Avoiding getting $crewed on water heater replacement

[KennB]

It was nice to see Bill Spadafora's posts again. He is sorely missed by his club, S&T and rocketeers in general.

Living in New England, my water heaters don't have a great life span; I was fortunate enough to have Bill do the two replacements. I'll need to find someone else for the next round and, likely, sooner rather than later.

 

[Papa Elf]

It was nice to see Bill Spadafora's posts again. He is sorely missed by his club, S&T and rocketeers in general.

Living in New England, my water heaters don't have a great life span; I was fortunate enough to have Bill do the two replacements. I'll need to find someone else for the next round and, likely, sooner rather than later.

Yeah, I saw this come up yesterday and I was going mention a few things I know, but then I saw Bill's posts and decided not to post on a old thread, especially since the person who revived it mentioned what I was going ask .

Bill was a great guy. I sure miss him, and CMASS, and S&T.

 

[les]

Well, I bought my house 23 years ago. The heater was old then. In fact, the engineer I had inspect the house actually warned me to not open the drain valve since it probably would not properly seal again. So here I am , 23 years later. Never have drained the bloody thing but still getting hot water.

By now everyone on this topic has replaced their sacrificial anodes in their tanks at least 2 times.

Update for me. We finally replaced the hot water heater (oil burner) about 3 years ago. It never leaked, heated water fine, but the service man, during its once every 3~4 year tuneup, really pushed to replace the burner. I decided the entire unit should finally be replaced.
I took the serial number and contacted the manufacturer. Turns out it was made around 48 years ago! And based on the inspector engineer's recommendation, I never flushed it, nor did I ever change the anodes. So they (whatever may have been left) were 30 years old.
Needless to say, I made certain I bought the replacement from the same manufacturer of the unit that lasted 48 years. Doubt the new one will last as long. Doubt I'll last another 48 years (well, 45 more now)

 

[bjphoenix]

We moved into a 10 year old house about 12 years ago, it had 2 gas water heaters in the attic. After a little while I started wondering about the water heaters, I thought I remembered that the then age of 12 years was reaching the lifespan. I called the plumber that I had been using, they told me that normal lifespan of a gas water heater was 10-12 years. I said well my current water heaters are 12 years old so get me 2 new ones. Total cost was $2500 to replace both of them. We just had a normal flimsy fold down ladder going into the attic so I thought about it for awhile about how I could build a cheap rope hoist to get the things up and down. The plumber told me not to worry, they could handle it. Two of them, fairly big guys, took the old ones down and the new ones up without any apparent difficulty.

At our previous house we had the water heater replaced 5 years before we moved, it was a gas water heater in a little closet off of the garage. The plumber who replaced it said he used to be an aircraft repair technician. Building codes change occasionally and my new gas water heater had to be installed on a platform to get it a 18" or 24" above the floor, apparently since flammable gases in a garage will stay close to the floor.

The house I owned before that I also had to replace the water heater. Our current house, the 4th house I've owned, has a pretty old water heater but it's electric and in the garage so I don't worry too much about it.

 

[vcp]

Ok, fun, ancient thread. I've got something to add.

Early 2000's. The house I had been in for about 15 years was maybe 40 years old and probably had the original gas furnace, and maybe the original AC too.

• Gas forced-air furnace was in the crawl space at the center of the house; a bitch to get to.
  • Horrible job to change air filters.
  • It broke fan belts a few times and that was a horrible DIY job too.
  • The control board died and I had to troubleshoot and repair that. AC transformer had died. I never asked but I'm sure nobody would have tried to repair it and I doubt a replacement could have been found. Had a transformer on hand that I made to fit and that kept it going for a few more years. All it cost was a horrible day under the house.
• AC was ancient too.
  • The outside fan motor died and I found a replacement motor that I just had to cut down the shaft to fit. DIY $100.
  • Also replaced the compressor starting caps once.

