Are dip your own lighters regulated?

[J Blatz]

By no means do I want open a hornet’s nest here but would like some perspective on the dip your own “lighters” on the market. The kits appear to not require any licensing, but what about the assembled items and “combined ingredients” dip mix? Are they in a grey area or is there clarity on their status?

 

[UhClem]

If the pyrogen is on the ATF's list of explosives, they are regulated.

You should also look at what the ATF thinks of binary explosives. These are things that are shipped with the oxidizer and fuel separated but combined by the end user.

 

[user 35280]

According to Electric-Match, MJG Technologies the following product, No License is required.
https://electricmatch.com/rocketry/see/8/6/nichrome-e-match-kit

 

[waltr]

In general, Yes, most of the active ingredients are regulated.
But, like Black powder, which is regulated, small quantities may be purchased and stored without federal permits. Shipping however, has restrictions, like all of the motors we use.

If you are buying a single pyrogen igniter kit then no worries.

 

[prfesser]

If you drive at 58 mph will you be caught for driving over 55?

If you make your own starters will you be arested forth with?

The answers are pretty much the same.

 

[UhClem]

If you drive at 58 mph will you be caught for driving over 55?

If you make your own starters will you be arested forth with?

The answers are pretty much the same.

Is the penalty for speeding up to 10 years in prison?

 

[Handeman]

Is the penalty for speeding up to 10 years in prison?

Yes, in some states if it's reckless.

 

[tfish]

My take on it is..
Making them up at the launch site, and using them there..is legal. Making them up ahead of time, evolves storage and transportation which would ..not be legal..
Look up question 37 in the orange book.

I still have all my permits..

Tony

 

[prfesser]

Is the penalty for speeding up to 10 years in prison?

My point was that yes, you can be stopped, even arrested for driving 3 mph over the speed limit, but it's pretty unlikely unless the cop has a ulterior motive. Yes, you can be cited/arrested for dipping starters, but to the best of my knowledge it hasn't ever happened. And it's unlikely to happen unless the BATFE agent has some other motive.

And a good lawyer, or even a crappy one, should have no problem getting such a farfetched case thrown out. After all, the BATFE "definitions" of igniter and of e-match consist of two photos. One is an Estes starter and is labeled as "e-match", not regulated; the other is an e-match labeled "igniter" and is regulated.

It's the guvmint, it ain't spozed to make sense.

 

[MidOH]

Make your ignitors look like estes. Toss them in a estes box.

You can't travel with firewood either. Can't travel with fruit in some areas without special permits. Can't travel with an ancient blunderbuss. In New Jersey you can't marry an elephant.

There's all kinds of stupid laws. Half the people in this thread are felons if you dig deep enough.

 

[UhClem]

After all, the BATFE "definitions" of igniter and of e-match consist of two photos. One is an Estes starter and is labeled as "e-match", not regulated; the other is an e-match labeled "igniter" and is regulated.

There is no ATF definition of an igniter. What is important is the material which is why I pointed to the list of explosives.

And there was a kerfuffle some time ago over the term e-match. (Daveyfire, Oxral, etc.) Some in the fireworks industry thought they weren't igniters and thus not regulated. The ATF stomped on that. I recall seeing something in the ATF explosives newsletter but it has been a decade or two so perhaps not.

Now we have the MJG ematch which passed ATF scrutiny. Obviously because it is made from something which isn't on the list of explosives.

 

[Frederocket]

By no means do I want open a hornet’s nest here but would like some perspective on the dip your own “lighters” on the market. The kits appear to not require any licensing, but what about the assembled items and “combined ingredients” dip mix? Are they in a grey area or is there clarity on their status?

Are the igniters in a commercial HPR motor regulated or require licensing at the consumer level? Knowing the answer to that question and, "if you apply common sense to your question, you have the answer"..

 

[Steve Shannon]

By no means do I want open a hornet’s nest here but would like some perspective on the dip your own “lighters” on the market. The kits appear to not require any licensing, but what about the assembled items and “combined ingredients” dip mix? Are they in a grey area or is there clarity on their status?

