Bail Out Bill and the Horizontal Spin Recovery Rocket

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BABAR

Builds Rockets for NASA
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Haven't tried posting anything since the forum format switch, so please 'scuse the errors, I guess I'll figure it out.

This is an update of an apparently rarely used recovery method, horizontal spin recovery.

The rocket tail is a ring fin with windows placed asymmetrically, 3 fins, 3 windows, but the windows are closer to left side of the fin margin. Turn the rocket on it's side and think of it as a "water wheel."

At apogee, rocket COMPLETELY ejects nose cone and a toy parachutist with a parachute. By COMPLETELY I mean these are no longer attached to the rocket and recovery independently. This part is "Bail Out Bill!"

Relieved of the nose weight, the CG moves backward toward the tail. Rocket starts to tumble. The asymmetric windows impart a spin around the long axis of the rocket.

Physics majors correct me if I am wrong. I believe gyroscopic precession "forces" the rocket to orient perpendicular to the axis of fall (thus horizontal to the earth.) Positions the falling body for maximum drag (basically the exact opposite of ballistic recovery.) The rotation also causes a Magnus Effect which creates lift. Either or both of these factors slow the falling rocket body.

So why a ring fin?

Here is an Apogee article by Tim Van Milligan on recovery techniques that mentions horizontal spin.

https://www.apogeerockets.com/education/downloads/Newsletter447.pdf

I will try to put the pic in a separate post, system is given me fits.

BailOutBillBack.jpg BailOutBillGround.jpg BailOutBillTail.jpg BailOutBillBack.jpg



BailOutBillFlash.jpg BailOutBillPad.jpg BailOutBillFigure.jpg
 
Okay, here's the pic (found out that if I edit with Corel, saves it as a file TRF doesn't recognize, unless I specify JPEG.)

I tried this design about a decade ago. If you look at the pic, and then think about what is happening as it falls, you can envision the problem. The rocket rotates around it's axis. Fast..... reeeeeeeaaaaallllyyyy fast. When that spinning object hits the ground, it breaks off the fins.

The way I found around this was using a ring fin. There is no "edge" to catch the ground.

Anyway, I think its kinda cool. Disadvantage is that you have to track two parts. I tried a design also a long time ago where it came down as a single part, but the ejection blast was too strong. May work on it again sometime.
 

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My triceptor trident styled rocket did this naturally once when the cti ejection failed, perfectly flat and spinning, no damage. Got it on video.
 


Haven't tried posting anything since the forum format switch, so please 'scuse the errors, I guess I'll figure it out.

This is an update of an apparently rarely used recovery method, horizontal spin recovery.

The rocket tail is a ring fin with windows placed asymmetrically, 3 fins, 3 windows, but the windows are closer to left side of the fin margin. Turn the rocket on it's side and think of it as a "water wheel."

At apogee, rocket COMPLETELY ejects nose cone and a toy parachutist with a parachute. By COMPLETELY I mean these are no longer attached to the rocket and recovery independently. This part is "Bail Out Bill!"

Relieved of the nose weight, the CG moves backward toward the tail. Rocket starts to tumble. The asymmetric windows impart a spin around the long axis of the rocket.

Physics majors correct me if I am wrong. I believe gyroscopic precession "forces" the rocket to orient perpendicular to the axis of fall (thus horizontal to the earth.) Positions the falling body for maximum drag (basically the exact opposite of ballistic recovery.) The rotation also causes a Magnus Effect which creates lift. Either or both of these factors slow the falling rocket body.

So why a ring fin?

Here is an Apogee article by Tim Van Milligan on recovery techniques that mentions horizontal spin.

https://www.apogeerockets.com/education/downloads/Newsletter447.pdf

I will try to put the pic in a separate post, system is given me fits.

View attachment 358331 View attachment 358330 View attachment 358329 View attachment 358328




View attachment 358325 View attachment 358326 View attachment 358327

I would very much like to build and fly a model which uses the same principle of generating spin as your model does. Am I correct in assuming that the Estes Quinstar and Blender utilize the very same principle? Are there other model rockets and/or full scale rockets using this same principle? Does the principle have a name? Would it work as well in square or box shape ring as well as a the circular ring? When your model is in horizontal recovery mode, does it fly tail first?

