AT Shipping S/U G Motors

[DynaSoar]

From ROL:

(ROL Newswire) -- AeroTech is pleased to announce that it is shipping its single-use 'G' motors in quantity again for the first time in nearly six months.

Since May of 2004, AeroTech has experienced difficulty in obtaining convolute-wound paper/phenolic motor casing of sufficient quality and quantity for use in the manufacture of its single-use 'E', 'F' and 'G' motors. As a result, AeroTech made a strategic decision to redesign all of its 29mm "standard" 'F' and 'G' & Econojetª 'F' single-use motors to utilize a one-piece molded case and nozzle configuration similar to that currently used in the F20W Econojets, which have been in production since August of 2003. This decision required a substantial investment of company resources including many hours of research and development efforts and large amounts of capital for new molds and inventory.

The redesigned G40Ws began shipping the week of 10/11/04, and the G80Ts will begin production in early November. The G38FJ Econojet will become a "standard" motor at the same price as the G40W. The redesigned F23FJ Econojets have been released for production as well. Molds for the new F25W and F50Ts are being fabricated and motor production is expected to begin after the first of the year. The G35W Econojets have been discontinued, as it is no longer practical to produce an "economy" 'G' motor using the new design.

In related news, a Blue Thunderª Econojet in the same form factor as the F20W and a BlackMaxª motor in the same case as the F25W are under development and will be released once testing and NAR certification is complete.

AeroTech is also in the process of transitioning over to a alternative burn rate catalyst used in its Blue Thunder and Redlineª propellants that has greater stability and storage compatibility with RMS-Plusª delays than the chemical currently being used. However, this catalyst is five times the expense of the old catalyst and adds a substantial cost to the finished propellant. The performance characteristics of the propellant will not change beyond permitted manufacturing tolerances.

Due to the above mentioned redesign, reformulation and general increases in the price of materials, labor, insurance and other costs of doing business, a number of AeroTech single-use motors, RMSª reload kits, starter sets and rocket kits will be subject to a price adjustment. Download the latest AeroTech retail price lists from the Resource Library of the AeroTech website at https://www.aerotech-rocketry.com for details on the specific products affected.

AeroTech Consumer Aerospaceª (AeroTech) is a manufacturer of single-use and reloadable solid and hybrid propellant rocket motors, rocket kits, parts and ground support equipment for the consumer, educational and motion picture special effects markets. AeroTech is a division of RCS Rocket Motor
Components (RCS), Inc. Webiste: https://www.aerotech-rocketry.com

Source: RCS Rocket Motor Components (RCS), Inc.

 

[r1dermon]

higher prices???

 

[n3tjm]

Just when I buy a set of 38's and 54's, Aerotech raises their already high prices again . Tell you this much, I am NOT flying Redline and Blue Thunder anymore. I am sure whatever the new chemical Aerotech is using does not cost that much!
Now I am beginning to think about reselling my Aerotech 38 and 54 stuff, and sticking with LOKI and AMW.

G75J-M 14.95
H128W-M 14.95
H238T-M 16.50
H165R-M 16.50

I600R-M 53.95
J350W-M 47.95
J420R-M 53.95

Oh.. and 53.95 is to much for the I600. You won't see one of those in my rockets

 

[Donaldsrockets]

I'll still fly Aerotech motors but I'll probably use mostly White Lightning and Black Jack loads.

I used to love the G80 but I really don't want to spend $24.95 for a single motor so I'll probably fly more reloads in my MPR birds and in my AA oddrocs.

 

[n3tjm]

Just curious question? What did Aerotech do before they had the delay problem? Wouldn't it be cheaper doing that again? If the answer is paper casting tube... then to have a posistive sealing system, use o-rings like Kosdon did.

 

[r1dermon]

good thing i just scooped up a bunch of blue thunder motors. maybe i'll go get some more before prices get insane. there is so much demand for these motors, that i think AT is hurting themselves with the price hikes. there are now a bunch of alternatives. EM makes a great motor.

