to heat up three igniters.

The Jump Starter will work great for igniting your rockets, even the clusters, IF you use the clamps and the high current side. If you try to use the 12V 5A supply, you'll have the same problem you had with the two 6V dry cell batteries.

I have the Black and Decker 350Amp starter and use it for launching, charging USB devices, and running my LiPo battery charger. The starters work great for a lot of things.

 

[Dale Saukerson]

What ignitors and launch controller were you using for the cluster attempt ?

Yes, amps are a crucial factor in cluster ignition. The difference among the power sources isn't just longevity. It's how many amps can they dump both short term and long term. Draw too much current from a battery and the voltage will sag. The chemical makeup of the battery determines it's short and long term maximum amperage ability. Generally speaking, the physical size of the battery determines it's longevity.

Point of comparison:
A 1.5 volt alkaline cell will dump a max of about one amp short term.
A 1.2 volt NICAD cell will dump perhaps 20 amps short term.
This is due to the difference in chemical makeup, though they are the same physical size.

A car battery can dump hundreds of amps short term.

 

[MrGneissGuy]

Thank you, those are very informative answers and exactly what I was looking for. Now I just have to wait for the temps to get back in double digits and the wind chill to make it above zero so I can try it out.

 

[RandyM]

That will work just fine. I built a launcher out of one. I just opened it up and put the relay inside. I also removed the "battery jumper clips" and it draws directly for the battery to supply as much current as it can. It's never failed yet.

 

[falingtrea]

One thing to watch out for. The aux power connector may be fused so you might run the risk of blowing the fuse when trying to launch. Also, the port may be rated for 10 amps but the wiring is smaller than it needs to be for launch system applications. Hooking to the jumper cables is a much better current flow path.

 

[luke strawwalker]

I have been using two 6volt lantern batteries in series foro launching with no trouble at all, until I tried to launch my first cluster. Now there could have been several things wrong aside from that power source just not being enough, to the cold weather reducing their effectiveness, to me simply not making my cluster wire harness correctly (or a combination of all three), but only one engine ignited and my daughter's saucer never left the launch rod. I'm thinking the main problem was battery choice.

As I'm not an electrician or electrical engineer, I've done a lot of reading trying to figure out launch controllers and power/energy supplies appropriate for launching. It appears the general opinion is that a 12 volt gel cell, motorcycle, car battery (or similar) is the best as it will give you many, many launches and can handle just about any brand of ingitors as well as clusters. Now considering that you can get 12 volts from eight AA batteries (or two lantern batteries), I'm guessing that, in addition to wanting 12 volts, the amperage is also important when trying to launch clusters? If that is correct, what amperage, in general is required for launching clusters (of say three or four) motors? If the amperage isn't a factor, I guess I don't understand the difference between using 8 AAs to get 12 volts versus using a motorcycle battery, other than longevity. And then I have to figure out why my cluster didn't work.

I saw in Meijer Stanley 350 amp battery jump-starters on sale for $25 and figured why not, I could alway use it for its intended purpose in addition to trying to make it my launch day power supply. The picture below is of the 300 amp, as apprently the 350 amp version no longer exists, or I can't find it anywhere online except in the Meijer ads. It charges by plugging it into a regular wall outlet. In addition to having the jumper clamps, it also has a USB power port, LED light, and 12 volt DC power supply, and a 12 volt DC charging adapter.

It is supposed to have 350A instananeous, 5 seconds 225A. The battery itself is a 12 volt 9aH lead acid battery. I've already done the modifications to my launch controller (very minor modifications required) to use this, and I figure I can use it by connecting my controller directly to the clamps. Another option, that I am liking more and more, is to use the 12 volt DC power supply. I have a 12 volt DC adapter for a piece of electronics that no longer works, so I simply cut off the plug and added some connectors to the ends of the wires. So I can plug it into the 12volt DC accessory outlet on the jump starter and connect my controller to those wires. But the manual says you are not to exceed a 5amp load on the outlet. Will this be a problem and should I just attach the main clamps instead of using the accessory outlet?