Everyone who ever claims not to want to open a hornet’s nest knowingly asks a question that they understand may do exactly that.
The single most important thing to remember is not to be stupid. ATF doesn’t care as long as you don’t do something stupid with your newly assembled items. They have other priorities. Like the 3 mph speed limit violation in Terry’s post they just have no resources or interest in prosecuting rocketry hobbyists who do nothing to attract unwanted attention:
Don’t sell them.
Only make what you need.
Don’t talk about them in social media.
Don’t set yourself on fire.

When testing them, test from a safe distance. Make sure no other flammable materials are anywhere near.

 

[J Blatz]

Thanks for the insights all.

You are correct Steve, but I am pleased that all have been civil. Not all perspectives align but we should always be cool to each other.

 

[jbr]

I use BIC lighters

 

[icyclops]

My take on it is..
Making them up at the launch site, and using them there..is legal. Making them up ahead of time, evolves storage and transportation which would ..not be legal..
Look up question 37 in the orange book.

I still have all my permits..

Tony

Interesting

 

[ksaves2]

Ummmmmm, Keep your mouth shut. Fly at appropriately waivered launch sites and nobody will know the difference. If you really want to make your own "motor starters", you'll need to research online and then source the components and experiment. Keep your distance as I burned my ear with a popping low current igniter for staging and it ended up on the inside of my ear. Not in the canal itself but in the "pinna". Dealt with scabs/crusts for a couple of months. Stupidhead was testing an ARTS 2 through a computer interface so I was close to the igniter. Popped and hit me in the ear. I fortunately was able to bat it away with my arm without burning my arm. I have a jpg of my ear buried somewhere on my computer.
If you test your starters from a distance, you'll have no problem as I re-resorted to after my mishap.

Kurt

 

[Brian H.]

From my understanding:
Officially - Anything regulated by the ATF can be made and used by a user onsite, but can NOT be sold, stored, transported.

Unofficially - If your endeavors are not "nefarious", the ATF will not bother you.

 

[waltr]

Not exactly correct.

Black Powder IS Regulated but you may buy it, have it shipped to you (haz mat fee), store it, and transport it to the shooting range, rocket launch site and to go hunting.

Just because it is regulated does not mean it is Illegal to have, etc.

 

[boomtube-mk2]

In New Jersey you can't marry an elephant.

Even if you're another elephant? What about a hippopotamus?

Don’t set yourself on fire.

That's a good answer no matter what the question is.

 

[MidOH]

From my understanding:
Officially - Anything regulated by the ATF can be made and used by a user onsite, but can NOT be sold, stored, transported.

Unofficially - If your endeavors are not "nefarious", the ATF will not bother you.

Nefarious is my middle name.

 

[WILDMANRS]

Everyone who ever claims not to want to open a hornet’s nest knowingly asks a question that they understand may do exactly that.
The single most important thing to remember is not to be stupid. ATF doesn’t care as long as you don’t do something stupid with your newly assembled items. They have other priorities. Like the 3 mph speed limit violation in Terry’s post they just have no resources or interest in prosecuting rocketry hobbyists who do nothing to attract unwanted attention:
Don’t sell them.
Only make what you need.
Don’t talk about them in social media.
Don’t set yourself on fire.

When testing them, test from a safe distance. Make sure no other flammable materials are anywhere near.

You wont miss any opportunity to try and make a new rule .
No matter who or how it hurts someone .
take some of your own advise .
Don't talk about it on social media

 

[cerving]

Don't talk about it on social media

^^^ This.

We're hobbyists, who happen to occasionally use very small amounts of regulated materials in our hobby (i.e. typically measured in single grams). Don't make it sound like we're a bunch of law-breaking pyromaniacs... the Feds have bots crawling social media looking for references to stuff like this, and we'd just as soon not attract attention for all the wrong reasons.

 

[SharkWhisperer]

Not exactly correct.

Black Powder IS Regulated but you may buy it, have it shipped to you (haz mat fee), store it, and transport it to the shooting range, rocket launch site and to go hunting.

Just because it is regulated does not mean it is Illegal to have, etc.

True, but technically, once you use commercial powder in any application that it was not originally intended for (firearms and cannons) then you enter permit territory... And yes, this includes making NC lacquer from smokeless.