So both of those were being held together with band-aids and spit. But eventually, the AC compressor died and it was time to shop for a new system. Furnace and AC, it was time to do both. One firm requirement was that I wanted the furnace out from under the house—room for it in the garage. So I got a few quotes and one guy mentioned something in passing, a 'water-coil' system. Wait a minute, go back to that.

One thing I hadn't mentioned is that our water heater was working fine, but it was older, small, and took up space in the small laundry room. It wouldn't hurt to replace it, and, if possible I wanted it moved to the garage too (just the other side of the wall).

The 'water-coil' system [sorry, I don't have any other name for it] just uses an air-handler that has heat exchanger coils for the AC and hot water. The hot water is supplied by circulating it through your water heater with a small external pump. It sounded like a fun thing to geek with so that's what I bought.

• It wasn't more expensive, considering that I got a new furnace, AC, and a larger more efficient water heater.
• Everything went in the garage, where I wanted it anyway.
• They re-used most of the duct work from the old AC/furnace, which probably wasn't the best idea, but was cheaper and seemed to work.
• A termpering valve was used to maintain a constant hot water temperature supplied to the house.

Results:

• The AC was of course much more efficient and worked better.
• The heating, total gas use, wasn't dramatically more efficient, but hard to tell because of changes in household use. I didn't try to make definitive measurements, but it seemed better.
• We always had hot water, except at the onset of cold weather. I'd notice filling a tub that the hot water was running out, so I knew that it was the time of year to go out and crank up the temp on the water heater a few degrees. And then remember to turn it back down in the spring. I called it Dial-A-BTU. The tempering valve kept he hot water temp in the house the same.
• One of the advantages [the sales guy claimed] was that you only had one 'combustion appliance' to be concerned with. There was nothing to the air handler, it was just a blower and the coils. It was just a normal, larger, better, water heater. And a simple pump.
• The sales guy also claimed that circulating water through the water heater actually reduced scale and improved its lifetime. Dunno.
• We used it for about 12 years until we sold the house. No problems, we were satisfied with all of it. Edit: Oh, I forgot that the AC compressor died, but we were selling the house and it went as-is, someone else's problem.

ToDo: Something I wanted to try but never got around, was to build some solar water panels on the roof. Circulate that water through a ~15 gal tank that had heat exchange coils that circulated water from the water heater - heater coil loop. Would have been interesting to try. Controller monitoring temps and pumps would have been a geekfest.

What do you think? Was that different? Heard of it before? Worth the effort [the whole thing, not just the solar stuff]?

 

[tsmmiller]

Ok, fun, ancient thread. I've got something to add.

Early 2000's. The house I had been in for about 15 years was maybe 40 years old and probably had the original gas furnace, and maybe the original AC too.

• Gas forced-air furnace was in the crawl space at the center of the house; a bitch to get to.
  • Horrible job to change air filters.
  • It broke fan belts a few times and that was a horrible DIY job too.
  • The control board died and I had to troubleshoot and repair that. AC transformer had died. I never asked but I'm sure nobody would have tried to repair it and I doubt a replacement could have been found. Had a transformer on hand that I made to fit and that kept it going for a few more years. All it cost was a horrible day under the house.
• AC was ancient too.
  • The outside fan motor died and I found a replacement motor that I just had to cut down the shaft to fit. DIY $100.
  • Also replaced the compressor starting caps once.

So both of those were being held together with band-aids and spit. But eventually, the AC compressor died and it was time to shop for a new system. Furnace and AC, it was time to do both. One firm requirement was that I wanted the furnace out from under the house—room for it in the garage. So I got a few quotes and one guy mentioned something in passing, a 'water-coil' system. Wait a minute, go back to that.

One thing I hadn't mentioned is that our water heater was working fine, but it was older, small, and took up space in the small laundry room. It wouldn't hurt to replace it, and, if possible I wanted it moved to the garage too (just the other side of the wall).

The 'water-coil' system [sorry, I don't have any other name for it] just uses an air-handler that has heat exchanger coils for the AC and hot water. The hot water is supplied by circulating it through your water heater with a small external pump. It sounded like a fun thing to geek with so that's what I bought.

