Anyone else not give a DAMN about the NFL this year?

[manixFan]

The difference between "Fragility" and "Loving one's country more than a game" is quite large

The fragility of people who equate a peaceful protest, protected by the very Constitution this country is founded on, that does not disrupt or delay a competition, as being against what this country stands for, is astonishing. My uncles fought in WWII for the very right those athletes are expressing. If you really feel that America can't survive a few football players taking a knee, what does that say about your opinion of America as a country? Is your notion of America that it is so fragile that it can't survive a few players protesting what they see as an injustice? That's a serious question, as I'd like to think as a country we are far stronger than that.

You should love the fact that they are free to protest in this country without repercussions from the government. Loving this country should not mean punishing an entire franchise for allowing their players to express themselves as part of the principles this country is founded upon, and which so many have died to protect.


Tony

 

[Sooner Boomer]

It is our AFL Grand Final this weekend. QUOTE]

Hope I can catch that. It's hit-or-miss for coverage over here.

 

[Michael L]

The fragility of people who equate a peaceful protest, protected by the very Constitution this country is founded on, that does not disrupt or delay a competition, as being against what this country stands for, is astonishing. My uncles fought in WWII for the very right those athletes are expressing. If you really feel that America can't survive a few football players taking a knee, what does that say about your opinion of America as a country? Is your notion of America that it is so fragile that it can't survive a few players protesting what they see as an injustice? That's a serious question, as I'd like to think as a country we are far stronger than that.

You should love the fact that they are free to protest in this country without repercussions from the government.


Tony

It's definitely a double edged argument. You're coming from the opposite end of what you are questioning...

What is it exactly that they are accomplishing and how does it involve the national anthem and flag?

By accomplish I mean what change are they affecting? Have I missed the announcement from police unions that they saw a football player on his knee during the national anthem so they are going to use marshmallow bats and furry handcuffs when they arrest a violent criminal from now on?

And I don't know how a person can't know about the people protecting us from statues, forests that until now haven't been burned, businesses that are owned by the people that they are supposedly protesting for being looted and burned, etc, etc. Do they really accomplish anything when they take a knee?

Again, what exactly is it that they accomplish? Nothing...

Wouldn't it make more sense for the athletes to conduct their protest in the Loop, Fuller Park, West Garfield Park, and Washington Park areas of Chicago (there are plenty of places in LA, NY, etc to choose from)?

 

[mtnmanak]

Couldn't care less about what people protest about, whatever their cause is. Everyone has a bone to pick with someone else now in this country. Right, left, middle, sideways, clueless, whatever you claim to be. Everyone seems to have a grievance. If you want to air your grievances publicly, it is a free country - go for it. I am almost 100% sure that whatever your cause is, I am not your target audience, so have fun. As long as you aren't causing injury or danger to me or my family, I am happy for your ability to have the time to speak out in public.

As for pro sports, my biggest issue is the amount of time a game takes. 3+ hours to watch 60 minutes of play time? Seems like a waste of time to me. I admit DVR takes some of the sting out of it, but then it just seems like work. At some point during one my Iraq deployments, AFN started showing the games later in the week with no commercials and just the plays (no huddles, time outs, etc). I did enjoy watching those broadcasts - just pure game play and none of the fluff and no work to fast forward. Not sure if that is a product available from the NFL or something AFN did, but that was a great way to enjoy pro sports.

 

[Pat Gordzelik]

What is it exactly that they are accomplishing and how does it involve the national anthem and flag?

Excellent question. Especially since a vast majority of them have not a clue why they are looting and burning and destroying property in other "arenas of peaceful protesting".

For instance,
We have heard from our Pro Basketball political expert LeBron James. Now let's hear from our Pro Football political sages:

NEW YORK – In a recent polling of 585 NFL players, nearly all of them were unsure of exactly what they are protesting. Here's a sampling of responses to the question: "What are you protesting by kneeling during the National Anthem?"

· "Pretty sure it's against Nazis - especially the white ones."
· "We're protesting America becoming capitalistic instead of equal."
· "I'm protesting against Trump saying black live don't matter."
· "We're against global warming and the police…"
· "We're showing the world that we care about, ah …things such as... such as...ah, freedom from suppression?"
· "Me and my fellow players are protesting the Constitution of Independence because of what it does to people of color."
· "We are displaying our right to stand up by kneeling for our beliefs." (I like this one)
· "We are protesting Trump, because he, you know, keeping the black man down."
· "Myself is kneeling to show that just because I'm American don't mean I got to act like one."

