Balloon launched rocket.

[Senior Space Cadet]

I'm sure I'm not the first person to think of this, and I'm sure Newton has something to say about it, but suppose you used a weather balloon to take your rocket to some ridiculous altitude and launched it from there.

 

[les]

Search for Rockoon. But you'll never get FAA approval to do it. And there are a ton technical issues as well....

 

[Antares JS]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rockoon

 

[Zeus-cat]

Every few months someone brings up this topic. I think we were overdue.

 

[Funkworks]

I'm just here to see what Newton has to say about it.

 

[jsdemar]

"Balloons are for birthday parties."

 

[jderimig]

View attachment 424646
"Balloons are for birthday parties."

It will go over like a Lead Zeppelin.

 

[jsdemar]

It will go over like a Lead Zeppelin.

If there's a bustle in your hedgerow, don't be alarmed, now....

(I gave a presentation on Rocketry to an auditorium full of students/teachers/parents during one of the XPrize Cups. I used that picture of Newton and asked if anyone knew who that was? Silence. So I said "no, it's not Robert Plant!". There was an age-selective chuckle from the crowd. )

 

[boatgeek]

View attachment 424647
It will go over like a Lead Zeppelin.

I don't think this is a real post. Probably a Plant.

For the OP:
Rock On: Good. Rockoon: Bad (there are several other threads describing exactly why it's a bad idea. Searching TRF for "Rockoon" will find them.

 

[boatgeek]

Search for Rockoon. But you'll never get FAA approval to do it. And there are a ton technical issues as well....

OK, indulge me in some loopholery here. Let's say that we can wave our magic wand and make all of the technical issues of rockoons go away, so that we only have regulatory ones left. If you flew balloon to 100K feet and then launched a FAR 101 rocket (<1500g, <125g propellant), would you need FAA approval at all?

 

[cerving]

Notice the resemblence... coincidence?

 

[jsdemar]

Notice the resemblence... coincidence?

It's a small island. Ancestry of Newtons and Plants are around the middle area of England, 20-30 miles apart. They're all related in some way, especially to the Roman invaders!

 

[MALBAR 70]

Fig Newtons grow on Plants? Who knew?

 

[Zeus-cat]

Fig Newtons grow on Plants? Who knew?

Oh please! Figs grow on plants and Newtons come out the back end of rockets. Duh!

 

[jsdemar]

Oh please! Figs grow on plants and Newtons come out the back end of rockets. Duh!

Fig Newtons are produced in a Nabisco Plant.
Mass comes out the back of a rocket, and it's flow rate * velocity produces Newtons. A thrust Plant, in engineering terms.

(Boys and Girls, you are witnessing advanced thread derailment at it's best!)

 

[MALBAR 70]

Wow, I didn't think this was going to Balloon the way it did...

 

[Zeus-cat]

Wow, I didn't think this was going to Balloon the way it did...

jsdemar is trying to deflate it.

 

[Steve Shannon]

I'm sure I'm not the first person to think of this, and I'm sure Newton has something to say about it, but suppose you used a weather balloon to take your rocket to some ridiculous altitude and launched it from there.

It would start out higher. It would end up higher. The end.

But why ridicule altitudes? Have you no empathy? Altitudes have feelings too.

 

[MALBAR 70]

It would start out higher. It would end up higher. The end.

But why ridicule altitudes? Have you no empathy? Altitudes have feelings too.

I always have a bad altitude when it comes to heights....

 

[jqavins]

OK, indulge me in some loopholery here. Let's say that we can wave our magic wand and make all of the technical issues of rockoons go away, so that we only have regulatory ones left. If you flew balloon to 100K feet and then launched a FAR 101 rocket (<1500g, <125g propellant), would you need FAA approval at all?

Why so high? Why not take the balloons up to, say, 10,000 feet and use a rocket that will stay within the waiver. Then haven't you already got all the FAA approval you need?

View attachment 424646
"Balloons are for birthday parties."

Literally LOL.

Oh please! Figs grow on plants and Newtons come out the back end of rockets. Duh!

So, use the gooey insides of figs as the fuel grain in a hybrid, and that makes fig newtons.

 

[Steve Shannon]

Why so high? Why not take the balloons up to, say, 10,000 feet and use a rocket that will stay within the waiver. Then haven't you already got all the FAA approval you need?