• It wasn't more expensive, considering that I got a new furnace, AC, and a larger more efficient water heater.
• Everything went in the garage, where I wanted it anyway.
• They re-used most of the duct work from the old AC/furnace, which probably wasn't the best idea, but was cheaper and seemed to work.
• A termpering valve was used to maintain a constant hot water temperature supplied to the house.

Results:

• The AC was of course much more efficient and worked better.
• The heating, total gas use, wasn't dramatically more efficient, but hard to tell because of changes in household use. I didn't try to make definitive measurements, but it seemed better.
• We always had hot water, except at the onset of cold weather. I'd notice filling a tub that the hot water was running out, so I knew that it was the time of year to go out and crank up the temp on the water heater a few degrees. And then remember to turn it back down in the spring. I called it Dial-A-BTU. The tempering valve kept he hot water temp in the house the same.
• One of the advantages [the sales guy claimed] was that you only had one 'combustion appliance' to be concerned with. There was nothing to the air handler, it was just a blower and the coils. It was just a normal, larger, better, water heater. And a simple pump.
• The sales guy also claimed that circulating water through the water heater actually reduced scale and improved its lifetime. Dunno.
• We used it for about 12 years until we sold the house. No problems, we were satisfied with all of it. Edit: Oh, I forgot that the AC compressor died, but we were selling the house and it went as-is, someone else's problem.

ToDo: Something I wanted to try but never got around, was to build some solar water panels on the roof. Circulate that water through a ~15 gal tank that had heat exchange coils that circulated water from the water heater - heater coil loop. Would have been interesting to try. Controller monitoring temps and pumps would have been a geekfest.

What do you think? Was that different? Heard of it before? Worth the effort [the whole thing, not just the solar stuff]?

What you had was an “Apollo Heat System.” I am glad yours worked. The one that was in the home I purchased never did. The house was always cold and forget trying to heat the house and take a hot shower. I tried to upgrade the tank but was told I already had the largest available.
I lost the blower motor, easy enough to fix myself so did so. Then I noticed a stain on the laundry room wall. I felt it and found it hot. Tore into the wall to reveal a leaking hot water pipe. I spliced that and sealed the wall up again. Hot water heater finally quit. Took the plumber a full week to get the replacement.
Once I got the house sold we were in the process of moving out and prior to the home inspection I noticed dampness on the closet floor where the downstairs heat exchanger was located. Opened it up to find a leaking coil. Rush purchase a new one where I found that the home was plumbed in Qest piping that was an odd ball diameter. A rush to find splices and adapters.
Found it all only to realize I needed special tools to expand the Teflon sleeves. Off to the hardware store where none were avaible to rent but to purchase? Sure! $475.00!!!! I needed it so made the purchase. Went to the house, made the repairs, sealed everything back up. Including the tool used for one sleeve. Took it back and told them Mrs had hired a plumber and the job was done before I made it home. Home inspector was happy and I was happy to be rid of that house.

 

[droopy]

Good info in this post. Here's my story. Bought the house about 7 years ago. It had a 20 year old electric water heater. (We're on a well with fairly hard water.) I figured it was on its last legs and got some estimates for a propane on demand heater. After seeing the 10K dollar quote I decided that it was a DIY project. Expanded my propane with black pipe to the garage where the heater was going, figured out the venting for the new heater (for you DIYers, that's probably the most difficult part of changing to an on demand heater is the venting requirements are different from your old gas water heater and also different depending on whether you are putting in a condensing or non-condensing heater...). I bought a big Rinnai heater and the entire installation took a couple hours.

Pros: We NEVER run out of hot water. Big Jacuzzi bathtub. Not a problem. Even with the clothes and dishwashers running simultaneously.
Cons: Takes about 30 seconds more to get hot water. Not a big deal, but when waiting, that 30 seconds seems like 10 minutes. There are recirculation solutions to this, but I chose not to do it.