Sorry for this forest of questions, but I'd like to learn as much as possible before making parts.
 
Am I correct in assuming that the Estes Quinstar and Blender utilize the very same principle?
No, saucers like the Quinstar and Blender (or other spin-stabilized rockets) are designed so the spin axis is vertical, parallel to the airflow. This rocket is intended to spin perpendicular to the airflow, I.e. horizontal, parallel to the ground.

Sort of like the difference between a fan and a blower.
 
No, saucers like the Quinstar and Blender (or other spin-stabilized rockets) are designed so the spin axis is vertical, parallel to the airflow. This rocket is intended to spin perpendicular to the airflow, I.e. horizontal, parallel to the ground.

Sort of like the difference between a fan and a blower.
In carefully examining my Blender, I see 5 fins set orthogonally atop 5 supporting fins. But they are at an extreme offset. I assume this offset is what generates the spin, but as always, I could be wrong.
 
You know, I typed quickly without thinking too much... I'm not familiar with the particulars of how the Blender is designed or how it behaves. I take back what I said about the Blender, although my comments on the Quinstar stand.

So, Blender flyers... what does it actually do on the way up and down?
 
good article here on many of the different types of Rocket recovery. I’m kind of glad I rediscovered this as I really want to try building a backslider.

https://www.apogeerockets.com/education/downloads/Newsletter447.pdf
if you Google “horizontal spin model recovery you will not come up with very much.
https://marsclub.org/mars-challenge/mentions it but nothing about a working model.
also, as I understand Magnus Effect, it requires not only a SPINNING CYLINDER but also a flowing air Or fluid runnning along a vector perpendicular to the spin axis. So baseball players throwing curve balls and old time cannons with spinning balls and Tennis Players do indeed encounter the Magnus effect, but it shifts the trajectory perpendicular to the current vector. Since in a falling rocket that vector is DOWN, the Magnus effect moves the rocket LATERALLY to its downward trajectory, but provides NO UPWARD LIFT to slow the rocket. The next question is, “So why do you want to do it?” The answer is that while the Magnus Force Doesn’t slow the rocket, the physics of acceleration of a spinning body force it to fall horizontal, presenting an axis 90 degrees from ballistic. So you get the full lateral face of the rocket, fins and all, creating drag.

In fact even in the Apogee article above there is a minimal discussion of it with one picture.
design

I can also tell you based on looking at that picture (figure 13) and building my first horizontal recovery spin rocket that that will only work for one flight. There is a reason for this. The horizontal spin that is imported makes the Rocket fall in a horizontal organization orientation but it is rapidly spinning. If you have fins that are like that, as soon as they hit the ground spinning they will break off at least one if not all of the fins. I learned this with the first one that I built. Tried to figure out how to avoid the impact problem and came up with the idea of using a ring fan. Then kind of thought about it for a while and came up with the water wheel concept where the windows are placed near the fin struts all either clockwise or counterclockwise.

To my (admittedly limited) knowledge mine are the only working models that have use this concept. I am sure there are some more experienced guys and gals out there to correct me and I would really LIKE to see some other models.

this technique is most definitely NOT that of the Quinstar or Blurzz or Blenderzz or whatever else you‘ve probably seen. Those are basically (I think) spinning saucers.

biggest downsides of the Horizontal Spin models that I make

1. So far they are all two pieces, with a nose cone dropping separately either by chute or by streamer. This can be consider a downside because you have to track two parts, or making lemonade an UpSide “Hey, I have a Parachute Man!” or “Hey, let’s see who can get the nose cone streamer closest to the pad!”

2. The spinning piece comes in a bit hot, definitely NOT BALLISTIC and critically NOT POINTY END DOWN. I would say the drag component is likely equal to or slightly better than tumble recovery, as the rocket presents its full LATERAL SURFACE (as would be seen on the pad) to the airflow. I don’t think tumble gets better than that.

the APOGEE article DOES mention Magnus recovery, I didn’t understand it and don’t know how to replicate it.

I may do an easy horizontal spin build here soon, need to finish Piroutte first.
 