NOTE: ALL ABOVE COMMENTS ARE FROM NATIONAL FOOTBALL LEAGUE PLAYERS WITH FOUR YEARS OF AN AMERICAN COLLEGE “EDUCATION”. AVERAGE PLAYER SALARY: $1,900,000

My guess is that without football these "college grads" would be lucky to find employment much above minimum wage.

 

[PatD]

With all due respect it is in no way "Real Simple" for those who fought for our country or for their relatives. For me personally I have relatives buried in the ground that died fighting for their country and other relatives who carry the scars of battle with them every minute of every day.

The principal "symbols" of our country are the flag and the National Anthem, and when I see people disrespecting those, well... if that doesn't become an issue for you, I guess that says a lot about you.

Not to mention those palatial stadiums they play in are paid for, in part, by the taxpayers of the cities and states. So "just not watching it" doesn't account for your money that's already been spent.

That's my take anyway.

View attachment 435412

My condolences for your loss. I spent 21 years in the Army as a tanker. My last hurrah was Desert Storm as part of Taskforce Tusker. Should have been dead a few times in my career but I was always lucky that way.

I don't care for people that disrespect the symbols of this country but I defend their right to free speech. However, the right to free speech does not make you immune to the response of others due to your actions. Personally I do not understand why a businessperson would allow employees to protest on company time.

As far as politicians spending tax money on stadiums etc, they do serve at the pleasure of the voters and can be removed from office.

Stay safe, have a good day.

 

[jqavins]

I enjoy watching a good football game every now and then. I don't care who's playing or who wins - never have - as long as it's a well played game.

Interesting fact about the kneeling thing: Kaepernick's original plan had been to remain seated during the national anthem. It was a team mate who was also a veteran who told him that getting out of his seat but kneeling rather than standing would be a respectful way of achieving the same thing. For all the crap he received about disrespecting the flag, kneeling was in fact the respectful form of protest.

And finally, my own opinion is that the flag is not sacred. It's a symbol of our country and what our country stands for. When the flag itself is placed above those values for which it stands then it means nothing, and you might as well shred it.

 

[manixFan]

Excellent question. Especially since a vast majority of them have not a clue why they are looting and burning and destroying property in other "arenas of peaceful protesting".

For instance,
We have heard from our Pro Basketball political expert LeBron James. Now let's hear from our Pro Football political sages:

NEW YORK – In a recent polling of 585 NFL players, nearly all of them were unsure of exactly what they are protesting. Here's a sampling of responses to the question: "What are you protesting by kneeling during the National Anthem?"

· "Pretty sure it's against Nazis - especially the white ones."
· "We're protesting America becoming capitalistic instead of equal."
· "I'm protesting against Trump saying black live don't matter."
· "We're against global warming and the police…"
· "We're showing the world that we care about, ah …things such as... such as...ah, freedom from suppression?"
· "Me and my fellow players are protesting the Constitution of Independence because of what it does to people of color."
· "We are displaying our right to stand up by kneeling for our beliefs." (I like this one)
· "We are protesting Trump, because he, you know, keeping the black man down."
· "Myself is kneeling to show that just because I'm American don't mean I got to act like one."

NOTE: ALL ABOVE COMMENTS ARE FROM NATIONAL FOOTBALL LEAGUE PLAYERS WITH FOUR YEARS OF AN AMERICAN COLLEGE “EDUCATION”. AVERAGE PLAYER SALARY: $1,900,000

My guess is that without football these "college grads" would be lucky to find employment much above minimum wage.

I searched for the source of that poll and could not find it anywhere, other than on blog posts and forums.

Oh, wait, I found it:

https://www.worldnewsbureau.com/2017/09/97-of-nfl-players-unsure-of-what-theyre-protesting.html
I'll let the reader draw their own conclusion about the veracity of the poll results based on the website itself.


Tony

PS: for those who don't get it: "This site is run by Janick Murray-Hall. Its disclaimer states, "World News Daily Report assumes all responsibility for the satirical nature of it's articles and for the fictional nature of their content. All characters appearing in the articles in this website—even those based on real people—are entirely fictional and any resemblance between them and any person, living, dead or undead, is purely a miracle."

The epitome of 'Fake News'.

 

[Bat-mite]

Can't believe this thread hasn't gotten locked. Good job remaining civil, all.