Maintenance: You are supposed to backflush every year. It came with valves to make this simple to do with any of the cheap kits you can buy on Amazon. I do it every 6 months as it only takes an hour... And most of that is just letting the pump run.

I'd definitely do it again. It is so much more efficient that my old heater and I love the lack of worry about running out on busy days.

Of note, when I threw the old heater into the truck to take it to the dump, the entire bottom fell off due to rust. Couldn't have time it better!

 

[Marc_G]

Good info in this post. Here's my story. Bought the house about 7 years ago. It had a 20 year old electric water heater. (We're on a well with fairly hard water.) I figured it was on its last legs and got some estimates for a propane on demand heater. After seeing the 10K dollar quote I decided that it was a DIY project. Expanded my propane with black pipe to the garage where the heater was going, figured out the venting for the new heater (for you DIYers, that's probably the most difficult part of changing to an on demand heater is the venting requirements are different from your old gas water heater and also different depending on whether you are putting in a condensing or non-condensing heater...). I bought a big Rinnai heater and the entire installation took a couple hours.

Pros: We NEVER run out of hot water. Big Jacuzzi bathtub. Not a problem. Even with the clothes and dishwashers running simultaneously.
Cons: Takes about 30 seconds more to get hot water. Not a big deal, but when waiting, that 30 seconds seems like 10 minutes. There are recirculation solutions to this, but I chose not to do it.

Maintenance: You are supposed to backflush every year. It came with valves to make this simple to do with any of the cheap kits you can buy on Amazon. I do it every 6 months as it only takes an hour... And most of that is just letting the pump run.

I'd definitely do it again. It is so much more efficient that my old heater and I love the lack of worry about running out on busy days.

Of note, when I threw the old heater into the truck to take it to the dump, the entire bottom fell off due to rust. Couldn't have time it better!

With my Rinnai tankless I had the plumber put in the recirculation loop, and it makes a great difference in availability of warm/hot water. It's worth considering retrofitting in if it is practical in your case. My heater cycles some hot water through every 25 minutes during 7am-11pm (adjustable timing of course). So, for all except the back bedroom, hot or at least reasonably warm water is only 5 seconds away. Love it!

 

[NTP2]

With my Rinnai tankless I had the plumber put in the recirculation loop, and it makes a great difference in availability of warm/hot water. It's worth considering retrofitting in if it is practical in your case. My heater cycles some hot water through every 25 minutes during 7am-11pm (adjustable timing of course). So, for all except the back bedroom, hot or at least reasonably warm water is only 5 seconds away. Love it!

cool, maybe you could use it with a smart home, so it worms up the water just before you normally take a shower!

 

[jderimig]

With my Rinnai tankless I had the plumber put in the recirculation loop, and it makes a great difference in availability of warm/hot water. It's worth considering retrofitting in if it is practical in your case. My heater cycles some hot water through every 25 minutes during 7am-11pm (adjustable timing of course). So, for all except the back bedroom, hot or at least reasonably warm water is only 5 seconds away. Love it!

In such a system is there a small tank in the unit for the recirculating water? I have a recirculating loop for my tank heater, great for showers.

 

[Marc_G]

cool, maybe you could use it with a smart home, so it worms up the water just before you normally take a shower!

The energy use to pump a slug of hot water through the lines every 25 minutes is trivial, so I leave it on except during times I'm usually asleep. Alternatively there's a button I could have installed to prime the system with hot water on demand rather than on a repeating cycle.

 

[Marc_G]

In such a system is there a small tank in the unit for the recirculating water? I have a recirculating loop for my tank heater, great for showers.

No small storage tank, it just pushes it through the main copper hot water line in my basement from which the various faucets branch off, then back to the heater though a PEX return line. Total about forty feet or so of half inch lines. The copper pipes have foam insulation to reduce heat loss.

 

[James Duffy]

With my Rinnai tankless

I have nothing of consequence to add here, except to state that tankless water heaters are the greatest invention since the advent of the wheel. Happy, joyful, endless, hot water is perhaps the peak of the human experience.

