AT RMS24/40 CATO killed my Big Daddy!

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OKTurbo

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The Big Daddy is dead....along with my RMS 24/40 case.:(

The last time I flew it I loaded up the 24/40 case with a F12-5J load. I went through 3 copperhead igniters before I got the thing to light off. The first two igniters puffed but no ignition. The 3rd lit it off, but even then it chuffed for a second or two before it came up to pressure.

Once it was going it had a nice flight....blackjack loads are just too cool! But the copperheads got me frustrated, so I decided to call Tim at Wildman and get me an Igniterman kit ordered.

Tim said that the Igniterman kit may not be my best bet. He would sell me one, but he said his "Little'un" ignitors could be used if they were built in...the igniter head won't fit in the F12 nozzle....I tried already since I have some of his igniters. He said to go ahead and build them in. I asked about the igniter getting stuck...he assured be they would get blown out.

No dice. I hit the button and BOOM. The the casing and with aft closure and nozzle came flying out. The forward closure, propellant grain, delay grain, and delay charge were left in the motor tube. My nice 24mm retainer and the back end of the MMT came flying out with the casing.

The Big Daddy is destroyed along with my 24/40 case. BIG BUMMER. Post Mortum revealed a chunk of the igniter stuck in the small F12 nozzle.

I'm calling Tim tomorrow. I'm not sure what he'll do...if anything...I loaded it and I'll take responsibility.

Is there an igniter other than the copperheads that I can use for the small nozzle 24mm loads like the F12?

Live and learn...

John
 

Donaldsrockets

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I have used magnelites in small motors with no problems like AT E15's and E30's.

The magnelites are a kit that comes with everything you need to dip the first 12 igniters. Afterwards, you just buy new wires and you get enough pyrogen mixture to make hundreds of igniters.

You can also use acetone to thin the mixture to make igniters that will fit into the nozzles of small SU and RMS motors.

Sorry to hear about the CATO, that sucks!!!
 

cls

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ouch! you can build another Big Daddy but where ya gonna get another 24mm RMS?!!!


lately I have been using "FireFly" ignitors, they are really tiny and even fit in 18mm RMS.
 

OKTurbo

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Cliff,

Where are you getting the FireFly ignitors?

I've seen the Magnelite kits made by Rocketflite and I've considered those also. I was thinking that the Igniterman kit may be better for making small ignitors since it uses a conductive pyrogen so there would be less "stuff" at the end of the igniter compared to the Magnelite's with the wrapped nichrome wire on the end. I have no experience making my own igniters BTW, so I'm looking for advice.

I've had excellent results using the Little'un ignitors on AT SU F21's. They fit in the nozzle fine and light the White Lightning propellant immediately.

Getting another 24/40 case shouldn't be a big deal. Unless they're all sold out. Like most things....it just takes more money.

John
 

loopy

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Yikes - that sucks. Hopefully Tim can help you out - I'll keep my fingers crossed for you. As for the ignitor question - I'm not sure. I have had good success with the copperheads. How are you prepping with the copperheads?

Loopy
 

OKTurbo

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"How are you prepping with the copperheads?"

First...I say a prayer...:D :D

I try to carefully straighten them out enough to insert in the motor. Insert into nozzle while rotating the motor to find the grain slot and keep inserting until it's at the top of the motor. (Either up against the masking tape on the end of the grain for E's or all the way up to the delay grain on the F's)

I bend it over at the nozzle and cover the nozzle with a small pc. of masking tape. This holds the copperhead in. Then I poke the masking tape with the end of a pencil to vent it a little.

I use two pieces of masking tape on the end of the ignitor...one on each side of the foil to hook up my alligator clips. The launch controller leads are tied off to the pad so the weight of the clips won't pull or twist on the copperhead ignitor.

I think I'm OK on hooking up the ignitors since each of the "no lights" the ignitor did puff. It just didn't have enough to get the BlackJack going. Maybe dipping the copperheads in some more pyrogen is the way to go. But the standard copperheads barely fit into the F12 nozzle as it is. A dipped copperhead may have to be built in...it is probably less likely to plug the nozzle though.

I'm still bummed about the whole thing. That was a nice looking rocket....

John
 

loopy

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Huh. That sounds pretty much how I do it, and if you're getting the ignitor to light, I'm not sure what to tell you. Sorry..

Loopy
 

OKTurbo

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I talked to Tim at Wildman and he's going to replace the case set for me. I told him what happened and he wanted to talk to Aerotech about the copperheads not lighting the blackjack propellant....plus he wanted to see if the Aerotech First Fire Jr's could be used on the F12 load.

Aerotech confirmed what we thought...the FF Jr's won't fit in the F12 nozzle. So I'm back to using copperheads. Aerotech suggested roughing up the grain slot near the fore end where the igniter will sit. This should help the copperhead get it lit off better. Plus AT thought that the batch of copperheads I used may have been weak on pyrogen. So Tim's sending me some extra Copperheads in addition to replacing the case and closures.