Man that's a long winded way of asking "will this thing work for clusters and can I use the accessory outlet or do I use the main clamps for the extra amperage?" Guess that's what happens when you're sitting up late at night watching football and waiting for the laundry to finish so you can put it in the dryer before going to bed.

The main difference between using a cluster of AA batteries and a motorcycle/lawnmower/car/gel cell/jumper pack battery to get 12 volts is mainly in the CAPACITY. Yes a pack of AA's can deliver 12 volts, but not for very long! They simply can't deliver much current, and they don't have much capacity at all... It'd be like your car having a gas tank the size of a lawnmower-- you couldn't go very far on that!!! Equally, it would be silly to put a 17-23 gallon fuel tank on a lawnmower-- you simply don't need that much capacity. Make sense??

Thing is, you REALLY can't get "too much battery" with rocket launchers. I could get into all the details on the amperage draw, wattage, and all that of various ignitors and clusters of ignitors, and all that, but it's kinda beside the point. If you have a large enough battery, well charged, with large enough wiring and good connections, you can ignite darn near anything. Like a chain is no stronger than it's weakest link, it's REALLY important that you have big enough wire (I like at LEAST twin-lead lamp cord or better yet a good outdoor extension cord) and MAKE SURE you have GOOD CONNECTIONS. That means good clean clips, good solder joints or connector joints (I prefer soldering, but if you don't want to mess with it, wire nuts are almost as good-- crimp connectors I put about one step above Scotch-locks, which are about as worthless as they can be!) At any rate, if you want to light clusters, DITCH THE STUPID THIN ESTES BELL WIRE THEY USE ON THEIR CONTROLLERS. There are plenty of threads around here on modifying controllers or building your own, and in the archives...

That is a SWEET car jumper pack you got! I haven't seen one with a USB port before! That's cool! I got a jumper pack for free from my Grandmother's closet after she passed away when we were cleaning out the house, and I never realized just how handy they are... you can power LOTS of stuff off them-- and they do double duty in the car as well as serving well on the rocket launching field! Once you get one and start using it to power stuff remotely, you'll find lots of uses for it (okay, maybe I find a few more working on the farm, but you get the idea... )

Anyway, hope this helps! OL JR

 

[Verna]

Yes, the car jumper batteries are great for all the reasons already listed but I also recommend using the jumper cables to connect to your controller. Ours is at least 10 years old and going strong.

It will work very well for clusters.

Verna
www.vernarockets.com

 

[jim fustini]

https://www.amazon.com/s/?ie=UTF8&k...=aps&hvadid=4307567927&ref=pd_sl_33stht9mb0_b
Here is a link to alot of jumpstarters.

 

[Brad Willmore]

Sorry to revive an old thread, but I recently tried using a Schumacher jumpstarter and got shut down by the more modern unit's (it's 2019 after all, this thread commenced in 2010) short detection circuit. It seems that the continuity through the ignitors is enough for the unit to sense a "fault" and not deliver voltage.

Is there a way to disable this or some other workaround?

 

[Johnly]

I purchased the Lipo version for our club launches at Costco for ~$50. Smaller and lighter, but more than adequate for our needs.

 

[samb]

Sorry to revive an old thread, but I recently tried using a Schumacher jumpstarter and got shut down by the more modern unit's (it's 2019 after all, this thread commenced in 2010) short detection circuit. It seems that the continuity through the ignitors is enough for the unit to sense a "fault" and not deliver voltage.

Is there a way to disable this or some other workaround?

Can you explain your setup ? Most portable jump start boxes limit the current on the DC accessories outlet but I never heard of one that did that to the big clamps.

 

[Alan15578]

I purchased the Lipo version for our club launches at Costco for ~$50. Smaller and lighter, but more than adequate for our needs.

Interesting. But you should know that an old 12 volt car battery works just fine. That battery that your mom is going to turn in for $5 to replace the battery that would not start her car one time on a cold winter morning is perfect. Just check that none of the cells are shorted, and that it is charged up before the launch event. It will last many years, powering large club launches and cluster launches.

