Basic reliable cluster ignition for 2 Estes D's

The Rocketry Forum

Help Support The Rocketry Forum:

This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links, including eBay, Amazon, and others.

Dotini

Well-Known Member
TRF Supporter
Joined
Mar 1, 2021
Messages
1,750
Reaction score
1,288
Location
Seattle, Washington
I'm building a model with two Estes D's in a cluster. Down the road I may want to go with three, but probably not go any further into clusters. Will my entry-level Estes controller with AA lithium cells and standard Esters igniters provide reliable ignition for these clusters? If not, what is the most reasonable yet reliable commercially available equipment currently available?
 
I'm building a model with two Estes D's in a cluster. Down the road I may want to go with three, but probably not go any further into clusters. Will my entry-level Estes controller with AA lithium cells and standard Esters igniters provide reliable ignition for these clusters? If not, what is the most reasonable yet reliable commercially available equipment currently available?

I wouldn't use the AA controller, they're barely enough to light one motor. The ProSeries II controller would work great, though. It even has a two-motor clip-whip built in. It has an internal red JST plug for using a NiMH or LiPo battery with it; I use a 3S LiPo in mine. 6 D-cells would work fine, though.

https://estesrockets.com/product/002240-pro-series-ii-launch-controller/
 
Agree on the PSII controller. But Brian misspoke - it takes C cells.

Like Brian I use a small 3s LiPoly in the one I use regularly, but the stock setup, with good alkaline C cells (think Duracell) will work just fine.

For some extra reliability, I would also recommend the Estes Startech starters, old Solar igniters (with the black tips), or dipping the Solar starters (yellowish tip) in ProCast or something. But if you're confident in your placement of the igniters/starters (and in a D12 it's pretty easy to get them all the way in where they need to be) then they will be fine with that controller.
 
I'm building a model with two Estes D's in a cluster. Down the road I may want to go with three, but probably not go any further into clusters. Will my entry-level Estes controller with AA lithium cells and standard Esters igniters provide reliable ignition for these clusters? If not, what is the most reasonable yet reliable commercially available equipment currently available?
This is the launch controller I use, it works great.
http://pratt-hobbies.com/proddetail.asp?prod=GO-12
These BP igniters I’ve heard work really well, especially for clusters.
https://electricmatch.com/rocketry/see/23/6/bp-rocket-starters
 
I have done a lot of D clusters of 2 and 3 motors. Use parallel wiring to the motors. I just twist the leads together making sure there are no shorts between + and -. I've used our club's 12 v systems successfully and the old Estes ignitors.
 
Like Brian I use a small 3s LiPoly in the one I use regularly, but the stock setup, with good alkaline C cells (think Duracell) will work just fine.

I use a PSII controller with Duracells for 2x motor clusters pretty much every time we fly. Any ignition issues are mine, not the controller's.
 
I now use E-matches in D12's held in place by Scotch Adhesive Putty (poster putty). The prep is fast and ignition has been 100% up to 6 motor clusters. The long lead wires make parallel wiring easy, but I have been told that wiring in series with E-matches will work.
 
Last edited:
I now use E-matches in D12's held in place by Scotch Adhesive Putty (poster putty). The prep is fast and ignition has been 100% up to 6 motor clusters. The long lead wires make parallel wiring easy, but I have been told that wiring in series with E-matches will work.
Thank you for the putty advice! I have been using the MJG blackpowder ematch starters; although they burst reliably, I've had a hard time keeping them fixed in the shallow ignition dimple of those endgrain motors.

In two flights of a 7 x 18mm cluster, I've had 13 motors light, but all 14 ematches burn. The one motor that didn't light was the one that had the most tension on its wires on the first flight, and the ematches having only been held in with blue tape, I surmise it had fallen out of the nozzle by the time I pressed play on the controller.

On the next flight I spent an inordinate time trying to hold the ematches steady with just the right amount of balled-up recovery wadding to tamp them in place, followed by an overdose of blue tape. Yet even the smallest jiggle of the wires forced me to retamp ematches and add more tape. And more tape, and more tape. In the end, the flight was a success, but your method sound much better.

As a starting point for my experiements, how much putty do you use for each ematch, and how do you go about applying it?

Even if I hold the ematches in, I still have some way to go in understanding how to fire my seven motors reliably, since my relay controller (powered by a lead-acid Odyssey powersports battery out of a project car) seems to work sometimes and not others with the launch controllers I have (basic Estes and Estes E) and wouldn't work at all with the controller at a club launch last weekend (we eventually got the rocket off the pad by eschewing the relay controller and using long jumper cables with a giant LiPo a friend supplied).

Yet the relay controller worked fine both in earlier pre-launch testing and in the first test launch, and it also worked fine in later testing. Then in still later testing did not. Then it did again. When I realized how much money I was burning testing seven to ten ematches at a time without a consistent result, I realized I should be testing with my multimeter instead. Which I've been looking for (and for my backup too!) all week. 🤣

Something else I need the multimeter to diagnose: my basic Estes launch controller can check continuity of the MJG blackpoweder starter without firing it, but the E controller needs several ematches at a time before it doesn't fire them with a continuity check. Maybe my E controller is faulty?

Well, I might be able to tell soon, because I remembered that my good multimeter is in the glove box of a project car parked on a friend's farm 50 km from my house. Maybe I'll have a chance to drive out and get it this weekend. Or buy another. (That car is actually where the battery I use for the relay launcher is from, oddly enough.)

The strangest problems in my life seem always to be electrical . . .
 
I use a small amount of putty, about the same amount as if I was going to tamp the e-match with tissue paper and I use a ball-point pen or similar object to push the putty in. I am using an e-match with D12 motors, perhaps different igniters in smaller motors will work, too. If the amount of putty is too small, just put in a little bit more. The prepping is so much easier and faster. I use the same e-matches and putty for prepping PML ejection holders for ejection charges.
 