 

[daveyfire]

Well, I refuse to pay $24.95 for a G80.

Honestly!

Jeff, hurry up with those 29mm Loki loads!

 

[rstaff3]

G79 reloads are much more reasonable at $12. And yes, hurry up Jeff!

 

[n3tjm]

I am putting my 54mm's and 38/720 on auction. I will sell my other 38's when I use up the loads. I plan to keep my 29's though. Come springtime, I am going to order my Loki set, and several loads.

 

[DynaSoar]

Originally posted by Donaldsrockets
I'll still fly Aerotech motors but I'll probably use mostly White Lightning and Black Jack loads.

I used to love the G80 but I really don't want to spend $24.95 for a single motor so I'll probably fly more reloads in my MPR birds and in my AA oddrocs.

I want propulsion, not special effects. I fly rockets, not fireworks. I like the G80, but I'm not going to pay 25% more just because their special effects chemicals are costing more. And, I can't see suddenly paying 33% more for a G38. I can see upping prices across the board for overall price increases, and I do appreciate their not raising all prices just because chemicals for a few are costing more. But 33%? It looks more like they just decided "no more Econojet Gs".

I'd be buying all Ellis S/U motors, if the people that were supposedly selling them would respond to inquiries.

 

[jetra2]

I can't friggin' believe this crap...

Someone above said it best, and I'll paraphrase it...

Aerotech's kicking themselves in the @$$ with these price increases. I had never bought an Econojet when they were introduced at, what, $18-20? Now they want to charge me $25+ for two less powerful motors for almost double the cost of any others. NO FREAKING WAY!!!

I might of made it sound good last night in an AIM chat between several members of the forum...mods, feel more than free to edit it, I just have to vent!

First, we get regulated up the butt!
Second, we get charged up the butt!
I only have one butt!

(apologies)

I'm not going to buy motors from Aerotech just because they think they can be arrogant in believing they are the best motors and everyone has to buy THEIR motors. No way.

A note to Aerotech:
I'm not buying any BT or Redline propellants until you figure out what you did wrong and FIX IT!



Jason

 

[Chilly]

I saw this yesterday and couldn't believe it. No way am I paying over $25 for a single-use G. Glad I kept all those hobby RMS reloads...it'll be much cheaper to just buy a new casing to replace the one I lost.

 

[rstaff3]

Ditto!

 

[Chilly]

Been thinking about it and this is kind of sad...I don't understand the business enough to second-guess AT's pricing. But I know what's affordable and what's not. We may have reached the breaking point for a lot of people.

The troubling thing is I got into High Power by first getting into Mid Power, which was appealing with motors costing 8 to 12 bucks a flight. Double the cost and it makes you wonder if it will discourage new hobbyists. If I didn't already have a box full of reloads it would certainly make me think twice.

 

[r1dermon]

absolutely. i would definately NOT pay 25 dollars for a G motor. i BARELY am ok with paying 20 bucks. now they have lower thrust motors and are charging more for them...it just sounds like a bad business decision to me. especially for a company who has gone through a lot over the past couple years, they're just regaining their footing, why not continue to manufacture the old stuff as MUCH as possible and once supply meets demand(which it certainly doesnt right now) THEN start improving on the motors.

 

[Chilly]

From what I understand they were backed into a corner by available casing and nozzle materials. Again, I won't second-guess why they did it but will say with certainty that I am not willing to pay those prices whether they're full G's or not. RMS makes a lot more sense.

 

[solrules]

Originally posted by jetra2


A note to Aerotech:
I'm not buying any BT or Redline propellants until you figure out what you did wrong and FIX IT!

Jason

As far as the BT/RL thing goes.....they did and they are. The catalyst they use to accelerate the burn in the BT and RL also react with the delay element over time to create a fast burning delay, leading destroyed rockets. It just so happens that the non-reactive replacement catalyst is more expensive. They had to adjust the prices to match this raw materials cost increase. Not much the consumer can do about it except for deal with it or not buy redline/blue thunder propellant :/

 

[daveyfire]

Originally posted by solrules
The catalyst they use to accelerate the burn in the BT and RL also react with the delay element over time to create a fast burning delay, leading destroyed rockets.