 

[Brad Willmore]

Can you explain your setup ? Most portable jump start boxes limit the current on the DC accessories outlet but I never heard of one that did that to the big clamps.

I am connecting my Go Box battery clamps directly to the Schumacher battery booster clamps. I'm guessing that maybe the unit senses a short and so won't deliver voltage to the clamps if it thinks you've got them connected to each other or some other goofy error?

 

[Philip Tiberius D.]

I have been using two 6volt lantern batteries in series foro launching with no trouble at all, until I tried to launch my first cluster. Now there could have been several things wrong aside from that power source just not being enough, to the cold weather reducing their effectiveness, to me simply not making my cluster wire harness correctly (or a combination of all three), but only one engine ignited and my daughter's saucer never left the launch rod. I'm thinking the main problem was battery choice.

“So what did you need to do to modify this battery pack??? I’ve found a few similar to it at a reasonable price, I launch on 18 acres on my own and this beats the heck having to clip in/unclip my battery, lock the hood, etc.

As I'm not an electrician or electrical engineer, I've done a lot of reading trying to figure out launch controllers and power/energy supplies appropriate for launching. It appears the general opinion is that a 12 volt gel cell, motorcycle, car battery (or similar) is the best as it will give you many, many launches and can handle just about any brand of ingitors as well as clusters. Now considering that you can get 12 volts from eight AA batteries (or two lantern batteries), I'm guessing that, in addition to wanting 12 volts, the amperage is also important when trying to launch clusters? If that is correct, what amperage, in general is required for launching clusters (of say three or four) motors? If the amperage isn't a factor, I guess I don't understand the difference between using 8 AAs to get 12 volts versus using a motorcycle battery, other than longevity. And then I have to figure out why my cluster didn't work.

I saw in Meijer Stanley 350 amp battery jump-starters on sale for $25 and figured why not, I could alway use it for its intended purpose in addition to trying to make it my launch day power supply. The picture below is of the 300 amp, as apprently the 350 amp version no longer exists, or I can't find it anywhere online except in the Meijer ads. It charges by plugging it into a regular wall outlet. In addition to having the jumper clamps, it also has a USB power port, LED light, and 12 volt DC power supply, and a 12 volt DC charging adapter.

It is supposed to have 350A instananeous, 5 seconds 225A. The battery itself is a 12 volt 9aH lead acid battery. I've already done the modifications to my launch controller (very minor modifications required) to use this, and I figure I can use it by connecting my controller directly to the clamps. Another option, that I am liking more and more, is to use the 12 volt DC power supply. I have a 12 volt DC adapter for a piece of electronics that no longer works, so I simply cut off the plug and added some connectors to the ends of the wires. So I can plug it into the 12volt DC accessory outlet on the jump starter and connect my controller to those wires. But the manual says you are not to exceed a 5amp load on the outlet. Will this be a problem and should I just attach the main clamps instead of using the accessory outlet?

Man that's a long winded way of asking "will this thing work for clusters and can I use the accessory outlet or do I use the main clamps for the extra amperage?" Guess that's what happens when you're sitting up late at night watching football and waiting for the laundry to finish so you can put it in the dryer before going to bed.

View attachment 36057

 

[samb]

I am connecting my Go Box battery clamps directly to the Schumacher battery booster clamps. I'm guessing that maybe the unit senses a short and so won't deliver voltage to the clamps if it thinks you've got them connected to each other or some other goofy error?

Not sure what's going on with your jump box Brad. I found some product manuals here: https://www.batterychargers.com/en/products/jump-starters that talk about an energy saving mode. Maybe that's what's biting you, IDK.

ENERGY SAVING MODE


If the unit is not used after the ON/OFF power switch is turned on, the unit will go into Energy Saving mode after 30 seconds, to prevent battery discharge. Follow these steps to use any function after Energy Saving mode:

1. 
   
2. Press the ON/OFF power switch to turn the unit ON.
   
3. The Green Ready/Fail LED will light.
   
4. After 30 seconds, The USB port and Battery Status/Light function will turn off.
   
5. After 2 minutes, The Green Ready/Fail LED will turn off.
   
6. Press the Battery Status/Light button once. The unit is now ready for checking the battery status and using the jump starter, USB and work light.