While at the same time, unless there are prohibitive local regs, you can happily sit at the launch site and screen mix (or short-mill) a batch of acceptable powder (charcoal and mixing intimacy are key) with a rock tumbler plugged into your car's accessory switch, alcohol moisten and screen-granulate it, dry it in the sun for an hour, and be dipping and drying enhanced "starters" by the end of the morning. Can even add a little metal before granulating--never in a mill; screen mixing it in after milling is pretty safe. No transport, no sales, leftovers discarded safely or destroyed (water) before departure, and you're good to go for the day. Simple, but a lot of work just to perk up a few launches for the day.

That said, there are not hundreds of model rocket enthusiasts rottiing in the clink for souping up their "starters" or repurposing commercial powders w/o an appropriate license, at least to the best of my knowledge. Anybody gone missing lately from your launch site? Not really a high priority for LEOs. Probably more risky to order those orange-wire Chicom doodads online...

 

[Frederocket]

Everyone who ever claims not to want to open a hornet’s nest knowingly asks a question that they understand may do exactly that.
The single most important thing to remember is not to be stupid. ATF doesn’t care as long as you don’t do something stupid with your newly assembled items. They have other priorities. Like the 3 mph speed limit violation in Terry’s post they just have no resources or interest in prosecuting rocketry hobbyists who do nothing to attract unwanted attention:
Don’t sell them.
Only make what you need.
Don’t talk about them in social media.
Don’t set yourself on fire.

When testing them, test from a safe distance. Make sure no other flammable materials are anywhere near.

While I agree with you in principle and practice on the first three don't suggestions, as a result of recent events, the last don't is insensitive. I know you did not mean it as such, but it is none the less.

 

[heada]

While I agree with you in principle and practice on the first three don't suggestions, as a result of recent events, the last don't is insensitive. I know you did not mean it as such, but it is none the less.

As someone who has recieved 3rd degree burns on 40% of both hands and spent hours in a burn unit at the hospital due to poor safety practices, the "don't set yourself on fire" is a valid don't and not insensitive.

 

[Frederocket]

As someone who has recieved 3rd degree burns on 40% of both hands and spent hours in a burn unit at the hospital due to poor safety practices, the "don't set yourself on fire" is a valid don't and not insensitive.

You are just plain wrong... All that needed to be said was in the last sentence of Steve's post, nothing more, i.e.. "When testing them, test from a safe distance. Make sure no other flammable materials are anywhere near".

 

[ksaves2]

Testing at a safe distance is the key here. I once used some micro-fine ebay thermite components for starter testing. Simple copper thermite powder 1.7 grams total in a micro centrifuge plastic canister that had a standard 12V starter inserted and epoxied in a hole in the bottom. No accelerant added whatsoever. Used a wireless 12V launch panel to ignite and I was about 40 feet away.
The thermite went up in an accelerated fashion and sounded like an M80 or silver salute report. I dragged all the hardware into the garage in case someone called the police. (They didn't show up.)
I tried to repeat the experiment two times more and wasn't able to replicate it. There was a brown stain in the driveway for years where the instantly vaporized canister was laying. (Until I had the driveway replaced.)
The two components were very finely ground and I suspect were in a mixed, suspended state that allowed for rapid ignition to occur in that one instance.
I was very careful thereafter to get thermite components that were coarser ground. Although, I use some of the original stuff in starter dip and had no problems with it. It was the raw powder that was the issue.
Bottom line is when experimenting, do it from a far distance away until one is certain how stuff is going to behave.
Kurt

 

[prfesser]

Testing at a safe distance is the key here. I once used some micro-fine ebay thermite components for starter testing. Simple copper thermite powder 1.7 grams total in a micro centrifuge plastic canister that had a standard 12V starter inserted and epoxied in a hole in the bottom. No accelerant added whatsoever. Used a wireless 12V launch panel to ignite and I was about 40 feet away.

Copper thermite is notorious for not liking confinement. My understanding--I've never used it but have spoken with those who have--is that confinement greater than a layer or so of cigarette paper can often go boom. I'd rather wait for a second or three for the motor to come to full pressure than to use a starter that has a fair chance of destroying motor and/or rocket.

A good friend of mine would often retort with "Kiss my thumb!" when irritated. He was working with copper thermite and thought he was safe. They had to graft skin on the thumb. Three guesses as to where the skin came from....

Best -- Terry

 

[Rocketjunkie]

Making explosives for your own use does not require a license. If you transfer to another person then a license IS required. Taking to a launch is a gray area.