B.A.R. Question

[BarmyBill]

Many actually,My last launch was probably in 1985? lol.Well,I built a scale model airplane recently,for something to do.That got me thinking about rockets and all the good times I had as a kid.So,I'm gonna buy an Estes kit tomorrow,to have something to launch....

I've been doing a lot of online research,and found this cool forum,but,WOW,how things have changed!I'm trying to sort out the new motors and sizes...I guess my old "d" rockets would be pipsqueaks now...

So heres the question...What is the biggest motor I can fly without having to be certified for anything or sign up for anything?
There is a park near me where the rocket club meets,their homepage said they can get "k"permission for scheduled meets.

The biggest I ever launched was a "d",I'd be interested in beating this.

Also,what diameter in mm's would that largest size be?I'm gonna pick a simple,single engine,single stage rocket to launch the biggest motor I can.

thanks for the info....

 

[AlexM]

You can launch up to a G motor without being certified, however, there will probably be a FAA notification/waiver needed. If you are launching with a club, they will probably have this taken care of, but I would just double check with them. G's are 29mm engines, D12's are 24mm, C6's are 18mm along with B6's and some A's. One good place you can check out is www.info-central.org . It should have a lot of useful info for you. You can find 29mm kits online from many vendors, so just look around and find one you like.

 

[shreadvector]

https://home.flash.net/~samily/stuff/HPR_metric8.pdf

Launching in most parks without the permission of the parks department is a "no-no". Depending on what town or city you live in, "no-no" might equal a big fine or jail time. Basically many parks departments are concerned with any liability and if your rocket can possibly go awry (even if you don't want it to) and fly a loooong arc and hit cars or people far away from you who had no idea a rocket was on it's way.

Talk to your local club people and find out what your local regulatory situation is.

 

[doug_man_sams]

What is the biggest motor I can fly without having to be certified for anything or sign up for anything?

You can fly almost all F motors and most G motors. F's come in 24mm and 29mm while G's are usually 29mm with one or two 38mm's out there.

There are 6 conditions, any of which constitutes a high power flight, and two of which require FAA notification or FAA waivers.

If you're at a club launch, you need to worry about all 6. If you're flying on you're own, you only need to worry about the FAA.

The six condtions are:
1. No single motor can exceed 160Ns impulse.
2. A cluster of motors cannot exceed 320Ns combined.
3. No single motor can exceed 62.5g propellant. (Some G motors exceed this limit.)
4. If total propellant mass (clustered, staged) exceeds 113g (4oz), FAA notification is required. If total propellant mass exceeds 125g (4.4oz), an FAA waiver is required.
5. If total rocket mass exceeds 453g (1lb), FAA notification is required. If total rocket mass exceeds 1500g (3.3lb), an FAA waiver is required.
6. If the average thrust of any single motor exceeds 80N, then it is cosidered HPR (and certification is required). Some F and G motors exceed this limit.

Items 4 & 5 pertain to the FAA. BTW, the zone between FAA notification and waivers is the LMR - large model rocket - category.

https://home.flash.net/~samily/stuff/HPR_metric8.pdf

HTH.

Doug

 

[m85476585]

Welcome to the forum.

You should start off with some Estes kits, A, B, C, D, and maybe E. If you are not confident in your skills you might want to start with a skill-level 1 kit. After you are completely comfortable building and flying Estes kits, you can try some bigger kits (and engines)

Using the biggest engines that will fit is not always a good idea. With Estes kits, you should really only use Estes motors, unless you know it will be OK to do something bigger. For example, An Estes Executioner (8-10oz) will fly on D12s, E9s, of F21s. If you leave the engine mount out on an Alpha (0.8oz), you can put in Ds, Es, and Fs, but that doesn't mean you should. (It might not even be stable).

 

[strudleman]

G power is the biggest single engine motor you can fly without a certification, that's a 29mm motor. But from the sounds of it, your next thread will probably be asking us how to certify

 

[Reed Goodwin]

Okay, there are 38mm G reloads out there, so you aren't limited to the 29mm motors. Granted, there aren't many, but they're there. Now from your question it seems that you only want single-use motors, and there are no single-use 38mm G motors available that I am aware of.

Doug, I think your sixth point is a little confusing. It may use HPR cases, but it doesn't necessarily mean you have to be certified. Otherwise, those are some great conditions.
Reed

 

[dasheight-8]

I see you are from Ohio. If you are near Cincinnati/Dayton/Columbus there are a couple of clubs. QUARK, the NAR club, launches from the northside of Cincinnati. Tripoli MidOhio launches in Urbana, OH. Tripoli is having a high power launch this weekend, Oct 15/16. This would be a great place to meet fellow rocket people and see what's going on in the world of rocketry. I believe the Tripoli website in www.tripolimidohio.org Full launch details and directions are there.

 

[doug_man_sams]

Doug, I think your sixth point is a little confusing. It may use HPR cases, but it doesn't necessarily mean you have to be certified.

Hi, Reed,
It's not about the case. It's about the average thrust. The G125 and old F101 are both considered HPR because they both exceed 80N average thrust. Even if it was a D81 or an A81, it would be considered HPR by that standard.

And because of that, you have to be certified to fly them (at club launches). That said, I imagine some clubs allow them to be flown by lev 0 fliers, but technically, they are HPR motors.

FWIW, I believe the 80N limit is in the rules as a result of a CPSC rule, a stupid CPSC rule.

Doug

 

[Adam Selene]

I don't know what CPSC is, but as far as NAR is concerned, i don't think average thrust is relevant, it's total impulse that matters. I could be wrong.