I remember what they did to fix that problem: double bag the delays. On the SU motors, it is probably wise to switch over to the new catalyst.

Sure is a heck of a lot cheaper than most of the price increases we're seeing... it's not worth $100 on an M motor for a plastic baggie!

 

[Ray Dunakin]

I've been waiting for more G40's and G80's, but twenty-five bucks for a G motor is insane, especially if they have less total impulse than they used to have. Heck, I can get an H reload for a lot less than that!

I just wish they'd make an H reload that was slower burning, like an H40 or H50, with the White Lightning propellent.Even an H80 or H90 would be good. The faster H128's and H180's make it hard to get any in-flight photos while the motor is still burning.

 

[xenon]

I don't think I'll be burning any single use G's anytime soon. At 25 buck, no way, I'll spend $5 more to get a Ellis H. The reload prices are also getting waaaaaaaaaaay to high

 

[shockwaveriderz]

well folks what do u expect when you have a semi-monopoly situation? I'm sure that AT has 90%+ of the SU market, and at least 50-75% of the reload market. If you don't like the high(er) prices your choice as a consumer is to not purchase...this will result in inventory sitting on shelfs and the retailers hopefully will then mark it down after some time......or if sales dip on these new SU prices, AT will be forced to lower the prices ......alternatively, buy from competitors like CTI,Loki Research, and hybrids....and of course you could always, roll your own...... Its a shame that CTI/AMW together will not come out with some 24/29mm EFG SU or Reloads.....

I'm happy to see that Ellis Mtn has new SU motors out, so at least that provides a little competition, not much, but a little.....

at least we now have a more or less steady and increasing supply of both SU and RMS motors to choose from with new vendors ......

please don't take this as a criticism of AT....its just the reality of the marketplace.....You as the consumer will determine if these high(er) prices stick or if AT will be required to adjust based on sales......

 

[Garoq]

jetra2 said:

"I'm not going to buy motors from Aerotech just because they think they can be arrogant in believing they are the best motors and everyone has to buy THEIR motors."

shockwaveriderz said:

"well folks what do u expect when you have a semi-monopoly situation?"


I understand the degree of frustration among our customer base, but these statements are incorrect.

Have you ever wondered why more companies have not entered the SU EFG motor business? Or why those that have are struggling to supply enough motors to meet demand?

The retail prices of SU EFG composite motors have remained below inflation-adjusted prices for years, meaning that as costs have increased, profit margins have decreased. Also, with a relatively small market, it has been difficult to manufacture in the quantities necessary to obtain favorable volume pricing of materials. Therefore most manufacturers realized that there was little or no profit to be made after paying direct costs, overhead expenses and offering the level of discounts required to support national distribution, at the retail prices needed to be competitive.

To make matters worse, the availability of casing material (in the quantity and quality necessary) virtually dried up earlier this year.

We could not just "continue to manufacture the old stuff as MUCH as possible and once supply meets demand(which it certainly doesnt right now) THEN start improving on the motors." There was no "old stuff" left to manufacture!

For AeroTech the choice was to develop a new manufacturing technology (at great expense BTW), or get out of the SU EFG business entirely. Unfortunately, the materials cost for the new technology is significantly higher than the old. Those costs must be passed on to the consumer. A company must sell its products at a profit in order to survive (5-10% is typical, it would be nice to generate higher profits but it's extremely difficult in this industry). Run a company at inadequate or no profit (or worse, at a loss) for a sufficient amount of time and it will be out of business.