 

[BABAR]

I use the Pratt Go Box with this

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00RZXVQSU/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1

Stanley Fat Max 350. I use the cigarette light adapter in the plug (works great and I feel safer not messing with the clamps.). Works great

 

[RocketRev]

Hello Everybody else on this thread and "Luke Strawwalker" as well.....

I completely agree with those who say to stick with the jumper cables. The 12v power supply at 5 amps might work, but would more than likely fail about as often as it works. Use it for a charging port for other stuff/not igniting rocket motors. It just doesn't put enough amps thru to the igniter to be reliable.

The vast majority of the info on this thread has been excellent. I too have been using Jumper-Packs for literally decades, for powering my Wilson F/X launch systems. (Yes, you all knew that I'd have to bring that up eventually, so I did it early to get it out of the way). Now-a-days, I mostly just use SLA batteries that are inside the Jumper-packs. We mount them in small ammo-boxes for convenience of carrying. My first jumper-pack was a Black and Decker back in 1992 it worked great for over a decade. I bought several more in the middle 90's for powering WFX test stands as well as using them for my club's WFX system. They are convenient, these days have built in chargers, and as several people have said they have multiple uses. I've used one after a full weekend of rocket launching to start a guys car who left his lights on.

Luke Strawwalker had a lot of good things to say about the various methods for connecting wiring in a system. And his analogy about driving a car with a lawnmower gas tank is excellent and I plan to use that one in the future myself. But I must disagree with him about his blanket excoriation of all "crimp connectors" that in his words, "I put about one step above Scotch-locks, which are about as worthless as they can be!" A typical WFX PBU-8, an 8-pad pad-box, has 35 crimped connections inside the case, at least four more outside the case for power connections and another 24 crimp connections on the igniter leads. That's over 60 crimp-on connections. And though a very rare igniter lead gets past me without working, the rest of the crimp connections have a history of working well for over 17 years in the first WFX LCU-64 system which is still operating.

I very regularly use crimp on Molex connectors in pad-boxes and controllers. I also use two Anderson Power Pole "housing" styles PP15/30/45 and SB-50 crimp on connectors. And these are two of the largest industry standard connectors on the market. And they are all crimp on connectors.

I've attached a pic of the five crimp-on tools that I use constantly and the one that I use to only prop up NEMA enclosure lids while I'm soldering switches in place. Its the GB Electrical INC., crimper at the top of the picture. I wouldn't use it for crimping, cutting, or stripping anything. I used to, back prior to WFX, but never again. Its a cheep almost worthless tool. About the only thing I still ever use it for is for the screw size gauge when I'm too tired to walk across my shop to pick up my dial calipers to measure some unknown screw size.

But the other crimpers get used all the time. Directly below the GB on the left is my Molex crimper used for continuity switches, ignition switches, buzzers, LED's, etcettera. To its right is the blue handled Channel-Lock crimpers that I use for all my insulated #16 AWG wire crimps inside my enclosures and for connecting the zip-cord to my orange-igniter lead cords. The similarly shaped Klein crimpers beneath them with the excellently shaped round crimper cavities in two sizes, are what I use for crimping on all my alligator clips to the other end of the #16 AWG zip-cord. (large for high power alligator clips and small for #18 AWG model rocket clips) If you look closely at the cutting blade on the front of the Kliens, you will notice that it is modified. I very carefully ground off the back end of the cutting blades in order to do crimps on the 90 degree #16 AWG 1/4" female blade connectors that I used to use way back when we were using very large relays and a double stack of circuit boards in the PBU-8. There was not enough room for a standard female blade connector. It would only work with the 90 degree female blade connectors. I took a look at the official 90 degree crimper for it back in about 1999 when we were creating our first PBU-8 units and I balked at the $50 price tag for the very special crimper that was available at the time. I said to myself, I can make one for myself at less than half the cost. The Klien was around $25 at the time and sure enough, it modified just fine and works great. I no longer use it for the 90 degree female connectors, but only because they've been made obsolete by later improvements in WFX technology. Below them are the two Anderson Power Pole crimp-on tools for the PP-15/30/45 and the SB-50 connector housings that we use. These are all COMMERCIAL GRADE industry standard, crimp on connection tools. They must be used correctly or you end up with shoddy workmanship. But that can be said of the best tools the world has ever seen.