 

[Reed Goodwin]

Originally posted by Adam Selene
I don't know what CPSC is, but as far as NAR is concerned, i don't think average thrust is relevant, it's total impulse that matters. I could be wrong.

Yeah, that's what I was thinking. I thought it was laways about the total N-s.
Reed

 

[MarkABrown]

Originally posted by Adam Selene
I don't know what CPSC is, but as far as NAR is concerned, i don't think average thrust is relevant, it's total impulse that matters. I could be wrong.

CPSC is the Consumer Product Safety Commission.

 

[doug_man_sams]

...as far as NAR is concerned, i don't think average thrust is relevant

"A rocket exceeds the definition of a model rocket under NFPA 1122 and becomes a high power rocket under NFPA 1127 if it: Uses a motor with more than 80 Newtons average thrust (see rocket motor coding);"

From https://www.nar.org/NARmodeltypes.html , bottom of page.

Doug

 

[loopy]

Originally posted by dasheight-8
I see you are from Ohio. If you are near Cincinnati/Dayton/Columbus there are a couple of clubs. QUARK, the NAR club, launches from the northside of Cincinnati. Tripoli MidOhio launches in Urbana, OH. Tripoli is having a high power launch this weekend, Oct 15/16. This would be a great place to meet fellow rocket people and see what's going on in the world of rocketry. I believe the Tripoli website in www.tripolimidohio.org Full launch details and directions are there.

Dang, you beat me to it...lol


Quark launches at the VOA park in WestChester (exit 22 on I-75), pretty much every other week. They fly on a 4,500 foot waiver, up to full K power. Launch fees are $1 per day, or $5 per year.

Tripoli Mid-Ohio launches under a 10,000 foot waiver on a level 3 capable field. I believe their launch fees are $5 per day. I've never been there, but might be there this weekend just to watch.

No matter where you go to launch with a club, they should have all the details taken care of as far as waivers/notifications, so all you have to worry about is your rockets. You can fly up through G power without certification or NAR/Tripoli membership, and most mid-power motors are 29 mm with a few 38 mm g's showing up now and then. Reloads are the way to go if you plan on being in this hobby for more than one launch...lol. For mid power, the Aerotech 29mm40-120 casing is an absolute must have. This is a 29mm casing that will handle a number of loads from E to G power. There is also a 29mm 120 casing you can get that will fly some nice G loads, and a 38mm 120 casing that does the same. Cesaroni Pro38 also has a couple of 38mm G loads. Aerotech (www.aerotech-rocketry.com ) also has some nice kits to learn mid power on, as do companies like Public Missiles (www.publicmissiles.com) and LOC/Precision (www.locprecision.com).

Pretty much just show up at a launch, and there will be lots of people there to help with any questions you might have. Welcome to the fold, now open your wallet and start spending!

 

[Adam Selene]

Originally posted by doug_man_sams
"A rocket exceeds the definition of a model rocket under NFPA 1122 and becomes a high power rocket under NFPA 1127 if it: Uses a motor with more than 80 Newtons average thrust (see rocket motor coding);"

From https://www.nar.org/NARmodeltypes.html , bottom of page.

Doug

Never saw that before, including while studying for my L2 test! thanks for pointing it out.

 

[BarmyBill]

Its a lot to absorb,all the new things in rocketry.Seems more advanced and specialized now,with an emphasis on the high-power end.The base,the large pool of hobby rocketeers doesnt seem as broad as it used to be,with so many kids playing electronic games,as opposed to actually building things.Either way,I am exited to launch,and plan to build a simple rocket and launch it,just to get back in the air.
All of my old rockets,launch stuff,building materials have gone by the wayside over the years,so I'm starting from scratch.The only exception being the paints and materials I've gotten together to do some scale plastic modeling.Thinking back to when I did it before,I usually did scale models during the winter,with rocketry being more of a summer pastime.

I'll definetly check out the old V.O.A. park,I grew up in that area and remember picking up the Spanish language broadcasts bleeding through the AM radio in the car.It's a big area and I hope they permit launches aside from meets.If not ,It would be interesting to do launches with a group of people,and have all the clearances/etc taken care of.

Also thanks for the technical info,on the bore sizes of rockets etc....from what ive read so far,it looks like there are rocket kits available with 24/29 mm conversions...I might go with one of those...any comments on favorite kit manufacturers?Ive been looking around,liked what i saw on US Rockets site...

anyway thanks,Ill read as much as I can here,will be busy this winter,but hope to have time to build a couple for a spring launch...

 

[loopy]

U.S. rockets has some good stuff. For just starting off in mid-power, I'd probably go Aerotech so you don't have to worry about motor retention or anything like that. This will allow you to just get used to dealing with bigger rockets and the motors without having to worry about how to build the darn thing so it goes up. My favorite first mid power kit is the Aerotech Initiator. Fairly large, but still pretty manageable, and stays fairly low on F reloads. Excellent kit.

VOA does allow rocketry outside of the club launches. It's funny - we'll be launching, then we'll see a rocket go up from across the park. The field is a nice size, so recovery isn't normally a problem.

Quark launches roughly every other week at VOA. We're off this coming weekend, but I think we're launching next weekend if you want to come out and just see what it's like out there.

 

[strudleman]

Or check out https://www.rocketinabox.com/

Nice looking kits. They break down into their original boxes for easy transportation, and fly on D's, E's, F's and G's. The owner is a very nice guy, as well (aren't they all? I love this hobby)