My dad fought in WWII, settled in Maryland after the war. Was a proud Johnny U. and Baltimore Colts fan. He and I shared lots of memories of Colts and Orioles games. I used to sit snuggled with him to watch sports. Players kneeling is not enough to take that away from me. Personally, i don't care i they kneel. I think it's foolish, but it really amounts to nothing in the grand scheme of things.

Now I watch games with my kids snuggled up with me. I am not giving that up because some silly people kneel before the game.

 

[Pat Gordzelik]

I searched for the source of that poll and could not find it anywhere, other than on blog posts and forums.

Oh, wait, I found it:

https://www.worldnewsbureau.com/2017/09/97-of-nfl-players-unsure-of-what-theyre-protesting.html
I'll let the reader draw their own conclusion about the veracity of the poll results based on the website itself.


Tony

PS: for those who don't get it: "This site is run by Janick Murray-Hall. Its disclaimer states, "World News Daily Report assumes all responsibility for the satirical nature of it's articles and for the fictional nature of their content. All characters appearing in the articles in this website—even those based on real people—are entirely fictional and any resemblance between them and any person, living, dead or undead, is purely a miracle."

The epitome of 'Fake News'.

Ah yes, good ole "World News Daily". I kinda figured it was from the Babylon Bee, another fake news site that openly admits to being fake news, using satire and humour to make a point. The "poll" was sent to me by a friend of mine who is a high school principle. We were discussing the abject failure of the educational system to turn out educated students. You don't have to be a teacher or an employer to realize the sad state of education in the US today.
Thanks for the link Tony. I'll be sure to go there for a laff when I don't have access to CNN.

Pat G

 

[Banzai88]

 

[manixFan]

Ah yes, good ole "World News Daily". I kinda figured it was from the Babylon Bee, another fake news site that openly admits to being fake news, using satire and humour to make a point. The "poll" was sent to me by a friend of mine who is a high school principle. We were discussing the abject failure of the educational system to turn out educated students. You don't have to be a teacher or an employer to realize the sad state of education in the US today.
Thanks for the link Tony. I'll be sure to go there for a laff when I don't have access to CNN.

Pat G

Hold up, you're saying you knew it was probably fake yet you posted it anyway as a way to advance your argument about the players? And after seeing the site you find it funny? Really?

Can't lie, I am disillusioned as to where we are as a country right now.


Tony

(I am climbing back on the wagon for good, no more posts until after the election!)

 

[Pat Gordzelik]

Hold up, you're saying you knew it was probably fake yet you posted it anyway as a way to advance your argument about the players? And after seeing the site you find it funny? Really?

Can't lie, I am disillusioned as to where we are as a country right now.


Tony

(I am climbing back on the wagon for good, no more posts until after the election!)

Are you trying to tell me that the Labron James lead in did not clue you into upcoming satire?
You need to lighten up dude. Being rolled up that tite could break something.
Peace rocket bro..

Pat G

 

[ThirstyBarbarian]

I used to say I couldn't care less about professional sports, but every year I actually find I CAN care less. And it's not the politics. In fact, I find the politics more interesting than the games. The WNBA is a real interesting case.

 

[ThirstyBarbarian]

Are you trying to tell me that the Labron James lead in did not clue you into upcoming satire?
You need to lighten up dude. Being rolled up that tite could break something.
Peace rocket bro..

Pat G

It wasn't obvious it was a satire because of the way you presented it. You led into it wit your own statement, and then you finished up with a conclusion about it. It looked like you were supporting an argument or trying to make a real point, but it was just fake. That's not on honest way to make a point.

 

[dr wogz]

it also implies that 'we know something'; something that you know and laugh at..

 

[Steven]

When I started getting rid of the actual sources of complaints in taking a proactive action by removing these sources from our lives, we really have been finding a clearer path to the things we cherish most, not based on following the herd but by being true to our own hearts. A true sense of pride can only be found in personal accomplishments that display the integrity of a person. Standing on other's shoulders won't do this.

 

[o1d_dude]

Gave up on professional sports several years ago and have found myself with an abundance of time to actually accomplish things I’d not been putting any effort into getting done.

 

[lakeroadster]

My condolences for your loss. I spent 21 years in the Army as a tanker. My last hurrah was Desert Storm as part of Taskforce Tusker. Should have been dead a few times in my career but I was always lucky that way.