Well, there you have it, my take on crimp on connectors. They work just fine short term and long term if they are done right using quality crimped on parts and tools. If you use cheap knock-offs, I can guarantee that your results are going to vary. You can only get as good of results as the tools, parts, and the hands on the tools can make them. Obviously I have no idea what Luke Strawwalker was using for tools or connector parts when he came to his conclusions about crimp on connections, but I definitely disagree with him on this one. As with many things in life, "Experiences vary!"

Crimp on Brothers and Sisters!

Brad, the "Rocket Rev.," Wilson

 

[Big-Bob]

I use a 12V motorcycle battery made for a H-D Sportster 1200. I made a bracket that holds it in a metal tool box that also holds my launch controller, cable, and a battery maintainer. Batteries have to be kept charged or they won't last very long. I keep the maintainer connected to the battery all the time when I'm not using it. It puts out plenty of amps (use whatever size cable you need) and has no sensors or anything like that.

 

[kuririn]

Since I carry it in my trunk for emergencies anyway, I use a DieHard portable battery jump starter for launches.
Plenty of amps, easier to lug than an automobile battery.
A couple of days before a launch I check the charge and top off/recharge via wall outlet if needed.
However, addressing the OP's nine year old dilemma: power source is only half the answer.
You also need an igniter optimized for cluster launches.
Quest Q2G2s are best, but they are long OOP. My stash is running out.
There are low amp firing e-matches (check the motor nozzle size) and pyrogen dips to make your own or enhance current igniters.
Current Estes igni…, er, starters need to contact the propellant to reliably ignite the motor. Pyrogen dipped igniters only need to be in proximity.
Re: crimped vs soldered connectors: There is a relatively new (I think) connector that incorporates heat shrink tubing, heat activated adhesive, and low temperature solder. Strip the ends of the two wires to be connected, braid together, slip the connector over and use a heat gun to melt the solder, activate the adhesive and shrink the tubing. Very strong connection, no soldering iron or skills needed. Duck soup, I mean easy peasy.
Sayos.

 

[CKaul04]

Those DieHard power packs are awesome. Glad I grabbed one at Menards on Black Friday 2 years ago.

Since I carry it in my trunk for emergencies anyway, I use a DieHard portable battery jump starter for launches.
Plenty of amps, easier to lug than an automobile battery.
A couple of days before a launch I check the charge and top off/recharge via wall outlet if needed.
However, addressing the OP's nine year old dilemma: power source is only half the answer.
You also need an igniter optimized for cluster launches.
Quest Q2G2s are best, but they are long OOP. My stash is running out.
There are low amp firing e-matches (check the motor nozzle size) and pyrogen dips to make your own or enhance current igniters.
Current Estes igni…, er, starters need to contact the propellant to reliably ignite the motor. Pyrogen dipped igniters only need to be in proximity.
Re: crimped vs soldered connectors: There is a relatively new (I think) connector that incorporates heat shrink tubing, heat activated adhesive, and low temperature solder. Strip the ends of the two wires to be connected, braid together, slip the connector over and use a heat gun to melt the solder, activate the adhesive and shrink the tubing. Very strong connection, no soldering iron or skills needed. Duck soup, I mean easy peasy.
Sayos.
View attachment 408627

 

[duggyhow]

Sorry to revive an old thread, but I recently tried using a Schumacher jumpstarter and got shut down by the more modern unit's (it's 2019 after all, this thread commenced in 2010) short detection circuit. It seems that the continuity through the ignitors is enough for the unit to sense a "fault" and not deliver voltage.

Is there a way to disable this or some other workaround?

Hey Brad, did you ever find a work around for the jump starter? I’m getting the same thing from my Schumacher jump starter. Thanks for any help.