Are Estes F15-6 and F15-8 motors still in production?

[Joshua F Thomas]

Don't the BP Es and Fs have a higher CATO rate? My local guys have told me to steer clear of them for that reason. More options in composite anyways.

 

[Nytrunner]

Don't the BP Es and Fs have a higher CATO rate? My local guys have told me to steer clear of them for that reason. More options in composite anyways.

The 24mm E9s had a poor CATO track record. (Something a bout high storage temperatures, case/grain delamination, etc). 24mm E12s are a bit better, but they had the occasional problem also. Estes has been retooling their machines that make the large BP motors, so Im hoping the issue is corrected.

 

[neil_w]

The 24mm E9s had a poor CATO track record. (Something a bout high storage temperatures, case/grain delamination, etc). 24mm E12s are a bit better, but they had the occasional problem also. Estes has been retooling their machines that make the large BP motors, so Im hoping the issue is corrected.

...and the 29mm E16s and F15s have always been fine, as far as I am aware. We'll see how they fare after the retooling.

 

[afadeev]

Don't the BP Es and Fs have a higher CATO rate? My local guys have told me to steer clear of them for that reason. More options in composite anyways.

Higher CATO rate than what?
Your can always check for yourself here: https://www.motorcato.org/search

Based on my personal experience, BP/Estes 24mm and 29mm motors (D's, E's, and F's), have been consistently reliable.
There were reported issues with now discontinued E9's, but I've personally never experienced any.
The downside to BP/Estes larger motor is the relatively low initial impulse and off-rod speed. Thus you need to be careful selecting which of your larger rockets are light enough to fly on them.

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[Joshua F Thomas]

Then the normal background rate? I dunno, like I said, the people I fly with warned me Es in particular had a higher rate of failure.

 

[afadeev]

Then the normal background rate? I dunno, like I said, the people I fly with warned me Es in particular had a higher rate of failure.

What is "normal"?
When you are given access to the actual data, spreading rumors is a second best option.

 

[neil_w]

Then the normal background rate? I dunno, like I said, the people I fly with warned me Es in particular had a higher rate of failure.

It's the 24mm E9s that had the worst reputation; the E12s seem better but still have issues to a lesser extent. The info on motorcato.org supports that, although it is tricky to draw conclusions from the data there.

Again, the 29mm motors have been fine.

While browsing the motorcato site, I did see a worrying trend regarding the A10s. Something to keep an eye on.

 

[Gerald]

I have had what I thought, a lot of CATO's but after a phone conversation with a Estes customer service rep she told me that 10% failure is "Normal" in model rocket engines. She said the shipping, storage and handling of them after leaving the factory has a lot to do with CATO's. A shipment left out on a loading dock in the heat then put into a cooler storage back room can affect the mix. A dropped case of engines can break the mixture. Dropped by a stock person putting them up on display can break them inside. Then there is consumer storage and handling.
She said for the amount of launches, (pre-Covid) that i was doing with "E" motors I was well within industry standards of 10% or a little less.
I also want to add here that Estes every single time, they made good on the rocket kit and motors that exploded in a CATO. My last CATO ruined my Saturn V 1/100 kit that they no longer have so I got a credit for it.

 

[Joshua F Thomas]

Damn, 10%? That's pretty high.

 

[crossfire]

10% that must really cut into Estes profits.

 

[neil_w]

10% sounds way too high to me.

 

[SecondRow]

I thought it would have been <1%.

 

[BEC]

It's the 24mm E9s that had the worst reputation; the E12s seem better but still have issues to a lesser extent. The info on motorcato.org supports that, although it is tricky to draw conclusions from the data there.

Again, the 29mm motors have been fine.

While browsing the motorcato site, I did see a worrying trend regarding the A10s. Something to keep an eye on.

I have had more A10s fail than E9s, E12s, E16s and F15s put together. More germaine to this thread, I have had exactly one 29mm Estes black powder motor fail. I’ve had a handful of 24mm motors blow. And this is out of at least a couple hundred flights per year in the past 10 years. I don’t fly many composites (though the Q-Jets are changing that, slowly) so the vast majority of all those flights has been black powder and of course the majority of those by far has been Estes motors.

 

[AeroTech]

I think they must have meant <1%. That's what we shoot for.

 

[beeblebrox]

I have had more A10s fail than E9s, E12s, E16s and F15s put together. More germaine to this thread, I have had exactly one 29mm Estes black powder motor fail. I’ve had a handful of 24mm motors blow. And this is out of at least a couple hundred flights per year in the past 10 years. I don’t fly many composites (though the Q-Jets are changing that, slowly) so the vast majority of all those flights has been black powder and of course the majority of those by far has been Estes motors.

These A10's seemed to work ok.... ALL 168 of them, plus one C6-7 (LDRS-1) Every Kernel Popped

 

[Alan15578]

I have had what I thought, a lot of CATO's but after a phone conversation with a Estes customer service rep she told me that 10% failure is "Normal" in model rocket engines. She said the shipping, storage and handling of them after leaving the factory has a lot to do with CATO's. A shipment left out on a loading dock in the heat then put into a cooler storage back room can affect the mix. A dropped case of engines can break the mixture. Dropped by a stock person putting them up on display can break them inside. Then there is consumer storage and handling.
She said for the amount of launches, (pre-Covid) that i was doing with "E" motors I was well within industry standards of 10% or a little less.
I also want to add here that Estes every single time, they made good on the rocket kit and motors that exploded in a CATO. My last CATO ruined my Saturn V 1/100 kit that they no longer have so I got a credit for it.

It is nice of Estes to share that explanation. Perhaps they should package motors like hard drives. When I buy motors at a retail store, I never know what the shipping, warehousing, and distribution history is. Is any retailer's supply chain more trustworthy than another, and if so which one? I think the best way is to buy motors directly from Estes during times that avoid temperature extremes, but I'm not sure months or weeks of the year are best.

 

[afadeev]

When I buy motors at a retail store, I never know what the shipping, warehousing, and distribution history is. Is any retailer's supply chain more trustworthy than another, and if so which one?

I've had 99+% success rate with Estes BP motors bought from Hobby Lobby.
Somehow, they either don't drop-kick Estes BP motor boxes as much doing transportation and stocking, don't allow them to heat cycle in the trucks, or just have better control of the supply chain from Estes to the store shelf.

With a 40% off coupon, their prices were (past tense) as good as anything available online, with no HazMat shipping surcharges.
Alas, HL went to "permanent" sale pricing on Estes gear (~25-35% off list), and their Estes inventory has been shrinking in my two local HL locations. The inventory situation may, or may not, change in the future, but the pricing "increase" is likely here to stay.