I seem to recall that the arrival of the Rinnai system was foretold in Isaiah. If I am wrong I am certain that someone more learned in Biblical prophecy than I will correct me.

 

[jderimig]

No small storage tank, it just pushes it through the main copper hot water line in my basement from which the various faucets branch off, then back to the heater though a PEX return line. Total about forty feet or so of half inch lines. The copper pipes have foam insulation to reduce heat loss.

Does the tankless heater periodically cycle to keep the recirculation temperature up?

 

[Marc_G]

Does the tankless heater periodically cycle to keep the recirculation temperature up?

Yes, it has several settings for this. Mine cycles about every 20-25 minutes just long enough to get hot water through the pipes.

 

[jderimig]

Yes, it has several settings for this. Mine cycles about every 20-25 minutes just long enough to get hot water through the pipes.

Is your's gas or electric? If gas, how many BTU's/hr?

My water heater is due, 13 years old. Its a 75gallon power vent, hideously expensive.

 

[Marc_G]

Product page for the series of tankless I have:

https://www.rinnai.us/residential/product-detail/rsc199in

Note that Rinnai can be bought on Amazon etc and self installed or installed by your local preferred plumber without voiding warranty. Others like Navien are less available for DIY and can only be bought/installed by certified plumbers for extra $$

 

[NTP2]

Product page for the series of tankless I have:

https://www.rinnai.us/residential/product-detail/rsc199in

Note that Rinnai can be bought on Amazon etc and self installed or installed by your local preferred plumber without voiding warranty. Others like Navien are less available for DIY and can only be bought/installed by certified plumbers for extra $$

hold it, you don't get the warranty if you self install!!!! thats awful!!

 

[Marc_G]

hold it, you don't get the warranty if you self install!!!! thats awful!!

It's a big complaint about Navien products, and one of the reasons I went with Rinnai. I called up a local father and son team for install because I didn't want to mess with gas piping, and they knew exactly how to put in the new condensing exhaust needed, better than I would have done.

My unit is 15k BTU, plenty a for pretty much any home.

The only downside is there is lag when demand for hot water changes. So, imagine you are under your shower head enjoying continuous blissful hot water. Then someone elsewhere in the house say at the kitchen sink turns on the faucet. For about 10-30 seconds, the increased flow of water through the heater will cause the output temp to be cooler until the heater ramps up and gets back to the set temperature at the increased flow. When this temporary slug of cooler water gets to your showerhead it will feel annoyingly cooler. It's just the physics of the technology. Temp balancing valves in modern shower valves reduce but not eliminate this.

 

[jderimig]

My unit is 15k BTU, plenty a for pretty much any home.

Yours is 199K BTU. 15K is minimum burner output.

 

[Marc_G]

I have a thermometer taped to the outside of the tankless heater output pipe, and it records temp minute by minute (because I'm that much of a geek).

It doesn't read the actual water temperature (due to the nature of the sensor and it's relatively poor connection to the pipe), but it's good for following trends. Here is its recorded temperature this morning, starting at a 68F reading before the routine cycles kicked in on a timer. The rough area is where my wife was showering while I intermittently used hot water in the kitchen at about 7:45.



We have a maid service do some cleaning every few weeks, they were in the house this morning while my wife and I were out; interrupted cycles are visible when they turned on hot water.

 

[NTP2]

I have a thermometer taped to the outside of the tankless heater output pipe, and it records temp minute by minute (because I'm that much of a geek).

It doesn't read the actual water temperature (due to the nature of the sensor and it's relatively poor connection to the pipe), but it's good for following trends. Here is its recorded temperature this morning, starting at a 68F reading before the routine cycles kicked in on a timer. The rough area is where my wife was showering while I intermittently used hot water in the kitchen at about 7:45.

View attachment 681326

We have a maid service do some cleaning every few weeks, they were in the house this morning while my wife and I were out; interrupted cycles are visible when they turned on hot water.

in disappointed you don't use Celsius, We might have to revoke your nerd membership...