In fact even in the Apogee article above there is a minimal discussion of it with one picture.
design

I can also tell you based on looking at that picture (figure 13)
Yes, let's please look again at page 10, figure 13.
page10image4017275552page10image4017275888page10image4017276160page10image4017276432page10image4017277184

https://www.apogeerockets.com/education/downloads/Newsletter447.pdfIs this a real model rocket? Is it now or has it ever been a kit? It has bent fins. Why/how do those fins work to make the cylinder spin and create the Magnus effect?
 

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To my knowledge figure 13 it is NOT a real rocket, it’s a rendering. I also don’t believe it is workable, the rapid horizontal spin doesn’t stop when it hits the ground. Think helicopter tipping over sideways. This is why the RING design works, there is no “edge” to hit the ground, the RING hits the ground and can keep spinning with slamming into something, it will suffer friction but no IMPACT secondary to its spin. It does have the impact from its vertical velocity, but ALL tumble recovery rockets have that.

I haven’t been able to find ANY records online of any actual working horizontal spin recovery rockets other than my own. Not saying they don’t exist, just that if they were ever done, they apparently weren’t very popular.

also emphasize that the Magnus effect of a FALLING rocket to my knowledge creates a lateral force, NOT an upward force. Interesting debate here..
http://www.halfbakery.com/idea/Magnus_20Effect_20Rocket_20Recovery
Interestingly, rotating rockets can have a backsliding effect as long as the rotate, but they lose it when they stop rotating.

https://patents.google.com/patent/US6926576
http://www.gorgerocketclub.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/03/Backslider.pdf
 
page10image4017277184

Which direction do you think this rocket will spin?
I'd guess clockwise.


BailOutBillTail.jpg

Which direction does this rocket spin?
I'd guess clockwise.
 
page10image4017277184

Which direction do you think this rocket will spin?
I'd guess clockwise.


BailOutBillTail.jpg

Which direction does this rocket spin?
I'd guess clockwise.
Yup, looking down from nose to tail, clockwise. It’s not like Coriolis force, you just have to put all your windows on either the clockwise or counter side.
 
Yup, looking down from nose to tail, clockwise. It’s not like Coriolis force, you just have to put all your windows on either the clockwise or counter side.
So how does it work?
IMHO, it must be the basic airfoil effect. The air pressure is lower on one side of the fin because the air moving past has to follow a longer path.
 
So how does it work?
IMHO, it must be the basic airfoil effect. The air pressure is lower on one side of the fin because the air moving past has to follow a longer path.
Hopefully @prfesser while chime in here.

I don’t think the spinning rocket generates any vertical/upward lift whatsoever. I think it is the principle of angular momentum that “forces” a falling rotating cylinder to orient perpendicular to the direction of the fall vector. Since the fall vector is down, the cylinder orients horizontally, essentially falling “sideways”.

Jump to 35:30







a normal ascending rocket and a ballistic descending rocket are oriented with the long axis parallel to the of the force vector (the motor pushing the rocket UP for ascent, gravity DOWN for decent. The rocket orientation is the most efficient (lowest drag) when the pointy end is aimed in the direction of travel.

at apogee for a few moments the VERTICAL kinetic force drops to zero and the rocket stops ascending (although it frequently has acquired some lateral motion such as from weathercocking. As it starts to fall, those fin extensions directed anti-radially (perpendicular to any line drawn through the the central axis of the rocket in the axial plane) on the Apogee figure 13 generate a small rotational force. I theeeeenk this small force pushes or keeps the nose TOWARD HORIZONTAL, which as the rocket falls generates even MORE rotational force and more spin. One spin is established, the rocket is still falling, but falling very inefficiently, instead of falling nose first with minimum drag, it is falling literally sideways with maximum drag. Note that streamer competition models sometimes will use an external shock cord mount at the body tube CG (with expended motor casing and nose cone, chute, and wadding out) PRECISELY to take advantage of this extra drag as the rocket falls.

as far as the EFFECTIVENESS of this drag in slowing the rocket, I would say it is something like optimized tumble recovery, you are using ONLY the fins and body of the rocket to generate drag.
 