I use aluminum foil tape to hold MJG igniters/e-matches into black powder and composite motors whenever I do clusters. Hasn't failed me yet!
 
Ready to use 1ft Starters for your Estes or any black powder model rocket motors. Requires 1 per launch to ignite your Estes engine. Requires 1 volt or more to fire. In regards to clusters, these can be fired in series or parallel. The Estes E launch controller works great, as do our Alpha system. Standard are 3mm in diameter. They are great for replacing the match that comes with the smaller estes motors.



We have confirmed they will fit in:

  • 1/2A3-4T
  • B6-2
  • C6-0
  • C6-5
if you can help us update this file for other customers, please email [email protected] with your model numbers.
Has anyone verified that they'll fit in motors other than the ones listed here?
 
Something else I need the multimeter to diagnose: my basic Estes launch controller can check continuity of the MJG blackpoweder starter without firing it, but the E controller needs several ematches at a time before it doesn't fire them with a continuity check. Maybe my E controller is faulty?
The E controller isn't necessarily faulty as such, but the resistance of the MJGs seems to be in the 1.5 Ohm range vs. 0.8 Ohm for an Estes igniter (several of each checked, but not an exhaustive study). Whatever controller you use, I'd recommend testing in advance to see if continuity can safely be checked.
But will they fit in a D-12-5 nozzle?
Has anyone verified that they'll fit in motors other than the ones listed here?
I have not tried lighting anything but A8 and C6 motors with them so far, but I have test-fit them to 24mm D12-7 & E12-6 motors and the 13mm A10-PT, and they seem to fit all of them fine.
 
As far as Estes motors go, several motor families share the same nozzle, and you can tell by the colored plugs that are packaged with them. Orange for the 1/4A3, 1/2A3, and A3, Green for the A10, Yellow for the 1/2A6, A8, and B4, etc.

If you can get these E-matches in a C6 motor, you’ll get them in any 18mm Estes motor, since that’s the narrowest nozzle in that motor diameter. You may have trouble getting the Q-Jets or other composites to accept it but with Estes BP in that size, you’re pretty much golden.
 
Last edited:
I now use E-matches in D12's held in place by Scotch Adhesive Putty (poster putty). The prep is fast and ignition has been 100% up to 6 motor clusters. The long lead wires make parallel wiring easy, but I have been told that wiring in series with E-matches will work.
I use a small amount of putty, about the same amount as if I was going to tamp the e-match with tissue paper and I use a ball-point pen or similar object to push the putty in. I am using an e-match with D12 motors, perhaps different igniters in smaller motors will work, too. If the amount of putty is too small, just put in a little bit more. The prepping is so much easier and faster. I use the same e-matches and putty for prepping PML ejection holders for ejection charges.
Thanks again for the putty tip. Finally had a chance to try it on two 7-motor C6-7 flights this weekend. All 14 motors lighted perfectly, and the putty makes manipulating a bundle of 7 igniters a million times easier than blue tape.
 
These igniters specifically say BP only. One person, above, has hinted at using them in a composite motor. Can anyone confirm success? And thanks for the putty tip. I will try that!
They will not light a composite motor on their own. You'll need to dip them in some sort of extra pyrogen.
 
I use a small amount of putty, about the same amount as if I was going to tamp the e-match with tissue paper and I use a ball-point pen or similar object to push the putty in. I am using an e-match with D12 motors, perhaps different igniters in smaller motors will work, too. If the amount of putty is too small, just put in a little bit more. The prepping is so much easier and faster. I use the same e-matches and putty for prepping PML ejection holders for ejection charges.
You don't happen to have any pics, or video of this process do you?
 
You don't happen to have any pics, or video of this process do you?
I'm not @aerostadt (though I learned this trick from him), and I also don't have video, but I can say it's not hard. Give it a try, and you'll figure out more or less instantly how much putty you'll need for whatever technique comes naturally to you.

I used to push the putty in behind the starters when I was prepping. Lately I've been using a putty blob a little smaller than a skittle, pushing the MJG BP starter through the blob, then seating the starter once I'm at the pad, and sliding the putty blob up the wire and into the nozzle whilst holding the starter in place. This allows me to leave the starters out of the motors without sacrificing much time at the pad. That's generally good for peace of mind, but it's a requirement for some of my larger black powder clusters which are HPR simply due to propellant mass.
 
You don't happen to have any pics, or video of this process do you?
I have a few pictures of a six D12 cluster used on the Altaira N-1 model rocket.
 

Attachments

  • 002.JPG
    002.JPG
    1.3 MB · Views: 0
  • 003.JPG
    003.JPG
    1.1 MB · Views: 0
  • Bob N-1.jpg
    Bob N-1.jpg
    170.1 KB · Views: 0
  • N-1 on pad.jpg
    N-1 on pad.jpg
    354.1 KB · Views: 0
  • lift off.jpg
    lift off.jpg
    125.1 KB · Views: 0
Last edited:
I'm not @aerostadt (though I learned this trick from him), and I also don't have video, but I can say it's not hard. Give it a try, and you'll figure out more or less instantly how much putty you'll need for whatever technique comes naturally to you.

I used to push the putty in behind the starters when I was prepping. Lately I've been using a putty blob a little smaller than a skittle, pushing the MJG BP starter through the blob, then seating the starter once I'm at the pad, and sliding the putty blob up the wire and into the nozzle whilst holding the starter in place. This allows me to leave the starters out of the motors without sacrificing much time at the pad. That's generally good for peace of mind, but it's a requirement for some of my larger black powder clusters which are HPR simply due to propellant mass.
Good explanation, thanks.
 
Back
Top