 

[Marc_G]

Yours is 199K BTU. 15K is minimum burner output.

Thanks for the correction! I grabbed the first number I saw.

 

[Bravo52]

One thing to consider when installing a gas-fired tankless water heater is the possibility that you'll need to add a larger gas line. Most (many) older housing codes and appliances only required a 1/2 in service line where some new tankless units can require larger lines (3/4 in). Not a big deal, but an added cost. When I replaced my water heater, that was a factor in choosing to go back to what I had.

 

[jderimig]

One thing to consider when installing a gas-fired tankless water heater is the possibility that you'll need to add a larger gas line. Most (many) older housing codes and appliances only required a 1/2 in service line where some new tankless units can require larger lines (3/4 in). Not a big deal, but an added cost. When I replaced my water heater, that was a factor in choosing to go back to what I had.

As a DIY'er there is the relative attractiveness of just shelling out $2700 for another Bradford White and dropping it in where the old one was. No new plumbing, venting, and gas runs I would need to do.

 

[tsmmiller]

As a DIY'er there is the relative attractiveness of just shelling out $2700 for another Bradford White and dropping it in where the old one was. No new plumbing, venting, and gas runs I would need to do.

I would advocate for the tankless system. I don't remember the brand or output of the one installed when I had my home built. I do know that I can fill my lounge tub, run the washer and dish washer with the Mrs running hot water in the sink and never run out of hot water or feel a flux in temp.
There is what some folks call the "dreaded cold water sandwich" similar to what Marc_G describes. I don't notice it when some one else in the house turns on hot water, but if someone showers prior and then you turn on the hot water for yours, I do feel a couple seconds of cooler water temp. Not a big issue for me.
I would never go back to a tank system if I could avoid it.

 

[Art Upton]

As a DIY'er there is the relative attractiveness of just shelling out $2700 for another Bradford White and dropping it in where the old one was. No new plumbing, venting, and gas runs I would need to do.

$2700

I had a Bradford White installed about 10 years ago by the 'on time' plumber... It was less then half that, but electric.

I imagine even electric will be more now. Reading this thread yesterday had me go take a look at the Wada-Header* down stairs next to the rocket lair. Most perishables are up off the floor, but there is one 12x12x30" box of tubes I noticed on the cement floor. I removed the carpet about 2007 downstairs as it was no longer a tiny family room. I'll put a pair of bricks under it for now. I have a facilities manger friend I will have take a look at it and see if it is in 'danger' or not.

My old Electric Wada-Header was put in the new house in 1977, and I replaced it 37 years later; 27 years after I bought the house. It was not heating well and I 'think' it may have had moisture or water someplace on it. Trying to remember...

* Where did all the old Wada-Header rocket posts disappear to ? Was that where the smashing a brick wall came from?

 

[Marc_G]

Let me just say this: I spent close to $4k all in on my tankless, and I've never had fewer regrets on that spend compared to spending that much money on anything else.

 

[jderimig]

$2700

I had a Bradford White installed about 10 years ago by the 'on time' plumber... It was less then half that, but electric.

I installed the BW around 2012-13. It was ~$1900 shipped to my door. It is direct vent condensing and that raises the price considerably. However I got that one for free. The first one got damaged in shipment (dent in sheet metal tank). Replacement shipment also have damage to the box and refused delivery. The wholesaler said no mas (0 for 2) and would not send anymore. I asked what do with the first one? They said I can do what I want with it. I installed it, 12-13 years later still working.

So spending $2600 on a replacement is still a bargain as I got a BOGO free deal on the first.

 

[heada]

I'm at 12 years on my 50gal gas water heater. Been putting off replacing it since a new one was going to be $2k+ and its still working fine. Y'all have convinced me to go tankless. Kinda surprised tankless costs have dropped so much to directly compete with tanks now. When I looked at them ~12 years ago, the cheapest option was 4 or 5 times the cost of a tank.