I don't care for people that disrespect the symbols of this country but I defend their right to free speech. However, the right to free speech does not make you immune to the response of others due to your actions. Personally I do not understand why a businessperson would allow employees to protest on company time.

As far as politicians spending tax money on stadiums etc, they do serve at the pleasure of the voters and can be removed from office.

Stay safe, have a good day.

Thanks for your service. Much respect.

 

[jloveless]

I lost interest since the whole kneeling thing & simply don't feel the interest returning....

Since they started being political I dislike all of the sports.

 

[John Kemker]

Never have give a damn about the NFL except for the Oilers (before they moved to Tennessee) and now the Texans. That's only because I was born in Houston.

 

[ThirstyBarbarian]

My apologies then. In my circle and generation, when we are talking about politics in general, we don't get wrapped up on every word or nuance. Especially in a hobby scenario amongst friends of like interests. Which I thot this was. In the words of John Denver, "life is just a funny funny riddle". I guess stuff here ain't so funny anymore. My error for assuming that by the name of this forum "The watering hole" it was informal bs and friendly discussion.
I'll strive not to make that mistake again.

So, in the spirit of what I just said, here is some humour from PJ O'Rourke, of American Consequences..

Enjoy. I did. So maybe some of you may just want to ignore it.

It doesn't matter who wins. an excerpt.

Both candidates are one-term presidents. Trump because he's at the end of his term limits. Biden because he's at the end of his rope. Second-term presidencies are famous for failing to do much more than what was done in the first term. Single-term presidencies are famous for failing, period.

But the main reason for my not caring much about how this election turns out is the way I see my country... I personally don't view America as an enormous ship of state. Or, if it is, it's one where we all get to jump ship whenever we want. Americans are not "all in the same boat" on a single vessel headed to a certain destination by way of a particular route. America is a flotilla of small craft – 328 million of them. Our freedom allows us to each have our own skiff, dinghy, canoe, kayak, barge, freighter, yacht, or jet ski. Some are fast and powerful. Others are a little leaky with only one oar. But we are all our own commanders... And we go where we damn well please.

The candidates are little figures on a distant shore. At best they might build a lighthouse, and at worst they're just beach bums. But however they turn out, when we hoist our Jolly Rogers and head out to sea, they'll be landlocked in the White House.

Like I said, the problem in the earlier post was the way you framed it as real responses from players, not as an excerpt from a satirical article. The objection isn’t to humor or satire, it was to the way you seemed to present something false as true. Just to beat the dead horse a bit more, this is the way you ended the post:

NOTE: ALL ABOVE COMMENTS ARE FROM NATIONAL FOOTBALL LEAGUE PLAYERS WITH FOUR YEARS OF AN AMERICAN COLLEGE “EDUCATION”. AVERAGE PLAYER SALARY: $1,900,000

My guess is that without football these "college grads" would be lucky to find employment much above minimum wage.

So it seems like a claim that the stupid statements are real, which turns out not to be true, and you are drawing a conclusion about the intelligence of the people involved, which isn’t really supported. And you didnt’t lead into it by saying it’s an excerpt from an article, so it just comes off as you personally making a bad-faith argument.

You could have saved a little controversy be introducing it as a humor piece you got in an email or an excerpt from an article, like you did in the post I replied to above. That one you attributed. That’s a better way to do it.

And just one more slam to be sure that horse is really dead, even now that I know the original piece was meant as humor, it’s just not very funny to me. The joke plays on the stereotype that these players are stupid by making up stupid things they supposedly said and putting stupid words in their mouths. The statements aren’t funny on their own. It requires a foregone conclusion based on a stereotype about the players for the statements to seem funny, so that kind of joke only works for certain types of people.

 

[Pat Gordzelik]

It wasn't obvious it was a satire because of the way you presented it. You led into it wit your own statement, and then you finished up with a conclusion about it. It looked like you were supporting an argument or trying to make a real point, but it was just fake. That's not on honest way to make a point.

My apologies then. In my circle of friends, and in my generation, we don't hinge on every word or nuance in an arena we thot was between friends of like interests. I assumed (wrongly, I suppose) that the name of this forum, "The waterin hole" was merely an exchange of ideas between rocket friends who had a sense of humour. In the words of John Denver, "life is just a funny funny riddle". Obviousily life ain't that funny here. I shall not make that same mistake again.