A happy ending to a sad story.

If you're looking for rocket stuff to buy. I would HIGHLY recommend Wildman Rocketry. You can't beat customer service like that.

John
 

Stymye

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that is great service! glad to hear it worked out

what about the twiggy igniters,, will they fit?
(I forget who makes them)
 

Larry

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John,
I haven't had a lot of trouble getting Blackjack to light with the copperhead,but I have used Firestar ignitors in the F12 loads. I use the smallest one FS-12 I think its called. I don't think you can get them any longer though. Robby's rocketry sold the pyrogen kit and wires, but I think he is out of the business.
I'm glad it all turned out ok for you. The Big Daddy on the F12J is cool :cool: with the black smoke.......Larry
 

Larry

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shockwaveriderz,

Thank you for the links:) I didn't think you could get the Firestar stuff anymore. Some of the last FS-12 wires I bought were from a hobby shop and they charged me $1.50 a piece for the stupid things. Thanks again.............Larry
 

bsexton

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I've used FireFly igniters on all of my composite motors up through G (they say H) and never had a problem. I don't even waste my time anymore with CopperHeads.

I got my FireFly igniters from Performance Hobbies.
 

n3tjm

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I never had much luck with conductive pyrogen. Also, I have seen Quickburst and Firefly igniters go bad. I had missfires with fireflys also.

I exclusively use Magnelite pyrogen. The default wires will not fit the nozzle of the F12. But there is ways around that. I either dip the copperheads (which works most of the time), or make thinner wires (or use firestar wires), which is time consuming, but that also works. works better than the copperheads to. I use my homemade or firestar wires for D9, D13, E11, and F12 motors all the time. Work great.

The best part about magnelite pyrogen... long shelf life... the pyrogen can dry out, all you need to do is add acetone, and its good as new. Also, the igniters so not go bad. I make a batch of igniters.. and they last for years. This here is important because up here in NH, it is very humid. Another good thing... you can double dip! Many pyrogens will not work right if you double dip. Of course... you will not need to double dip for your application... but it is a good thing to know.
 

gerbs4me

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OKturbo is right
Wildman has great prices too, Tim is a nice guy, yesterdy ordered H165's for the next launch:)
 

shreadvector

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1) Try Copperhead with a thin coating of the Magnelite pyrogen. Coat it, allow it to dry and then see if it still fits into the nozzle. If it does, then it will work great.

2) get the magnelite kit and use your own thin wires. Tiny wire-wrap type wire works good. I've also used one insulated lead and one bare wire lead to make them even skinnier. You will need a small length of nichrome at the tip to connect the lead and then you dip the tip and allow to dry.

I've even dipped Estes Solar Igniters and used them. You can only do so on motors where the tip will reach the port (top) of the motor.
 

hokkyokusei

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Originally posted by OKTurbo
Aerotech confirmed what we thought...the FF Jr's won't fit in the F12 nozzle. So I'm back to using copperheads. Aerotech suggested roughing up the grain slot near the fore end where the igniter will sit. This should help the copperhead get it lit off better. Plus AT thought that the batch of copperheads I used may have been weak on pyrogen. So Tim's sending me some extra Copperheads in addition to replacing the case and closures.
I would definately reconsider igniterman for the 24mm aerotech stuff. That's what I use. You have to take care to get them nice and thin, but it's not too hard if you use wire wrap wire.
 

n3tjm

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Originally posted by shreadvector
1) Try Copperhead with a thin coating of the Magnelite pyrogen. Coat it, allow it to dry and then see if it still fits into the nozzle. If it does, then it will work great.

2) get the magnelite kit and use your own thin wires. Tiny wire-wrap type wire works good. I've also used one insulated lead and one bare wire lead to make them even skinnier. You will need a small length of nichrome at the tip to connect the lead and then you dip the tip and allow to dry.

I've even dipped Estes Solar Igniters and used them. You can only do so on motors where the tip will reach the port (top) of the motor.
Don't worry if the head of the Magnelite coated copperhead fits the nozzle. The head of the copperhead WILL vaporized completely the instant the igniter fires. Assemble the motor with the igniter installed, obviously running the lead of the copperhead through the nozzle throat when assembling the motor.
 

karatekicker271

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Originally posted by cls



lately I have been using "FireFly" ignitors, they are really tiny and even fit in 18mm RMS.
Those work GREAT! The whole ignitor is the same diameter and im sure it wouldprobably fit in all motors.
 

andrewm57

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I do what shredvector said earlier. I smear some Igniterman pyrogen into the valleys of the Cooperhead, making sure I haven't increased the profile of the igniter. Always has worked for blackjacks; I've never had a problem with plain Copperheads for WL & BT loads.

I've also used QuickBurst Twiggy's, but they're a tight fit and make me a bit nervous.
 
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