Literally LOL.

You must comply with FAR 101, both subpart C (unmanned rockets) as well as subpart D (unmanned balloons).
If you tether the balloon, you also must comply with subpart A (moored) balloons.

Also, I doubt the OP was thinking of 10,000 feet when he said “ridiculous altitude.”

 

[Steve Shannon]

OK, indulge me in some loopholery here. Let's say that we can wave our magic wand and make all of the technical issues of rockoons go away, so that we only have regulatory ones left. If you flew balloon to 100K feet and then launched a FAR 101 rocket (<1500g, <125g propellant), would you need FAA approval at all?

Yes, FAR 101.33. (unmanned balloons).
Also, all unmanned rockets are FAR 101. I think you meant FAR 101, Class 1. Not trying to be a jerk.

 

[boatgeek]

Yes, FAR 101.33. (unmanned balloons).
Also, all unmanned rockets are FAR 101. I think you meant FAR 101, Class 1. Not trying to be a jerk.

Definitely don't think you're being a jerk. I'm obviously on the ragged edge of what's legal here, so I deserve what I get. I'd just seen FAR 101 as shorthand for Class 1. I don't see anything specific in 101.33, but the general "Don't break anyone else's stuff or hurt anyone" clause probably comes into effect. Especially since I handwaved away all of the technical issues that keep you from doing that.

Why so high? Why not take the balloons up to, say, 10,000 feet and use a rocket that will stay within the waiver. Then haven't you already got all the FAA approval you need?

The idea of using a FAR 101 Class 1 rocket was that you wouldn't actually need a waiver. It was silly and didn't add to the discussion.

 

[Steve Shannon]

Definitely don't think you're being a jerk. I'm obviously on the ragged edge of what's legal here, so I deserve what I get. I'd just seen FAR 101 as shorthand for Class 1. I don't see anything specific in 101.33, but the general "Don't break anyone else's stuff or hurt anyone" clause probably comes into effect. Especially since I handwaved away all of the technical issues that keep you from doing that.



The idea of using a FAR 101 Class 1 rocket was that you wouldn't actually need a waiver. It was silly and didn't add to the discussion.

Not a worthless idea. If I were to do a rockoon, that’s exactly where I would start, with a balloon that was not restricted under FAR 101.33 (I’m not knowledgeable enough to say exactly what that means; I saw a bunch of interesting conditions) and a Class 1 rocket. I’d use that combination to work out the technical issues.

 

[neil_w]

I have a dumb rockoon question. If you're hanging underneath the balloon, how do you launch the rocket vertically without going straight through the balloon?

 

[boatgeek]

I have a dumb rockoon question. If you're hanging underneath the balloon, how do you launch the rocket vertically without going straight through the balloon?

But one of the many technical issues. The most common semi-serious proposal is to have three balloons with the rocket flying through the gap in the middle. Another option is a toroidal balloon but that seems harder. One of the university proposals for an orbital (?) system had the rocket launching at a 45-degree angle below the balloon.

 

[Cape Byron]

I have a dumb rockoon question. If you're hanging underneath the balloon, how do you launch the rocket vertically without going straight through the balloon?

You don't! Fill the balloon basket with sweets and when the rocket launches you achieve the high altitude pinata record.

 

[jderimig]

I have a dumb rockoon question. If you're hanging underneath the balloon, how do you launch the rocket vertically without going straight through the balloon?

Simple. You launch the rocket towards earth. The use the active guidance system to loop the rocket vertical away from the balloon. This solves a myriad of problems.

 

[Steve Shannon]

Simple. You launch the rocket towards earth. The use the active guidance system to loop the rocket vertical away from the balloon. This solves a myriad of problems.

But consumes a ton of impulse. Perhaps launching the rocket towards the balloon and letting it pass through would use less.

 

[Funkworks]

... If you're hanging underneath the balloon, how do you launch the rocket vertically without going straight through the balloon?

According to this video I just found, anyone who succeeds in touching a typical low-cost, high-altitude balloon with a legal unguided rocket, deserves a decent prize. It's quite windy up there and the wind likely affects a balloon and a rocket quite differently, so the longer the cord, the lower the probability of collision.



Video details at NOAA weather balloons.