Much like you, Thirsty Barbarian, I find current issues of the day very entertaining. I mean, between inane tweets from one who shall not be named (I got deleted twice today because I was deemed political so I am somewhat gun shy) and melt downs from folks who think the sky is falling, life is a hoot in this constitutional republic.

Hey,how about those ......

 

[Pat Gordzelik]

Say folks. Now that I got lectured twice by our intrepid net nanny at this here thirsty waterin hole on proper Netiquette, is there a place where I can check out the rules of comrade compliance in these parts?
I grow weary of getting lectured by younguns and censored by millenials, so I am eagerly seeking out the road to compliance in this sandbox. I understand this is not first amendment territory, I freely submit to the fact that this is a forum exempt from that concept, because it is afterall, private property, not public owned (Or am I wrong?)
A link would be most appreciated. And I promise once I know the rules, I shall adhere to them to the letter.
Though I may wonder why some, shall we say, leanings, are ok, others rigorously exterminated.

Thanks so much in advance.

Pat Gordzelik

 

[tim cubbedge]

A link would be most appreciated. And I promise once I know the rules, I shall adhere to them to the letter.
Though I may wonder why some, shall we say, leanings, are ok, others rigorously exterminated.

We don’t police 24/7. Some get reported, some are just monitored. Here’s your link to rules. Thanks!
https://www.rocketryforum.com/threads/rocketry-forum-rules-and-posting-guidelines.151426/

 

[Michael L]

If nothing else... it's almost a miracle that this stayed civil. I never did get an answer lol

 

[NateB]

If nothing else... it's almost a miracle that this stayed civil. I never did get an answer lol

Civil debate is healthy, enlightening, and good for our communities. I thought it was a lost art, but I have a little hope.

 

[Pat Gordzelik]

We don’t police 24/7. Some get reported, some are just monitored. Here’s your link to rules. Thanks!
https://www.rocketryforum.com/threads/rocketry-forum-rules-and-posting-guidelines.151426/

Thank you Tim.
I am relatively, compared to most of your clientele, new, to this forum. I was a personal friend of Darrel Mobley of Rocketry Planet, and of course, a TRA board member for many years. I have actually been involved in hobby rocketry since the 60's (wish I would have kept my old NAR number), and have been involved in cutting edge projects for decades. I designed and built the motor for the first totally successful P powered project in TRA history, (Project Aurora) and helped Frank Uroda develop www.flyrockets.com.
https://www.flyrockets.com/credits.aspQuentin Wilson and Homer Hickham are/were personal close friends of mine. Indeed, Quentin's, whom I spent countless hours hoisting brews and developing and firing solid rocket motor designs, family asked me to launch his personal remains in a Miss Riley rocket that he and I built for the movie, October Sky, over my ranch in Texas.
Which we did last year after his passing.
I have served this hobby and my country for many years. The one thing I confess to being guilty of is that I am highly patriotic to both. Hobby wise, I fought the ATF in DC to keep our hobby enencumbered from onerous regulations.
I am 65 years old. I started with nothing. My Father died when I was 7 years old. My Grandmother raised me and my twin brother in a 3 room stucco house with an outhouse, no electricity, a windmill for water, and all the food we could eat, providing we fed the chickens and cared for the cattle on her 160 acres.
Today, after creating (and selling) three sucessful companies, and caring for my ranch, I would like to again give to this hobby.
Just looking for a venue that is open to my assistance and resources.
Currently, not feeling too welcome here.

 

[Michael L]

Currently, not feeling too welcome here.

I'm a shade younger (62). I've been on forums since they were dial up "message forums" (for all the youngins that was the 80's, the IBM PC clones were king, and 9600 baud over a phone line was a screaming fast data link lol). One thing you will always get from a forum is an opinion If you want some real fun hang out on a motorcycle forum and then go meet them in person.

I'm new to HP rocketry, new to the forum, and a fellow Texan. I wouldn't let this one little topic get you down. I usually steer clear of topics like this one but I really don't have a dog in this hunt. I usually have too much other stuff to do than watch TV. Actually, I never watch TV... I mostly just wanted to know if anyone knew what was accomplished. Nope...

 

[tim cubbedge]

Pat, thanks for both your military service and commitment to this hobby. Not all of us can make that claim. I really hope you’re not put off by this thread. I’m sure your expertise will be welcome in the real rocketry forums. Moderators do their best to keep it civil and have others follow the rules.
Again, thanks for your service & welcome.