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if you Google “horizontal spin model recovery you will not come up with very much.
https://marsclub.org/mars-challenge/
I can also tell you based on looking at that picture (figure 13) and building my first horizontal recovery spin rocket that that will only work for one flight.

I may do an easy horizontal spin build here soon, need to finish Piroutte first.

I've applied to the Mars Club for more information on the results of their contest. And also applied to rejoin NAR. My old number 34850 expired in 1987!

Work has begun in my lab constructing a flyable model of figure 13 for experimental purposes on the bench and in the field. I'd like to post pix of the model - but should I do that here or start new thread? I suppose I could do it in Odd Rocs, Recovery or in the Scratch Built forum. What would be best?

Thanks again for your inspiration, experience and help.
 
I've applied to the Mars Club for more information on the results of their contest. And also applied to rejoin NAR. My old number 34850 expired in 1987!

Work has begun in my lab constructing a flyable model of figure 13 for experimental purposes on the bench and in the field. I'd like to post pix of the model - but should I do that here or start new thread? I suppose I could do it in Odd Rocs, Recovery or in the Scratch Built forum. What would be best?

Thanks again for your inspiration, experience and help.
I’d start a new thread. I don’t know how much attention you’d get in the Recovery section, I seems like that section is mainly devoted to questions on chutes, streamers, electric and/or dual deployment. OddRocs is usually devoted to making rockets out of things that AREN’T usually rockets, like Pigs, Green Men from Outer Space, World War 2 bombers, Tapeworms, Skulls and full Skeletons, Outhouses....and so forth. So I think Scratch Built might be your best bet.

as I said, I built something close to figure 13, it definitely works (remember, you have to dump the nose weight, although now that I think of it, the Backsliders DID slide (sort of glide) as long as they were SPINNING, some of them stopped backsliding and returned to ballistic trajectory when they STOPPED SPINNING. The problem with the figure 13 design is that without a ring on the outside, it is just about guaranteed to break a fin when it comes in (and even WITH a ring fin on the outside, it comes in a bit hot and you want sturdy braces for the ring.). Think, you have a ton of rotational kinetic energy, would you rather land on a spinning wheel or an orthogonal plank?

given this and your affinity and success with rings, I recommend the ring route.

thanks for jogging my brain cells, I think a combo of my “water wheel” spin design with a 30 to1 length to diameter ratio and a forward (just behind nose cone) single side port to kick the angle of attack waaaaaaaay off may be just the plan for a reliable back slider!
 
I’d start a new thread. I don’t know how much attention you’d get in the Recovery section, I seems like that section is mainly devoted to questions on chutes, streamers, electric and/or dual deployment. OddRocs is usually devoted to making rockets out of things that AREN’T usually rockets, like Pigs, Green Men from Outer Space, World War 2 bombers, Tapeworms, Skulls and full Skeletons, Outhouses....and so forth. So I think Scratch Built might be your best bet.

as I said, I built something close to figure 13, it definitely works (remember, you have to dump the nose weight, although now that I think of it, the Backsliders DID slide (sort of glide) as long as they were SPINNING, some of them stopped backsliding and returned to ballistic trajectory when they STOPPED SPINNING. The problem with the figure 13 design is that without a ring on the outside, it is just about guaranteed to break a fin when it comes in (and even WITH a ring fin on the outside, it comes in a bit hot and you want sturdy braces for the ring.). Think, you have a ton of rotational kinetic energy, would you rather land on a spinning wheel or an orthogonal plank?

given this and your affinity and success with rings, I recommend the ring route.

thanks for jogging my brain cells, I think a combo of my “water wheel” spin design with a 30 to1 length to diameter ratio and a forward (just behind nose cone) single side port to kick the angle of attack waaaaaaaay off may be just the plan for a reliable back slider!
Yes, I hope to arrive at a horizontal spin recovery model with a ring. But first I feel the need to experiment from a fairly known starting point such as figure 13. "Figure 13" - what a name for a rocket! I'll try to think of something I like better. I don't mind breaking a few fins if I can learn something from it. I may try skins and/or braces to reinforce the exposed spinning fins.

What sort of area would you allow for your blow-over slot? How much delay would you use on the motor?
 
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