About a month ago, I looked at the costing of virtually every AeroTech single-use motor and reload kit and made adjustments to attempt to bring them all into the same relative profitability. I was reluctant to fully raise the SU EFG motor prices to those levels. The fact is that SU EFG motor prices should be increased even further to produce sufficient margins in the current distribution model. Even with the new retail pricing, a number of AeroTech/RCS products are still priced significantly below inflation, while the price of black powder motors has stayed ahead of inflation (see attached motor inflation calculator).

I will be monitoring the sales of SU EFG motors closely. If the current distribution model does not work at the new retail prices, it may be necessary to reduce dealer margins on some products or eliminate a level of distribution entirely (i.e., making 'G' motors dealer direct only). This will have the side effect of reducing motor availability, as many hobby shops only order through distributors.

A couple of points to consider:

- Street prices will usually be below suggested retail.
- The RMS was developed specifically to make the cost of propulsion more affordable. We expect that the sales of EFG RMS reload kits will increase as a result of the higher SU prices.

I hope this posting increases the level of awareness and understanding among our customers. Thank you for your continued patience and support!

Gary

--------------------------------------------------------
Gary Rosenfield
President, RCS Rocket Motor Components, Inc.

 

[BlueNinja]

May I ask why the 29/180-240 WL loads are growing more expensive? I remember when they were like $12.

 

[KermieD]

Thanks for the clarification and update, Gary.

 

[Garoq]

Blue_Ninja_150 said:

"May I ask why the 29/180-240 WL loads are growing more expensive? I remember when they were like $12."


As I said, our costs have gone up. AeroTech products must be priced to make a profit.

They are still an excellent value compared to the competition.

Gary

--------------------------------------------------------
Gary Rosenfield
President, RCS Rocket Motor Components, Inc.

 

[rstaff3]

I personally never thought that the cost increases were any less than legit and justified. You have to eat, pay your employees so they can eat, etc. Unfortunately, I still won't pay $24 for a G SU. I have moved to the G79 which is still reasonable for my budget. I wish there was a shorter delay (like -4).

BTW I got the $24 number in my head, but am not sure if it is accurate. My point is the move to the 29/120 is worthwhile.

 

[Garoq]

I'm sure you're aware that some dealers will sell the SU G motors for under $20.

The G40W is $23.95 retail as you noted.

The G reloads are a good value and I expect their sales numbers to increase. We will work to expand their variety and availability in the coming months. I will also look at testing a 4 second delay for the G79W.


Gary

--------------------------------------------------------
Gary Rosenfield
President, RCS Rocket Motor Components, Inc.

 

[rstaff3]

Thanks Gary, that would help me out a bunch. I also still would like to see Redline for that case.

 

[DynaSoar]

Originally posted by garoq
...I will be monitoring the sales of SU EFG motors closely. If the current distribution model does not work at the new retail prices, it may be necessary to reduce dealer margins on some products or eliminate a level of distribution entirely (i.e., making 'G' motors dealer direct only). This will have the side effect of reducing motor availability, as many hobby shops only order through distributors.

Ellis is dealer direct. Cut out a middle man and cut out a layer of fat.

...
- The RMS was developed specifically to make the cost of propulsion more affordable. We expect that the sales of EFG RMS reload kits will increase as a result of the higher SU prices.

Don't count on it. When I want S/U, that's what I'll buy. I suspect brand loyalty will turn on itself, and some higher prices will turn people against AT rather than redirect their buying inside. Steve Jobs lost his own company for 10 years in part over this.

 

[r1dermon]

i agree with dyna. there comes a point where a one time use object that last for a couple seconds gets way too expensive. and thats what's happening now. i dont understand how your material suppliers just dry up. did they go out of business? also, what i meant by saying manufacture the old stuff as much as possible, i was referring to the propellent. rather than putting in the new catalyst. which is 5 times more expensive. i could see the reason if you were doing it for safety or something. but what warrants the price hike? if its safer, then there are less CATOS and less motors that you have to replace, meaning that you not only make MORE money on a SU motor, but you also have less failure rates on those SU motors. personally i think this is going to send people to other products. just my opinion though.